Hello all, first post / longtime lurker on here. I have really appreciated all I've learned from following threads on here -- much appreciated.
I've had three speakers in my house for a few years, and have learned that transient response is the quality I value most. I'm researching upgrade options and would appreciate recommendations on brands.
Currently I have KLH Model 3s, JBL 4305Ps, and JBL Studio 590s. The sealed KLHs are far superior in transient response / speed / attack. The 4305Ps are pretty good (I'm assuming because they're active) and the 590s, while they do a lot of things well, are relative laggards.
I am assuming that on average a sealed design at any given price point will outperform a ported speaker in this area of performance, but I'm sure there are important exceptions.
I'm also curious if more expensive ported horn speakers (Klipsch heritage line, or the JBL 4349 for example) may deliver equal or better in transient response compared to a lower cost sealed speaker because they're using better drivers, crossovers, etc.
Transients are impulse responses in relation to steady state and it can be measured. Impulse response is to a specific input from base level. It is used to check time alinement. It is not related to distortion but most systems with good transient response are also low distortion. It comes down to good power to weight ratio of the drivers with pistonic motion.
A system that can make a square wave at the desired SLP in theory has perfect impulse/transient response. Most amps have no problem with this and most all speakers fail this test. I have seen headphones (single driver, no crossover, low output) pass.
In the context of high-end audio, the term transient response refers to the ability of an audio system to accurately reproduce quick, abrupt changes in sound, such as the attack and decay of musical notes or the leading edge of a percussive sound. A transient is a short-lived signal that contains a high amount of energy, and a good transient response is important for accurately reproducing the natural, lifelike quality of music.
A high-end audio system with a good transient response should be able to start and stop quickly, with minimal overshoot or ringing, and should be able to reproduce the subtle details and nuances of musical performances. This is in contrast to a system with a slow or sluggish transient response, which can make music sound dull, lifeless, and lacking in detail.
A variety of factors can affect the transient response of an audio system, including the design of the amplifiers, speakers, and other components, as well as the quality of the cables and interconnects. In general, a high-end audio system that is well-designed and well-implemented should have a good transient response, allowing it to accurately reproduce the dynamic and nuanced characteristics of music.
Interesting that most the OP's description of transients relate more to midrange and high frequencies, not bass.
"The target effects I use to test transiency are the crash-to-ring transient of a cymbal, fingers going across guitar strings, snare drum tightness.."
Based on this, I suggest it is not a question of bass alignment (sealed vs ported) but rather the mid and high frequency performance that will provide the desired effect. Certainly the room and speaker placement can introduce reflections that can cause smearing in this frequency range.
An interesting characteristic of dipole speakers (Magnepan, some electrostatic, open baffle) is that they interact with the room differently. Yes you may need to absorb the rear radiationwith suitable room treatment, however they do not radiate to the sides or the ceiling. I find this can give a clarity to the mids and highs that is very appealing...and the lack of a box can provide a very natural and uncoloured bass. Worth exploring.
I have the Magnepan 1.7i and enjoy them...I think you would find they have a good transient response.
Transients are impulse responses in relation to steady state and it can be measured. Impulse response is to a specific input from base level. It is used to check time alinement. It is not related to distortion but most systems with good transient response are also low distortion. It comes down to good power to weight ratio of the drivers with pistonic motion.
When it comes to transducers, “transient response” is how close a driver can mimic the original signal. If given a theoretically perfect amplifier and speaker enclosure, any deviation from perfect transient response is indeed driver distortion. The more imperfect the response, the higher the distortion.
You are correct that lower mass diaphragms tend to have lower distortion, especially if they can resist bending modes within their implemented bandwidth.
Sometimes a driver can have good piston behavior but still cause a comb-filtering effect, which is another, typically less subjectively offensive distortion. Regardless, any deviation from perfection is a distortion.
The reason higher quality drivers sound quicker, subjectively, is because they are lower in distortion.
Ported, sealed, OB, panel…all such designs can sound slow/fast or dynamic/anemic depending on how well they are designed and the quality of their transducers. Unfortunately, most dealer-sold tower speakers under ≈$7K/pair (and stand-mounts under ≈$4K/pair) employ very mediocre transducers.
@helomech thanks I am getting a lot of Borresen recommendations and the X2 is in my price range. Only found a dealer in Jacksonville so far, long drive for a demo ;) I definitely need to research more.
Also have gotten strong endorsements for Spendor K series and Maggies.
For a "normal" speaker, Monitor Audio speakers are quite fast. Not electrostatic level of speed, but they sound noticeably fast to me. A quote from a Stereophile review of the Silver 300s rings true to me: "What these speakers said was spoken with a clarity and expressive ease. . . . Dynamic and transient-fast, it sounded almost hornlike." though the Gold series might sound even faster with greater precision to its sound.
If you are after transients first and foremost I would take a long look at Zu Union 6. I audtioned some and the transient response was off the charts, but they can also be a bit picky with upstream gear. Luckily Zu gives you 60 days to audition.
I would look at Volti speakers, the Razz is certainly in your budget at $5,500 a pair unfinished, or $7,500 in nice veneers.
I have a friend that owns several horn speakers (Forte IVs, La Scala, Volti Razz, and the new Volti Lucera). I find them superior to Klipsch Forte IVs in most every way, and maybe even better than the La Scala.
They are hybrid speakers with a traditional 12" cone bass driver, and horn loaded midrange and tweeter.
My next set of speakers will likely be a pair of Voltis, but the next up in the line which are the Lucera.....though that is possibly out of your price range at $11,500 per pair. The only downside is that Volti do not have a return policy, so you buy them....you own them
Sometimes the perceived speed of speakers can be 'sped up' by component matching. My salon 1's sounded like a live event yet the same amp driving the salon 2's sounded flat and lifeless! same with my Blades until I got the amps right.
I'm in the far west suburbs and have done my part helping a couple shops keep the lights on. Reach out if you want.
The KLH 3 and 5 have often been described the same way in that they sound like horn speakers. And I thought that may be why I like them so much because my experience was only with JBL horns before I bought them.
Will look into Monitor -- that's a brand I've heard of and seen reviewed widely.
I agree too and have researched and demo'd McIntosh and Parasound. I have a dealer nearby for both so will be able to try both with my speaker purchase. I'm leaning strong toward Parasound but that could change by the time the checkbook creaks open ;)
My KLH 3s are driven by a Cambridge CXA 61, purchased on sale after reading several positive reviews of the CXA 81. It is a great match (I got lucky) and would recommend anyone match a KLH 3/5 with a Cambridge CXA. My CXA is a little underpowered for the 3s -- they need a lot of power to dance.
@vthokie83 thank you for your recommendation. They have a very JBL 4349/S3900 look/design to them which is very appealing because those were the models I felt were likely the best option for me at bigger price points.
OP you're going to want to talk to Albert at Precision AV. Pretty sure he's the only Magico dealer in CHI and he has Paradigm also. Then used he'll have plenty more. Many on here don't love him because he's quirky to deal with but get in the same room as him and he's great. Will spend time with you and is worth the visit to the north side. Good luck.
My opinion…. Magnepan, Diptyque, for ribbon driver speakers. Sound Labs, Quads, and Martin Logan electrostatic speakers. All extremely revealing and transients that have that “live” stage presence. But at the cost of needing powerful amplification, and difficult subwoofer integration. Personally, I have Magnepan’s powered by Krell.
You should take a look at ATC. All of them are a sealed design. This dealer is in your neck of the woods. My friend owned the smaller SCM7 and they were real nice!!
Well I did a direct A/B of my JBL 590 and JBL 4367s just now to listen for transient response. I did it in mono just so I could do instant switching through my preamp. I did not use my subs. amp was McIntosh MC462 and the speakers were right beside each other. I did my best to level match by ear and with a dB meter.
Songs were Vannessa Fernandez “here but I’m gone” for an audiophile choice with good dynamics and Stone Temple Pilots “dead and bloated” for a low fi rock sample.
In general the most notable thing is the 4367 is absurdly more detailed in the upper mids and treble. There is also more texture and tone in the bass of the 4367 but that is more subtle.
Now on to the question. Does the better drivers translate to better transients/dynamics? In short, yes for sure without question. Everything that comes from the 4367’s horn has snap and more inner texture. The notes are much more separated. The 590s horn is dull and splashy with no life in comparison.
I found bass dynamics to be about the same and the 590 has less texture. The weight of the bass impact is about the same. Just less detailed on the 590. For the money the 590s have great bass and crappy highs.
The music choice did not change the outcome.
On a side note don’t by anything blind you can’t return. While I agree with some of the recommendations here I complete disagree with others and think they might not understand “transients”.
Vanessa Fernandez “here but I’m gone” is totally fine for dynamic range. Much better than 99% of albums. Check the dynamic range in software, I am sure it is high. The original poster did not mention orchestral music. Which is hard on systems but irrelevant if you don’t listen to it.
I know the tenet sound track and it sounds fine, not my style. I could rattle my house with deadmau5 too but again not my thing.
Unless you were to match the 590s and 4367s to the same volume, your test is invalid. I doubt that both speakers have the same sensitivity, so one will be at an obvious disadvantage unless you have the means to match their volumes.
small monitor speakers should have superior transient response. Bass drivers usually can not keep up...just a thought...please ignore it if you find it offense.
Everything that comes from the 4367’s horn has snap and more inner texture. The notes are much more separated. The 590s horn is dull and splashy with no life in comparison.
This has been my exact experience listening to my 590s after purchasing and listening to my KLH 3s and 4305Ps over the past year. I thought maybe it was just that I was getting "bored" of the 590s after 4 years of ownership but no, they just don’t deliver that sound as you describe it, and it makes them sound lifeless in comparison (even with those big dynamics and soundstage...)
Thank for your running the test. I’m doing the AB of my KLH 3s and 4305Ps tomorrow. If the 4305Ps get the same result in the same room as the 3s, I’m going with the 4349s. If not, probably leaning Borresen.
@mtbiker29 thank you for that recommendation -- he's in uptown and I'm west, that's a haul but worth it to hear those brands. I'll try to get up there on a Monday when traffic should be manageable.
@yogiboy thank you for your recommendation. I had not heard of ATC until maybe a week ago and saw their models on Music Direct. It's not a crazy drive there after morning rush hour and will make the trip. Thanks again.
OP if you are west then i believe Next Level AV did have a pair of Magico's recently, and you could hear the Borreson speakers also as they are the only local dealer for that brand.
If you are in Chicagoland (I'm in Wheaton), you may try a Audio Archon which in Libertyville. He carries some nice brands, DeVore Fidelity, Harbeth, and Audio Note.
The owner Mike Kay is a great guy, a well regarded audiophile, and is well worth a phone call to see what he may carry that fits into your interests. I purchaed my CODA S5.5 from him, and he worked with me on price. His showroom is by appointment only, but he'll set up whatever you are looking at in his listening room.
Holm Audio in Woodridge carries some speaker lines, though I'm not sure what they have in their listening rooms. They are a little chaotic, but their prices are negotiable.
@mtbiker29 @vthokie83 thank you this is great. I was worried especially about the Borresens that there were not local dealers for that brand--they feature Borresen on their website. I've got a few recommendations for Holm, too. And Libertyville isn't that far -- I just moved to Elmhurst.
I’ve always found ATC to be a very unique, zippy kind of sound. Is that transient response?
That's not least a trait of their 3" "superdome" midrange driver, a fantastic piece of engineering with its massive magnet structure und uncompromised construction. Configured actively no less, which is also an important factor here, it borders on electrostatic and horn-like qualities with its immediacy, resolution and unforced, unconvoluted clarity.
Improving the amp to driver interface with active config. is vital in accommodating better driver control and a more resolved, less smeared reproduction, which in turn aids transient prowess.
La 50 Kef run by mark Levinson 100 w per channel.The transient of this combo is amazing very fast.Using aesthetix preamp.The meta maybe is even better.
@phusis: regarding active design, I know that my 4305Ps really ruined my 590s for me and I think the active design of those JBLs were a big reason -- it was taking all that I loved about the 590s and making it sound more alive.
I'm down to Borresen X2s, ATC SCM40s (I'm going with the passive version) and JBL 4349 for auditions.
This was my first post on here and I'm just blown away by so many wanting to jump in and help a noob like me think through options. Thanks to everyone, what a great community on here!
regarding active design, I know that my 4305Ps really ruined my 590s for me and I think the active design of those JBLs were a big reason -- it was taking all that I loved about the 590s and making it sound more alive.
I'm down to Borresen X2s, ATC SCM40s (I'm going with the passive version) and JBL 4349 for auditions.
You could also consider the JBL 4329p's, in addition to 2nd hand (to stay within a given budget) ATC SCM40 and SCM50's in their active versions, now that you may have identified an aspect with the 4305p's, qua active, that appeals to you.
In any case, hope you'll end up deciding for the speaker solution the appeals to you the most - irrespective of claimed transient prowess, passive or active config. Auditions before purchase decision, preferably at home, is paramount, but that should go without saying :)
Yes 4329 and the pro monitor the 708p are cheaper options.
i would buy used or demos when possible. I understand why people don’t but it allows me to buy speakers above my price range. I bought my JBL 4367s new in the box for less than the JBL 4349 retails for, food for thought.
here are audio mart is a good place to start looking.
Yes I've considered the 4329Ps but this is where inexperience comes in -- the 4329Ps are regularly on sale for $3,500 which is way below my budget and I worry I would not be getting the same quality as something in the $5k+ range in passive designs.
I also would have no problem buying passives used but do worry about used actives -- just a lot more could go wrong with them.
I have read on threads that the 4349s and 4367s can be purchased at good discounts from dealers, there's at least two Chicago dealers I've found for them including Music Direct that also carries the ATCs.
Talk about speed and dynamics. I’d bet these are the droids you are looking for. Yes it is true there is not a return policy. However if you are intentional and make an effort to listen to a pair, the return policy will be irrelevant. I’m sure there are plenty of Volti owners like me willing to welcome OP into their home to have a listen. Additionally one would have no problem reselling as they are sough after and rarely show up for sale used.
If you are within a drive of NE Ohio I’d be happy to host.
Yes Volti is a very good brand for delivering excellent dynamics and speed while still sounding relaxed and natural. This is a far cry from a brand like Zu which is very fast and dynamic but also shrill and brittle sounding (to me anyway). Volti horn systems are the rare examples of modern horn compression driver systems that I like. However, there are MANY vintage systems and drivers that can sound as good or better than the Volti, although many are quite expensive.
JBL horn systems can also be quite dynamic, but, they don't have enough mid-bass weight for my taste so they sound a bit thin and slightly harsh; still many, like the Everest are very much worthy of top end systems. Fyne speakers sound fast and reasonably balanced and just a touch harsh. There are quite a few high efficiency wide-range driver systems (i.e., not compression driver/horn systems) that are also very dynamic, such as the single driver and two-way systems of Songer Audio, the single driver backloaded horn systems of Charney Audio, and the single driver and two-way systems of Cube Audio (I particularly like the two-way Nenuphar Basis model).
At a lower price point, the MoFi Source 10 is quite dynamic with only a slight bit of harshness. It won't deliver the weight and sense of scale that the Volti speakers deliver, but, they are surprisingly capable.
A dealer in the Washington DC area, Deja Vu Audio, builds custom speakers using modern and vintage components. These can be tailored to one's specific taste, which is a BIG advantage of a custom build. They employ vintage midrange horns and compression drivers because there is very little out there that can match these old drivers except VERY expensive drivers from the like of G.I.P., ALE, Cogent and Goto. These systems truly deliver excellent dynamics while retaining a sweet, natural and relaxed sound; the weight and sense of large scale is particularly good when very large format horns are employed (some of these horns are monsters).
@doyle3433 thank you that is very generous of you to offer that!
I am worried about the no return policy -- I am not worried they won't sound amazing more I just worry they may overwhelm the room (12 ft from wall to listening position, low ceiling exposed beams treated with sound panels).
@larryi thank you for your recommendations -- i really like the Cubes but appear to be outside my target budget. Gorgeous products.
I have also considered the new Mofi sourcepoint 888 as Music Direct in Chicago owns Mofi and I can get an audition there. And that's in my budget. I'm going to Music Direct anyway for the JBLs so plan to listen to the 888s while I'm there.
The interesting thing about horn systems is that they sound particularly good at lower volume levels and tend to work well in small rooms--controlled dispersion of the mid and high frequencies help to lessen the impact of room acoustics. Big horn systems in tiny rooms are common in Japan where rooms are small and listening levels have to be kept low to not disturb neighbors. I don't see the 12-foot distance to the speaker as a big problem. Still, I can understand the anxiety over not having the right to return the speakers if they are not to your liking (they have a sound I think almost everyone will like, but of course, you may be the exception).
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