Best Server To Run Roon Core

Hello @lalitk , 100% agree!  I would keep my Muon Pro and M12 in front of  MU1.

The Grimm would run Roon Core (Server)  and AES (Streamer) into my Tambaqui, and also serve to my second system's streamer via LAN.  Only downside is not being able to use AES from Grimm MU1 into BOTH of my DAC's!  If had only read amazing things about MU1's AES output into the Tambaqui.  

“Or perhaps I will order a Grimm MU1!”

@fastfreight 

You certainly can but another user of MU1 also found Muon Pro + Rubicon switch to be highly effective ahead of MU1 :-)

Hello,  tonight I was able to do a head to head comparison of the original Muon Filter System and the new Muon Pro filter System.  Using my Mola Mola Makua  (the Makua is an amazing pre-amp with optional onboard Tambaqui DAC and Streamer), Audionet Max amps, Revel Salon 2 speakers and REL subs, I was able to easily swap in and out the Muon and Muon Pro.  My Makua (unlike my Aries G 2.1) easily accepts ethernet through either the Muon (100Mb/s) or the new Pro version (1G/s).

I listened each way for over and hour, then, formulating a clear opinion, I switched in and out for specific tracks. I was able to hear the difference each time within seconds.  The Pro is more engaging, more immersive, richer, tonally more pleasing, more relaxing, yet still just as resolving and tingly. I used Liberty; Alison Krauss and Union Station, It Doesn't Matter; Mark Knopfler, The Scaffolder's Wife; Old Genesis, and Chris Botte, Summertime.  The soundstage on Summertime is sky high with the Pro!

@Lalitk, I would like to experiment with placement of the M12 switch.  I do suspect it would sound best in front of ONE of my streamers.  But I need the switch where it is - between my Modem, Server and both Streamers.  Moving it around requires unhooking lots of things (specific M12 Telegartner cables), inserting an inferior switch etc.  Perhaps I will get to this.  Or perhaps I will order a Grimm MU1! 😜

@fastfreight

Thanks for sharing your impressions. I am glad to hear you’re loving the Muon Pro, the praises are unanimous so far with streamers that are designed for 1Gb/s Ethernet. I find it quite interesting Muon Pro’s impact ahead of M12 switch which is pretty phenomenal on its own. I wonder if the long run of Supra CAT 8 is somewhat diminishing M12 efficacy over such long distance from Aries. An interesting test would be to remove M12 from the equation and listen to Aries with Muon Pro to access if you miss M12 performance.

I have been eyeing upcoming Telegartner’s OPT BRIDGE 1000M, according to Marcin (JCAT) using OPT BRIDGE ahead of M12 adds clarity, improves articulation while making the sound more analogue. He was skeptical given the price of BRIDGE powered by OPTIMO 3 DUO but the improvement is substantial enough to take the plunge 😊

@lalitk, Hello!   I now have my Muon Pro Streaming System (which means includes the second cable, which is by the way distinct for the Pro version). 

Recall I have Gateway 1100 Verizon Modem > JCAT M12 gold cable > M12 Gold Switch w/ Jcat Optimo 3 power supply > M12 Cable > Nucleus +

                                                             >M12 Cable > JCAT Net Isolator (coupler) >

Supra Cat 8 20 M >(WITH OR WITHOUT MUON PRO FILTER SYSTEM) > Aries G2.1 Streamer w LPS > USB (K-S Realization)  > Mola Mola Tambaqui > Audionet Pre and amps.

 

So I tried with and without the Muon Pro directly in front of my streamer. I listened casually for a few days to run it in, then did some serious A/B switching the Muon Pro in and out.  My wife has good ears and for her it was blind as I was the wizard behind the components.

 

1)  I had no issues with turning the Aries on and off and changing the cables quickly, and the Aries connected immediately.  This is showing the Gigabit put through of the Muon Pro vs the bottleneck I had with the previous regular Muon.

2) The Muon Pro adds significant improvement to our ears vs the straight-in Supra cat 8.  The sound was bigger, richer, more enveloping and just plain more pleasurable.  There was no doubt to us, and it was immediate.

3) The Muon Pro is connected with another JCAT Net Isolator into the Network Acoustics Muon Pro cables, One is hardwired out of the Muon Filter; the other is the second Muon Pro Network cable going from the Net Isolator (coupler) into the Muon filter.  My point here is that the second Muon Pro cable AND the JCAT Net Isolator could be helping.  Certainly Rich at NA says the second Muon Pro cable is important.  An interesting test would be to simply use the Net Isolator and one Muon Pro cable (leaving the Filter out) and see if they help by themselves.  This is only academic to me, as I love the sound of the Muon Pro Filter.

4) I can soon test the original Muon Filter against the Muon Pro  in my Mola Mola Makua system.  The embedded streamer is less sensitive to the 1G requirement, and works flawlessly with the original Muon.

@fastfreight 

Looking forward to your impressions on Pro vs Std Muon. There is a custom NUC option readily available off Amazon but not sure how much of an upgrade that would be over Nucleus +.  Many user reported issues / repairs with Nucleus so I recognize at some point you will be getting a replacement. 

@sns Thanks.  I misspoke here; I have USB hard drive and Ethernet into Nucleus+, and Ethernet out to my Switch and streamer.

@lalitk Thanks, I have heard good things about Wolf.  My Nucleus is working fine, but I have a history of issues and repair.  It is about the last thing I have not taken to the next level.  BTW, I am awaiting Muon Pro from NA when available, and will be trying it in both of my systems and most likely keeping it in front of my Aries G2.1 Streamer.  Fortunately, the regular Muon works great into my Makua w. DAC and streamer, but not into my Aries, which craves the 1G input.  Take care!

@fastfreight 

If you are already using a LPS with Nucleus plus then the next (upgrade) step would be a custom made server with optimized USB. Consider reaching out to Wolf Audio for a tailor made solution. 

@fastfreight Won't get optimized usb out of Nucleus servers, usb directly off motherboards with these. Getting optimized usb on dedicated usb board will only come with much more costly streamers. To get superior usb out of Nucleus involves adding dedicated streamer such as SOTM, Sonore, etc.

 

Having said that, I'd agree with consensus or reviews finding adding lps of value.

@lalitk 

HDPlex 18v

@fastfreight 

Are you using a linear power supply with Nucleus plus? I couldn’t tell from your system description…..something like Teddy Pardo PS would be a substantial upgrade. 

@lalitk so if I have a fairly optimized system running Roon core on a Nucleus+, and desire usb input and output, what should I consider as a core only upgrade?

 

@lalitk so if I have a fairly optimized system running Roon core on a Nucleus+, and desire usb input and output, what should I consider as a core only upgrade?

 

“Scary satisfying sound coming out of the modified NUCs with our DACs,”

@jmarshak 

I bet your $20K DAC w/Roon end point has lot to do with the scary satisfying sound 😉

Glad to hear. That’s an excellent option to start with. Works for me wonderfully.

I have tried a couple of Linear Power Supplies (LPS) and other tweaks with my NUC and have been really impressed with even the USB connection SQ to the DAC The Farad 3 LPS with their level 2-silver DC cable is found to be an especially excellent match. My friend and I also perform several isolation options inside which help as well. Scary satisfying sound coming out of the modified NUCs with our DACs, overall very pleasantly surprised.

nice post. marked.

thanks for all folks.

 

i am planning to buy d DIY Fanless mini PC with 

i7 8550

32GB ram

128GB storage 

to run roon core.

I briefly used USB from a Mini to an Oppo 205 with balanced analog to a pair of Parasound JC 1 monoblocks. Then I switched to USB from the Mini to an Ayre QB-9 DSD DAC with balanced analog through an Ayre K-5xeMP preamp to the JC 1s. A big jump in sound quality came with replacing the Oppo with the Ayre DAC and preamp. I added an ultraRendu with LPS 1.2 that sends USB to the Ayre DAC on the hunch that Roon finds devices connected to the Ethernet more reliably. Roon always finds the ultraRendu, but often didn’t find the Ayre DAC.

db

 

I’m also wondering what next steps to take in my digital sourcing. I use Roon almost exclusively. It’s in a headless mini (couldn’t tell you the last time I connected to a monitor to do anything with it, it just runs and runs and runs). Right now, I’m using HDMI out of the mini into an Oppo 205 as the ‘endpoint’ (I think that’s the right term), and then into the processor. I like that setup for when I’m watching/playing a disc, which is rare, as it means the connections and inputs don’t change. I can use the Oppo as the DAC and listen via the balanced outputs, or use the processors DAC by using the HDMI output that’s always connected anyway. Both the mini and the Oppo have Ethernet connections to the router (internet comes into the house right next the equipment rack). While I tend to be a ‘buy once, cry once’ buyer, I’m more interested in incremental steps for this to see what difference each change will make, while maintaining the reliability and ease of use I have now. Therefore I’m reading this thread and others with great interest, while at the same time trying not to get lost in the technical aspect…I get lost there very easily.

 

thanks to all that have posted their preferences and experiences so far. 

I’m still undecided. Setup will be router, server, Ayre QX-5 Twenty, and Google MESH node connected to an Ethernet switch upstairs. The server and QX-5 will be connected directly to Ethernet, but the utraRendu with LPS 1.2 and Ayre QB-9 DSD DAC downstairs will be on the Google MESH network.

Which server, a Mac Mini M1 or NUC? I’ve watched Darko’s NUC preparation, and hardware looks easy, not so software. If somebody sold prepared NUCs, I’d try one. Currently running Roon on a 2011 Mini that’s downstairs on the Google network. Sounds good to me, but I’m willing change out the server when I move it upstairs. Maybe rewatch Darko.

db

@jksec Running directly to dac generally means running out usb port on server, unless this is optimized with something like Jcat or Pink Faun usb card, not best way to go.

Running over ethernet gives one many options like separate streamer/end point/usb renderer, also can do FMC (fiber media conversion) or any number of filters like Acoustic Network Eno.

 

Issue with Nucs is lack of two ethernet ports, but if one is using network switch of less consequence. Macmini requires mods with diy lps like Uptone Audio MMK and JS-2. Macmini can be modified for two ethernet ports, advantage is don't need network switch.

 

Server direct to dac is convenience method. Ethernet via switch or direct mode is for maximum sound quality.

Very interesting topic, thanks you for everyone contributed so far.
To better understand what really counts when running Roon a few additional questions if I may.
1) Are you connecting Roon core (server) directly to DAC or over the Ethernet? What would be the benefits to either one?
2) There seems to be roughly two camps NUC/MacMini type solutions and proper music servers. Which one should be used with which connectivity method to get the advantage?
I'm trying to understand these as would seem that running Roon core in NUC when using Ethernet would be fine, but in case one would use for example USB output then a proper music server hardware would be better option. Am I completely wrong here?

I now have the Fan-less NUC running on a nice linear power supply and I do like the sound better.  Basically I perceive a lower noise floor.  I did not think it was possible anymore, but I do like it better. Tried few days with Quboz and local files sitting on the core ssd drive.

Details: The NUC is connected to the network.  All of my network components run on linear power supplies (modem, router, switches).  I also use fiber for isolation and long distances runs. 

I fear that this finding unfortunately supports the 'everything matters' camp in the digital domain.  It also means that a lot more money will be spent in the future

DIY solution for me. May be high end ATX build that combines server/streamer. May be high end NUC for server, combine with any number of streamer choices. Also depends on whether one is using I2S, usb or xlr on dac. May also run another music player software such as Euphony Stylus.

I am using a Mac M1 mini Running Roon and HQplayer only. 

I am upsampling  everything to DSD512/ASDM7/poly-sinc-xtrr-mp-2s via HQPlayer. Runs flawlessly.

 

The rest of my system: McIntosh Mx-150/MC312 B&W Nautilus 803's

Apart for speed and “bandwidth”, the other benefit of your fanless NUC is a dedicated machine that runs headless 24/7 with no interruptions.

 

From my experience, since your Roon Core is not directly linked to DAC (I.e via USB cable), the LPS will not bring much to the table. That’s just my experience with a NUC first then Nucleus+. Some other people experienced an improvement. So you can definitely try for yourself.

Thanks @thyname

So as an update,

I have the nuc running Rock OS headless, in a fanless case. Roon UI is flying! Also, SQ improved. But not sure if improvement is due to the new Core setup, or because the new DAC is continuing to break-in. Regardless,I am not complaining!

Next, I would like to ad an LPS. I don’t have much hope that SQ will improve further, mainly because the core is not connected to the DAC directly (its connected through network), but figure it’s worth a try.

@jmarshak : congratulations on the Roon lifetime membership purchase. It is the best purchase I have ever made in audio back in March 2017

A linear power supply and an upgraded DC cable is a critical addition, if you want to maximize SQ. I also recommend resonance control. 

@jc51373 

Thanks for your helpful response, Jeff. I'll PM you in a bit. 

@david_ten 

 

Hi David, pretty much all aspects of the presentation improved. Everything just seems quieter, calmer, more musical. So all the things that come along with that in any given system will vary I suppose, for me it was not a small difference from the Nucleus. Nucleus can be dry overall, but for the money does a great job. Is the K50 worth the extra cost? I think so, but like alot of impactful hifi gear it's expensive. So thats really a separate more subjective conversation. I am happy with the investment. 

@jc51373 Can you share what you gained (overall impressions and results) by going to the "top of the line Antipodes" versus the Roon Nucleus?  Thanks.

“handful of companies have proven to work quickest and most effectively with the Roon team to minimize issues.”
 

This should be a prime consideration of picking Roon compatible hardware. My Merging +player has worked flawlessly from day one and updates are instantaneous and seamless.

@mdrone I think this issue mostly is software evolution, not problems with Roon servers. Roon tries to do a major release 2x/year, more or less. Some releases have had bugs quickly fixed. Other complaints have often been some users preferring old look, etc. 

Overall, IMHO, Roon has done a better job than many software companies making mostly good decisions about what new features to add first, etc. There's certainly plenty more to do, but I feel their track record points to a reasonable likelihood that it will continue to be the best overall option in the market. 

Some releases do require the server companies to make updates. A handful of companies have proven to work quickest and most effectively with the Roon team to minimize issues. For example, quoting from Roon's own forum about their last major update:

I'd give serious consideration to running Roon Core on one of the products from these companies. In my case, SGC has worked great and when I had an issue, received superb support to resolve it, even though the problem was a Roon setting rather a problem with the server. Cheers,

Spencer

So for those of us who don't have a degree of interest in IT and network; is there a server that Roon behave with more stability and less of the never- ending bugs?

I'm a happy camper using a Roon Nucleus and a Lumin streamer. I can not tell any difference in SQ when running Qobuz with the Roon or when running the native Lumin software. When I used a computer to run Roon the SQ was as not as good.

Lot's here (the forum) on cleaning up your ethernet too. 

 

Impressive and forward thinking technology there Lalit.

Thanks all for sharing your thoughts and experiences.  Lots of great comments keep coming.

 

When I was considering Roon, one of the important criteria was to choose a component that doesn’t rely on external server and associated LPS, cabling and isolation. 

One such component is Merging Technologies +player which sports an onboard CPU that allows running RoonCore on Linux RoonOS and implements a Roon Endpoint. It connects internally through Ravenna to the MERGING+NADAC (DAC) hardware and enjoys then the exact same characteristics and flexibility as an external computer running Roon. Pretty nifty, isn’t it :-) 

In addition to full blown Roon Server / DAC, it comes with a PRE and Headphone DAC. 

@alephresearch

 

I just removed a MacMini M1 and replaced it with a Nucleus as a test to see if the hype is real. I am here to tell you, IT IS REAL. The nucleus was literally like I lifted a curtain..And I have a gigafoil working "isolate" the system from the Server. So there goes your theory. It's real, embrace it Servers are as important (maybe more) important than DACs. If you haven't listened to a dedicated Server it's nothing more than an opinion. If you're happy with the sound you have, great. But know for a fact a dedicated matters and will improve the sound. 

I returned the Nucleus and went straight for the top of the line Antipodes. 

@verdantaudio Thanks for the observation. I would have thought they would respond professionally. Maybe they are Covid short staffed. I have 2 acknowledged "tickets" but then crickets. It is very unlikely given my experience I will stick with the Nucleus. It's on;y a question how painful the transition will be.

 

@lafayette2010 Every company has products that fail. No one is perfect but Roon service is usually extremely good. Did you post on the forum? Who were you talking to in support? Your ticket may accidentally have been closed. It is very unlike Roon to not follow up. They are usually incredibly responsive.

I appreciate the thoughtful views here and the positive experiences most have had with the Nucleus Plus. I want to offer a Caveat Emptor. I have had my Nucleus Plus  for 3 months and it has never functioned appropriately. The last straw is that I cannot copy music files to its memory. It loops constantly and I have to force quit the program. I have a list of other failures. Needless to say it is virtually impossible to communicate with Roon, and going on a week, there has been no,response. Crickets. I am beyond angry to now pitch a $3k device into a landfill. My son said don’t buy a hardware product from a software company. I should have listened. 

Here is a recap and update on my post above:
I am running a DIY Azulle Mini PC with a Kaby Lake i5. I installed 32GB RAM and a Samsung 250 GB M.2 SSD. I have tweaked the BIOS to have the i5 run in Turbo when needed. I added a SGC 12V 50W linear power supply. The Azulle is connected to my SOtM sNH-10G network switch with a DH Labs Cat 8 Reunion Ethernet cable. Another Reunion connects to a Sonore UltraRendu with a linear power supply. My SQ is at least as good as from the Innuos Zenith Mk3 that I sold. Depending on the amp backgrounds are black, soundstage is wide and imaging is good. No regrets with money in my pocket to deploy elsewhere. 

I put together a NUC that is equivalent to the Roon Nucleus +, added a 2 TB internal SSD, and bought a lifetime subscription to Roon, all for around $1600.  That's a deal in the hi-fi world.  I highly recommend it!  Roon is fantastic.  I ripped around 2k cds, put the CDs in my basement freeing up a ton of space, and now listen to music in 4 different systems around my house, two with Roon ready components and two with Rpi 4 + Ropieee (which works fantastic).

@jmarshak 

I'm no engineer so take what I write with a grain of salt.  It has been a while since I moved the roon core off the statement and I cant say I remember what was different except that it was easily better.  

I think maybe reducing the processor demands on the Statement lowered noise and further improved its performance.  Innuos seems to have chosen a lower power processor for the noise benefits.  They say it can run roon core and it can but I think at the expense of a noise trade off.  I think I may have also been trying to upsample to DSD in roon- which I don't do any more because it sounds worse in my system now.

Since moving the core off the Statement I have spend the time working on the network; switches, cables, reclocking, fiber, re arranging dedicated lines, power conditioning and power supplies.  When I started I had a hard time listening to Tidal or Qobuz vs the Statement because there was such a drop in sound quality.  Now while the Statement is superior the gap is relatively small and Tidal and Qobuz Hi-Rez are amazing and occasionally better than the redbook files on the Statement.

The Antipodes Core is a purpose build Roon Core server and I think better than the Roon Nucleus's in terms of sound, not power.  I also think its a shame Antipodes unleashed a new product line shortly after releasing the CX/EX line making the CX/EX dated and devalued shortly after release.  I am watching the price of the CX tumble and plan to pick one up next year to replace the Antipodes Core to run roon core unless Innuos finally releases their OS update and it outperforms roon and has a reasonable search function to browse.

Spotify seems to move into hq streaming, this may change the market somewhat.

Whatever you buy, make sure it is software upgradable and from a somewhat stable company. A NUC and an external re-clocker might be a good start that can be switched later.

For the best I guess the Wadax Reference Server could give the Taiko some competition. Their dac was the best the TAS reviewer had heard.

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/wadax-reference-server.31859/

Well, like all things audio, this escalated quickly. I'm no expert on all things audio or PC and while the Taiko is certainly a beautiful piece of engineering, despite using an off-the-shelf workstation/server motherboard, and no mention of any special consideration given to the network or USB interface. I wasn't aware of any bottleneck presented by SATA based SSDs(certainly not by any HiRes music files), other than file transfers I've seen very little real world improvement using a PCIe M.2 drive, even when I was using it for the OS(which this doesn't) Is there truly any audible difference between SATA and PCIe based solid state storage? I guess the price difference isn't too great and it is a space saver, but they do get extremely hot. Finally, can anyone explain why the Taiko needs such a large bank of capacitors? It's not as though transients draw a bunch of power when expressed digitally, I would think the Taiko server would have a fairly consistent power draw when in use that would never require such a large capacitor bank, unless it is acting as some sort of UPS. Looks nice though.

Lucas Audio LMDS - A computer genius!!!!