I don’t currently run ROON, but would like to begin correctly in order to give it a chance - and I understand that server (hardware) on which Roon core is installed is important for SQ (due to noise reduction and other factors).
What are the best hardware for SQ and usability where ROON core should be installed and why (be it audiophile dedicated servers or modified PCs)? Please comment on the rest of your setup for context if you could.
I'm also in the DIY Roon ROCK camp. I built a Roon server using a NUCi7 in a fanless Akasa Turing case. I built a higher end configuration because I wanted to be able to support multiple zones simultaneously and experiment with DSP. So my configuration with an i7, 16GB RAM, 512MB M.2, 1TB SSD with a linear power supply was about $1200.
I initially connected this via ethernet through an EtherRegen to a Bryston BDP2 streamer (with IAD upgrade) and then to my DAC using AES3.
I bought a Denafrips Gaia DDC and, after some experimentation, ended up selling the Bryston and connecting my Roon server directly to the Gaia using USB and then from the Gaia to the DAC using i2s. I also moved the EtherRegen to the router side of the Roon server.
After installing the Gaia, I found no benefit in using the streamer.
@jaytor thank you for sharing this. This is great.
I just have some questions:
Is the main purpose of the Gaia DDC to re-clock or anything else? Also, I am not familiar with the economics of the Gaia DDC vs the Bryston Streamer. Was your main motivation to sell your Bryston because it was more expensive than the DDC or some other reason? I ask this because in essence (if I understood you correctly), it sounds like by adding the DD converter, it enabled you to remove the external streamer.
It can convert virtually any input type to virtually any output type, so you can optimize the connections to your devices based on what works best and what cables you have available.
It isolates the inputs from the outputs and removes a lot of the noise.
It has extremely high quality oven-controlled femto oscillators (comparable to what you'd find in the best streamers and dacs) so that the signal delivered to the DAC is as clean and jitter free as possible. It can also sync to an external clock if you use a master clock source, or if your DAC can output clocks (like my Denafrips Terminator Plus).
If purchased new, the Gaia is about $1700 (price adjusts based on exchange rate with Singapore dollars). The current model Bryston streamer (BDP-3) sells for $4100. Mine was the previous model, although used the same output board as the BDP-3. So as a Roon endpoint, it was equivalent.
My main motivation for purchasing the Gaia was to have a way to use i2s with my DAC (which at the time was the Denafrips Terminator - since upgraded to the Terminator Plus). I had read that i2s worked best with the DAC. I had not intended to sell the Bryston when I bought it, but I found that connecting directly to the Roon server via USB worked at least as good (I think maybe better, but the difference is very subtle).
Using i2s from the Gaia to the Terminator made a very noticeable difference in sound quality. I haven't had a chance to compare other inputs on the Terminator Plus (I've only had the new DAC for a few weeks).
I'm using fairly nice cables for the USB and i2s connections (Audioquest Diamond USB and Tubulus Argentus HDMI/i2s). But I initially connected the Gaia to the Terminator using a cheap generic HDMI cable ($12 from Amazon) and even with this cable, the difference was significant compared to using other inputs connections.
I think you could be disappointed going from an Aurender N10 with the Conductor app to a Roon-based system.
I have an Innuos Zenith Mk. 3, upon which I was running Roon Core. At the suggestion of another member, I tried Squeezebox using Ipeng as a remote. The sound was significantly better; the music was clearer, the background was quieter and there was greater dimension.
The results were pretty shocking and somewhat disappointing because I really love the Roon UI and the Ipeng UI is nowhere near as easy to use or full featured.
I’d be curious to hear if other folks have had a similar experience.
When I had my Zenith Mk3 and before the most recent Roon updates I was running my Zenith in Roon plus Squeezlite (experimental) and I agree Squeezlite and Squeezebox sounded really good. Maybe better than Roon. But I didn’t have to use iPeng thank goodness. I don’t think iPeng is very user friendly. But things went haywire with the Roon updates. I had to switch to plain Roon core, which was much better. But I sense that the Innuos strained with upsampling and DSD. So I sold the Zenith. I am going to experiment on the low cost end with an Azulle mini PC which will cost me $613.47 to build. If that doesn’t go well I plan to get an SGC SonicTransporter i5.
Spend your money on your DACs - not your Roon core. Roon core can run on simple PC. I run mine on a repurposed Dell Win10 with 16GB of memory. The library is on a NAS outside the box. The Roon core PC runs 'headless' and occasionally I access it using VNC from another PC.
I recently went with a fanless, noiseless Small Green Computer sonicTransporter and an opticalRendu with Roon and couldn't be happier. It plays MQA, 32 / 768 PCM, and up to DSD 512. And, of course, Roon with it's new 1.8 rollout is great to work with.
I have a question. I’m using the Cary Audio DMS600 Streamer/DAC with a Roon Nucleus and a Audioquest Vodka Ethernet Cable. Is there any additional devices that will improve the sound even more like an OpticalRendu, UltraRendu or an EtherREGEN? Any other option available? I am thinking about the Cary Audio DMS700.
Get a roon endpoint. Raspberry pi is your starting point but with a small upgrade to include a well designed HAT (hardware attached on top) you are one step from unbelievable sound at a great price.
For me, the PI2AES was the way to go and beat my mac mini hands down.
The PI2AES (the so-called pi-HAT) is the roon endpoint. You can't install roon directly on a raspberry so instead you install an operating system that functions as an endpoint. I used RoPIeee|XL which is pretty straightforward if you know anything about unix:
The difference between this and running on my mac mini was like night and day. I would say this was the biggest bang for the buck I have yet experienced on my system.
I run this into an ADI-2-DAC FS and it sounds amazing. Here's a great article that does a showdown using the PI2AES:
Everyone focuses on the DAC but most DAC's are pretty darn good. The weakest link is often the music server. I have a several thousand dollar mac mini I thought was just fine but it was destroyed hands down by the pi-HAT described above.
So the music server is very important.
The music server does NOT have to be expensive. I would be interested to see if others have observed the same as I did.
I have a question. I’m using the Cary Audio DMS600 Streamer/DAC with a Roon Nucleus and a Audioquest Vodka Ethernet Cable. Is there any additional devices that will improve the sound even more like an OpticalRendu, UltraRendu or an EtherREGEN? Any other option available? I am thinking about the Cary Audio DMS700.
The Cary DMSs have a nice network bridge (renderer / endpoint) built in. If you want to improve something, then upgrade to the DMS-700. There is thread in here about a few people upgrading to the 700 and being very happy.
Later on, if so inclined, you can try an EtherREGEN or some other type of Ethernet switch or filter.
Just get a roon nucleus, it’s all you need. Don’t clutter things up with an unnecessary addon streamer, unnecessary.
no one has a clue why they need a streamer and a nucleus. Nucleus is all u need. Maybe add a lps, but this depends on your power quality to home, lps for most is snake oil.
Here's what I have and it has been running great for many months with zero issues:
Roon Optimized Core Kit (Rock) running on Intel Nuc NUC8I7BEH (Intel Core i7-8559U 2.7GHz). I have 16GB of memory, 256GB SSD for the OS and a separate 1 TB SSD for Storage of the music files. I also added a second external 1TB SSD connected via USB for additional music storage.
I wanted zero noise - no fans. So I took the Intel Nuc board out of the Intel case and installed it in an Akasa Plato X8 fanless PC case. You can buy these on Amazon. This black case looks great, and more importantly it keep everything running cool despite my fairly complex Roon DSP settings or when I play DSD music for hours. When I touch the case, it's barely warm, not hot. And I leave my Roon Rock on all the time, it is never turned-off.
My music files are Flac, DSD/DSF, and some Apple lossless.
I have used this Roon server with USB connected direct to an integrated Amplifier (Lyngdorf TDAI-2170), as well as through Ethernet to a Naim Uniti Nova. I also used it connecting to a DAC that was connected with Raspberry Pi running RoPieee connected to my Oppo DAC, which worked great also.
Hope this helps, but message me if you have any specific questions.
I found no need for extra computing power when I first installed Roon. I just put it here on my desktop iMac (old, 2009, 24", 4GB RAM). It isn't the fastest in the world, but acceptable for and old retired audio nut going on two years in the basement. I too am looking for a Core, but the sound is very good. My first move will be to hook the iMac to the rest of my audio system with Ethernet.
Hello all that have commented on my question. I definitely appreciate the suggestion. My thing is at the end of the day, I don’t want to re-event the wheel and start the whole process all over from the beginning.ive already been down that rabbit hole and don’t want to experience that again. Those who have truly dived into the whole streaming process understand where I’m coming from. I’ve owned some of the best and expensive streamers and DAC/ Streamers out there As far as DAC and Streamers are concerned, I finally found a unit that does Hi Res, TIDAL with MQA and Qobuz well without any hiccups. Having experience with computers, at some point they will require upgrades and act funny. And then comes the disaster, dropping your music while you’re listening. True DAC/ Streamers offer better security of less disconnect. The Cary Audio DMS600 uses the flagship VERITA Series AKM4497EQ VELVET SOUND architecture premium 32-bit DAC. The only reason why I haven’t switched to the DMS700 based on the other thread is because most have switched from the DMS500 or DMS550 but haven’t heard anything about the benefits of folks switching from the DMS600 to the DMS700 and see an improvement in sound quality. The DMS600 is by far superior to the 500 or 550. The 600 was there Reference piece last year and did extremely well against other top of the line streamers. I just want to see if there are any other add-ons that can help even if an individual that has owned a top of the line Lumin and added an additional item to improve the SQ. Don’t get me wrong, the Cary withe the Roon Nucleus sounds incredible. It’s like a high performance vehicle or your home, you always want to improve something, lol.
If you would like to further improve the SQ of Cary, try ENO Ethernet Filter Ag between your Cary and the router. It’s based on a same principle as EtherREGEN but works passively. You can read about it on this thread.
Thanks all for sharing. These experiences are great and definitely helpful.
ENO sounds very promising!
I have the EtherRegen and like what it does in the system. I tried to take it out again and again because its pricy but always unsuccessful because sound is degraded ever so slightly after taking it out, and its enough to drive one crazy. So I put it back in :) As mentioned, it is actively powered, I use an external power supply for it, which I find to add SQ benefit as well. I like the fact that it also accepts optical fiber as I have a long run to my listening room and I also use the benefit that it is a multi purpose switch to run ethernet to the other equipment in that room from the ’A’ side of the Etherregen.
Let me better understand. With my connection, I go from the Router (Audioquest Vodka Ethernet Carver) to my Roon Nucleus ( Audioquest Vodka Ethernet Cable) and then to my Cary DMS600. So my question is will the ENO Ethernet Filter Ag or the EtherRegen be placed from the Router to the Roon Nucleus or from the the Roon Nucleus to the Cary?
It should be placed between your router and Nucleus.
Hmm... I had better luck putting my EtherRegen between my server and my streamer when I was using a streamer. Since @decathlon1991 is using the Cary as the streamer, I'd recommend trying it in both places. And you could consider getting two ethernet filters and using them in both places.
I was just going by what the ENO manufacturer says on their website:
"A unique (patent pending) passive filtering system which plugs in between your network switch or router, and your streaming device."
AFAIK, EtherRegen is not passive but I could be wrong. Either way, I'd go with what the creator of the product recommends before experimenting with a different setup.
In @decathlon1991 's case, the Nucleus is not the streamer. It is another source of data. I think the primary goal is to remove any noise on the ethernet signal before it reaches the streamer, and this includes noise introduced by the Roon core.
But it's worth trying it in both locations to see what works best.
@
decathlon1991 Your question : " So my question is will the ENO Ethernet Filter Ag or the EtherRegen be placed from the Router to the Roon Nucleus or from the the Roon Nucleus to the Cary? "
I use the EtherRegen immediately in front of the streamer(s).
If you have a streamer and a server (two separate units): put the first good Ethernet Switch or Filter in front of the streamer. If you have two of these Switches or Filters.... well, you know what to do.
Honestly you don't need to spend huge $ on a Roon Core platform. Most of these devices people are recommending are for use with USB direct connection, if that is your intended use then by all means spend the cash. But if all you want is the ability to try Roon build yourself a Rpi 3 or 4 with an allo digione hat, install OS of choice with RAAT roon endpoint and run core via ethernet from an old pc/mac if you have one. Cheapest way to get Roon integrated into your audio system. Running this over your network via ethernet doesn't have the isolation issues you find running the core platform directly via USB.
I have the ENO filter between an Etherregen and Innuos Statement, if I take it out there is a big drop in sound quality.
I purchased a used Antipodes Core to put Roon Core on. It is definitely better than running Roon Core and Endpoint on the Innuos. The Antipodes converts to DSD 512 in Roon without a problem but I have recently found Roon sounds better with this turned off. I haven't compared this set up with Experimental Mode yet.
I also have a Terminator Plus and Iris DDC and agree the combination is a bit step up from USB and using the clock out from the TP to the Iris has an amazing effect of clarity, timing and presence. Yes, it has a major positive effect on the Statements USB which I was not expecting.
Hello everyone. Thank you for this valuable information. This was a huge help and I greatly appreciate it. It was a tough decision but I’ve decided to go with two of the ENO Ethernet Filter Ag over the EtherRegen. They are both great products but after speaking with some of my electrical engineering friends , I didn’t want to add another powered unit to my already existing quiet system. Thanks again for the help.
Thank you for sharing. This is precisely the kind of information I was hoping for when starting this thread.
Regarding: "I purchased a used Antipodes Core to put Roon Core on. It is definitely better than running Roon Core and Endpoint on the Innuos."
It is both interesting, and a bit concerning that an excellent piece of equipment like the Statement would not be able to handle both functions as well as only being an endpoint. Could you elaborate on what kind of sonic benefits you might have heard when placing the core separately from the Statement box?
- Everyone, thank your for sharing you experiences.
Roon Nucleus connected via ethernet to a dCS Bartok streamer/DAC. IPad to control. dCS recommends ethernet connection vs. wifi or usb, which they invented. Small Green Computer sent me an optical converter for the ethernet connection to the Bartok to fine tune any noise. Simple, clean and sounds terrific. Also, the Bartok with it's own streaming ap, Mosaic, will tune Qobuz, Tidal, Spotify and others directly. Probably better sound by a small margin but much less metadata. Can also do Audrivana via ethernet from my MacBook Pro. So, dCS likes connection by ethernet, if available.
So to make a little bit longer story shorter, I didn’t think I was getting $5000 worth of performance from my Innuos ZENith Mk3 2TB for Roon core. Plus I only stream and I don’t rip CDs. So I sold my Zenith and embarked on a journey to find where the sweet spot is for the same performance at a lower price. I think I may have found it with an Azulle Kaby Lake i5 Inspire Mini PC with 32 (16 x 2) GB RAM and a Samsung 250 GB M.2 SSD that I installed. The total cost of all of this was less than $614.00 inclusive of sales tax. The Mini PC is fanless as opposed to the NUC and obviates the need for an Akasa $169 Turing FX case. I already have a couple of Sonore UltraRendus. So my streamers are separate from my Core. So far, my SQ from my listening sessions is at least no worse than the ZENith. If interested here are the instructions on how to install ROCK on the Azulle Inspire Mini PC:
Well, like all things audio, this escalated quickly. I'm no expert on all things audio or PC and while the Taiko is certainly a beautiful piece of engineering, despite using an off-the-shelf workstation/server motherboard, and no mention of any special consideration given to the network or USB interface. I wasn't aware of any bottleneck presented by SATA based SSDs(certainly not by any HiRes music files), other than file transfers I've seen very little real world improvement using a PCIe M.2 drive, even when I was using it for the OS(which this doesn't) Is there truly any audible difference between SATA and PCIe based solid state storage? I guess the price difference isn't too great and it is a space saver, but they do get extremely hot. Finally, can anyone explain why the Taiko needs such a large bank of capacitors? It's not as though transients draw a bunch of power when expressed digitally, I would think the Taiko server would have a fairly consistent power draw when in use that would never require such a large capacitor bank, unless it is acting as some sort of UPS. Looks nice though.
Spotify seems to move into hq streaming, this may change the market somewhat.
Whatever you buy, make sure it is software upgradable and from a somewhat stable company. A NUC and an external re-clocker might be a good start that can be switched later.
I'm no engineer so take what I write with a grain of salt. It has been a while since I moved the roon core off the statement and I cant say I remember what was different except that it was easily better.
I think maybe reducing the processor demands on the Statement lowered noise and further improved its performance. Innuos seems to have chosen a lower power processor for the noise benefits. They say it can run roon core and it can but I think at the expense of a noise trade off. I think I may have also been trying to upsample to DSD in roon- which I don't do any more because it sounds worse in my system now.
Since moving the core off the Statement I have spend the time working on the network; switches, cables, reclocking, fiber, re arranging dedicated lines, power conditioning and power supplies. When I started I had a hard time listening to Tidal or Qobuz vs the Statement because there was such a drop in sound quality. Now while the Statement is superior the gap is relatively small and Tidal and Qobuz Hi-Rez are amazing and occasionally better than the redbook files on the Statement.
The Antipodes Core is a purpose build Roon Core server and I think better than the Roon Nucleus's in terms of sound, not power. I also think its a shame Antipodes unleashed a new product line shortly after releasing the CX/EX line making the CX/EX dated and devalued shortly after release. I am watching the price of the CX tumble and plan to pick one up next year to replace the Antipodes Core to run roon core unless Innuos finally releases their OS update and it outperforms roon and has a reasonable search function to browse.
I put together a NUC that is equivalent to the Roon Nucleus +, added a 2 TB internal SSD, and bought a lifetime subscription to Roon, all for around $1600. That's a deal in the hi-fi world. I highly recommend it! Roon is fantastic. I ripped around 2k cds, put the CDs in my basement freeing up a ton of space, and now listen to music in 4 different systems around my house, two with Roon ready components and two with Rpi 4 + Ropieee (which works fantastic).
Here is a recap and update on my post above: I am running a DIY Azulle Mini PC with a Kaby Lake i5. I installed 32GB RAM and a Samsung 250 GB M.2 SSD. I have tweaked the BIOS to have the i5 run in Turbo when needed. I added a SGC 12V 50W linear power supply. The Azulle is connected to my SOtM sNH-10G network switch with a DH Labs Cat 8 Reunion Ethernet cable. Another Reunion connects to a Sonore UltraRendu with a linear power supply. My SQ is at least as good as from the Innuos Zenith Mk3 that I sold. Depending on the amp backgrounds are black, soundstage is wide and imaging is good. No regrets with money in my pocket to deploy elsewhere.
I appreciate the thoughtful views here and the positive experiences most have had with the Nucleus Plus. I want to offer a Caveat Emptor. I have had my Nucleus Plus for 3 months and it has never functioned appropriately. The last straw is that I cannot copy music files to its memory. It loops constantly and I have to force quit the program. I have a list of other failures. Needless to say it is virtually impossible to communicate with Roon, and going on a week, there has been no,response. Crickets. I am beyond angry to now pitch a $3k device into a landfill. My son said don’t buy a hardware product from a software company. I should have listened.
@lafayette2010Every company has products that fail. No one is perfect but Roon service is usually extremely good. Did you post on the forum? Who were you talking to in support? Your ticket may accidentally have been closed. It is very unlike Roon to not follow up. They are usually incredibly responsive.
@verdantaudioThanks for the observation. I would have thought they would respond professionally. Maybe they are Covid short staffed. I have 2 acknowledged "tickets" but then crickets. It is very unlikely given my experience I will stick with the Nucleus. It's on;y a question how painful the transition will be.
I just removed a MacMini M1 and replaced it with a Nucleus as a test to see if the hype is real. I am here to tell you, IT IS REAL. The nucleus was literally like I lifted a curtain..And I have a gigafoil working "isolate" the system from the Server. So there goes your theory. It's real, embrace it Servers are as important (maybe more) important than DACs. If you haven't listened to a dedicated Server it's nothing more than an opinion. If you're happy with the sound you have, great. But know for a fact a dedicated matters and will improve the sound.
I returned the Nucleus and went straight for the top of the line Antipodes.
When I was considering Roon, one of the important criteria was to choose a component that doesn’t rely on external server and associated LPS, cabling and isolation.
One such component is Merging Technologies +player which sports an onboard CPU that allows running RoonCore on Linux RoonOS and implements a Roon Endpoint. It connects internally through Ravenna to the MERGING+NADAC (DAC) hardware and enjoys then the exact same characteristics and flexibility as an external computer running Roon. Pretty nifty, isn’t it :-)
In addition to full blown Roon Server / DAC, it comes with a PRE and Headphone DAC.
I'm a happy camper using a Roon Nucleus and a Lumin streamer. I can not tell any difference in SQ when running Qobuz with the Roon or when running the native Lumin software. When I used a computer to run Roon the SQ was as not as good.
Lot's here (the forum) on cleaning up your ethernet too.
So for those of us who don't have a degree of interest in IT and network; is there a server that Roon behave with more stability and less of the never- ending bugs?
@mdroneI think this issue mostly is software evolution, not problems with Roon servers. Roon tries to do a major release 2x/year, more or less. Some releases have had bugs quickly fixed. Other complaints have often been some users preferring old look, etc.
Overall, IMHO, Roon has done a better job than many software companies making mostly good decisions about what new features to add first, etc. There's certainly plenty more to do, but I feel their track record points to a reasonable likelihood that it will continue to be the best overall option in the market.
Some releases do require the server companies to make updates. A handful of companies have proven to work quickest and most effectively with the Roon team to minimize issues. For example, quoting from Roon's own forum about their last major update:
I'd give serious consideration to running Roon Core on one of the products from these companies. In my case, SGC has worked great and when I had an issue, received superb support to resolve it, even though the problem was a Roon setting rather a problem with the server. Cheers,
“handful of companies have proven to work quickest and most effectively with the Roon team to minimize issues.”
This should be a prime consideration of picking Roon compatible hardware. My Merging +player has worked flawlessly from day one and updates are instantaneous and seamless.
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