Best speaker brands for transient response

@deep_333 wrote:

I think my last comment was fairly self explanatory.

There are several metrics that play into audiophile nirvana, transients being one of them.

No disagreement here, but what I did disagree with was your take on how large horns were represented, or certainly your interpretation of it (quoted paragraph of yours in my earlier reply) in this particular context, and this is still the area (i.e.: transients) that's my main focus; no deduction on my part into a conclusion that basically claims ".. if a speaker excels in transients, it's great at everything." 

As long as a speaker tackles several of these metrics above a certain acceptable threshold, one might start raving about it.

Indeed, especially a select group of "macro parameters." 

But, when you are locked into a design space, you can’t excel at everything.

Maybe not, but I'd argue certain design spaces allow for greater potential overall when taken to their fuller "extremes" and more radical implementations, as is the case - in my point of view - with large, horn-loaded speakers, and to some degree also ESL's. That the potential of horn speakers is mostly not realized isn't a design deficit with regard to performance versatility and breadth, but rather the restrictions imposed by the users from aesthetic and interior design considerations, which dictate a smaller size factor. 

I understand you’re a horn connesieur, speaking of horns, I had the older K2 9800 for a while. I have some big unheard of Yamaha PA in storage that probably beat that older JBl into dust (or what i remember of it). I may aspire to a Meyer Sound bluehorn or something similar at some future date. There are others who seem to do horns better than jbl, imo.

Again, no disagreement here. I'm not a JBL fan as is (kinda was in my early youth though), certainly not of their wider range of domestic offerings, but they're one of the few originally pro manufacturers to still provide a home line of speakers where their pro origins can "bleed" into, and for that I find they deserve some credit. However, there's a bunch of other pro manufacturers with designs from their pro repertoire (both older or newer stuff), that - given proper implementation - will quite easily challenge and exceed domestic solutions from JBL in a home environment, at potentially much lower prices, simply because they more readily adhere to core physics. 

Can/does something like a Borresen transient wonder do the same things (other enjoyable things) as some of these big horns? NOT...different designs, different compromises.

There are traits cultivated from specific design routes that are difficult to extract in others, yes. 

The avg audiophile thinks that he gets the best of everything if he just spent enough on his 1 wonder pair of speakers....NOT. (he probably doesn’t have enough space or cash to accommodate more than 1 pair of very different types of speaker designs. Hence, he may either start lying to himself or the sales guy lied to him.)

My take: cost isn't the real issue here, but rather the extent to which one is willing to go to materialize a potential from a specific, fitting design path. Vanity, dogma and/or conjecture are other issues; many won't wade into the pro arena with functional looking (and sometimes cheaper) products in addition to, as mentioned earlier, large size. 

mapman wrote:

I’ve always found ATC to be a very unique, zippy kind of sound.  Is that transient response?

That's not least a trait of their 3" "superdome" midrange driver, a fantastic piece of engineering with its massive magnet structure und uncompromised construction. Configured actively no less, which is also an important factor here, it borders on electrostatic and horn-like qualities with its immediacy, resolution and unforced, unconvoluted clarity.

Improving the amp to driver interface with active config. is vital in accommodating better driver control and a more resolved, less smeared reproduction, which in turn aids transient prowess. 

tommyuchicago wrote:

regarding active design, I know that my 4305Ps really ruined my 590s for me and I think the active design of those JBLs were a big reason -- it was taking all that I loved about the 590s and making it sound more alive.

I'm down to Borresen X2s, ATC SCM40s (I'm going with the passive version) and JBL 4349 for auditions.

You could also consider the JBL 4329p's, in addition to 2nd hand (to stay within a given budget) ATC SCM40 and SCM50's in their active versions, now that you may have identified an aspect with the 4305p's, qua active, that appeals to you.  

In any case, hope you'll end up deciding for the speaker solution the appeals to you the most - irrespective of claimed transient prowess, passive or active config. Auditions before purchase decision, preferably at home, is paramount, but that should go without saying :) 

deep_333 wrote:

It appears that some big horn speakers mentioned on this thread have defied all physics, engg design, material science, etc and achieved unmatchable transients, as per the sales crew. No, they did not, but, whatever helps to sell your stuff.

Maybe you are blowing things a bit out of proportion here. Who claims that, and are you referring to below quoted paragraph by poster larryi? 

A dealer in the Washington DC area, Deja Vu Audio, builds custom speakers using modern and vintage components.  These can be tailored to one's specific taste, which is a BIG advantage of a custom build.  They employ vintage midrange horns and compression drivers because there is very little out there that can match these old drivers except VERY expensive drivers from the like of G.I.P., ALE, Cogent and Goto.  These systems truly deliver excellent dynamics while retaining a sweet, natural and relaxed sound; the weight and sense of large scale is particularly good when very large format horns are employed (some of these horns are monsters).

There's no hyperbole in above text by Larry (not by dealers), but rather what appears to be honest reporting of impressions - again, if that's what's really the source of your gripes.

Have you heard very large all-horn systems? And no, a pair of JBL Everest DD67000's (just a thought-up example) aren't big by that measure, and they're also only horn-loaded from ~700Hz on up. The Klipsch K-horns are fully horn-loaded, but severely undersized as such.

All-horn systems that plays down into in the 25-30Hz region, that are non-truncated down low and controls directivity in their entire range on up on the other hand are very large, and that's just with 1/4 wave bass horns (full-wave bass horns, as you know, are impractical for most for obvious reasons). What they nonetheless do compared to their mostly undersized and hybrid brethren - and this is important - is actually (and just barely) complying with physics, not defying them, and therein lies a big difference.

If anything it appears speakers of such size defies the acceptance in the minds of those audiophiles who've grown accustomed to their neatly small box speakers, and who would still have their cake and eat it too - I guess not least aided by those dealers who've sold them these speakers and filled them with marketing BS in the process. 

As to the relevance of transient abilities in a speaker and all that implies, it seems that area has now become a bit washed out, subjective in nature and with brands rather than general physics and design as the prevalent factor. That being said, if we're speaking leading edge cleanliness/transient prowess in most of the audible frequency spectrum, and effortless at that at most any desired SPL (i.e.: easy of reproduction is not trivial here), large size and efficiency in addition to proper design/technology - from my chair - is inescapable. 

@deep_333 wrote:

It’s about the optics, prestige, brand name snobbery and what not (other bizarre stuff)...or they heard 300 dollar plastic trash PA at the bar and made up their minds. Play anything full tilt and all their "prestigious" audiophile goober stuff just falls to dust. But, somehow, these guys are constantly talking about the real thing, live, 3D etc (boggles my mind).

I came to my senses a bit after i heard the Daniel Hertz M1, kills everything high end for my musical tastes...but, literally a Pro speaker with the ’audiophile approved’ pricing, i.e., only a measly 200k. Other seriously engineered core pro stuff is never heard of.

+1

@tommyuchicago wrote:

@deep_333 @phusis -- I am curious, what is it about JBL that makes you not a fan?

In some, pro oriented circles in particular I find JBL to be overly hyped. Focusing more on their domestic offerings they have very good engineers (as they do in their pro sector), but I dare say it mostly doesn't translate into the more intricate aspects of sound reproduction - even in their very expensive models where they lack that last bit of refinement, overall coherency and tonal accuracy. That is to say: the basics are very good, but I don't find them to be the complete, and musically satisfying/authentic package the price calls for.

Of their contemporary models I prefer the actively configured M2's and the flagship DD67000 Everest's, both of which are very good (would love to listen to the Everest's actively configured). My personal domestic favorite of theirs may be the now discontinued (maybe not for the Japanese market) K2 S9500 - which entered the market in '89, if I'm not incorrect - with the first neodymium magnet woofers in production, the 1400ND. They may not have been the most refined speakers around, but what they did other areas was remarkable, and those 1400ND woofers are quite staggering, indeed unrivaled today in vital areas. 

Their domestic speakers appeal to this segment with all that entails, but why go with a size-limited and expensively finished package when you can have physically more fully realized designs from their pro sector and from other pro brands, many of them older designs with better drivers and much cheaper at that? Give them some good amplification, configure them actively, accept their functional looks and larger size, and prepare to be surprised. Of course, we know most won't do that for a variety of reasons, but who dares...