Best EXTERNAL DAC suggestions

After a lengthy conversation with a EE friend, and there knowing my interest in having a not too large casing on a Second DAC (small and concealed as a device is a goal), they have suggested a model I look into, that is a DAC referred to as a ProtoDAC. 

There seems to be a growing interest in this as a design.    

My mistake. I did not place the jumpers in position when using RCA connectors! First Watt J2 jumped up in gain!

Now I’m not quite convinced that adding an exterior Denafrips to my Bluesound Node has paid quantitive improvements. Also I think the NAD C1366BEE amp far exceeds the First Watt J2 with my current Cornwall iv match up. However…. The Rogue RP-1 preamp is a nice edition. I’m going to give the Ares ll some additional listening time to decide whether it’s keepable.  I put the First Watt J2 back on the market here. 

See if you can find a Kora - Hermes Non Oversampling dual mono tube DAC. You will be very happy

Really happy! Great choices. Got them all together… non fatigue great sound, musicality that conforms, and sound that is like watching a bubbling brook… Holy ease!

@moose89 ..."current shipments of Rogue RP-1, Ares ll, with the Node v3...".

Probably best to receive it all, let it run in for a few weeks to settle in, and see where you land at next. Report results after, let us know how it goes, and cross the next bridge when you get there. 

@ericsch Nice system man! Hey, if you didn’t hear a difference you didn’t hear a difference — end of story.  But it’s great that you have the confidence and ability to honestly trust your own ears — that’s a true gift several here don’t seem to possess, and glad to hear you no longer have to deal with uber-annoying dropouts! That’s huge in and of itself.

Soix, I assumed that's what you meant. I have an upgraded Node feeding a Pontus II and the mesh system really helped stabilze my streaming experience. My wifi signal is average at best. I really couldn't hear a difference in sound, but it is difficult to AB this.  

Just to be clear, when I recommended adding  a Wi-Fi extender or Mesh system to improve streaming performance I meant that it should meaningfully improve sound quality as well as prevent dropouts.  I neglected to specifically mention that in my prior post so just wanted to clarify. 

Yes, I went from a wifi extender to Google Mesh and connected it as Soix described. Much more stable, no more audio dropouts. 

Everything operates off WiFi. No cable.

You can improve your streaming performance by using a Mesh system and running an Ethernet or CAT 7 or 8 cable from a Mesh node to your Node. Many people do this here and report significant improvements over using Wi-Fi. Alternatively you could get a simple Wi-Fi extender like this, plug it in an outlet in your listening room and just run a cable from from it to the Node (but many here seem to prefer Mesh so I’d do that if it’s in budget)…

https://www.amazon.com/TP-Link-Extender-RE700X-Beamforming-Compatible/dp/B09V455KZ2/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=tp+link+ax+wifi+extender&qid=1690123088&s=electronics&sr=1-5&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.006c50ae-5d4c-4777-9bc0-4513d670b6bc

Here’s a CAT8 cable some people here think performs well…

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B089N94XXV/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_8?smid=A1EA54VWB150Z7&amp=undefined&th=1

Just one more way to boost your streaming performance that’s not terribly expensive FWIW.

moose89...

I also successfully run a Panamax with all but my powered sub.  Having the luxury of 2 isolated dedicated lines in, I've experimented with using amp on seperate line etc, as some recommend, however, the line conditioner, with select positions onboard for type of gear, seems to be the solution.  Also, I've had great success with Furutech replacements to outlet the Panamax male plug.  Onwards!  Pin

I also forgot to say that I run “cleaner power” through a battery backup tower, like one used in computers which includes a Panamax power conditioner plugged into the chain. I think my voltage ranges from 120-125 on readouts… I’m hoping this helps protect my components. 

@decooney 

thanks for your imput. I think in hindsight,what I’m hoping for with my choices….is a bit more smoothness in the top end of my sound, taking a bit of the sting out of the detail that Klipsch provides, as the detail is what makes the Cornwall 4 so much fun. I sit there each time I listen, in amazement. Especially when I replace a sports announcer with Apple Play to a click on my Node remote’s (10 ) streaming channel choices, to quite a contrast!

so, I love clarity and detail and soundstage. I’m hoping I can hook together now, the current shipments of Rogue RP-1, Ares ll, with the Node v3, and keep it going within my eArc Apple Play TV hookup. Everything operates off WiFi. No cable. I’m going to learn more now, implementing DIGITAL RCAs I gather, and want that KNOW HOW.  

...afterthought...running a tricked-out Music Reference RM-10 MK II (full Marigo Tuning Dot treatment)...ALWAYS recommend tubes in the chain with a digitally sourced system.  Pin

Hey moose89...thanks for the topic.

I'm PC sourced to a pro-gear digital preamp...cross-over internally to my active Rythmic L12 servo subwoofer and monitors.  My best friend has a big rig with an $18K Lampizator.  We share the same audio "flavors."  I'm never sad to come home to my rig.  "Clarity & neutrality" is how I would define the DAC...  Focusrite Clarett+ 4Pre USB-C Audio Interface | Sweetwater

My highly skilled west coast Sound Tech and I finetune carefully applied DSP (to 1/100th of a db.)  For the "non-believers" trust, any harm from DSP is greatly outmatched by the sonic benefits in my dedicated studio.  

Tip of the Day...clean all connections every 6 months, remembering to flip your main incoming power at the incoming panel...and, the pins on your tubes, with exacto knife.  

More Peace!   (bold print for old eyes)        Pin

Dodge Audio MK2 7 DAC. 

https://doge.audio/product/doge-7-tube-dac/

It’s a slight change of the way you think, but you’d use mini-XLR to XLR cables frkm your listening position to the amp. You control everything from the CA1000T. 
 

Slightly pre-owned, you can find them for 50% off. They are also Roon Ready. I became a Roon convert, and after a few weeks, I’ll never go back. 
 

another alternative would be the Eversolo DMP-A6. I don’t have one, but over heard incredible things from a gaggle of people. 
 

good luck in your audio journey!

@spawn350 

thanks yes I looked up ACRO 10000T. Nice machine. I wish it had a remote where I could change the friendly preset channels while I stream which is what I love about the Bluesound node.

@vthokie83 Vthokie83

thank you so much for educating me about digital cable. I’m still not clear on how the node 130 connects but I’m sure I can call Crutchfield. It sounds like one end of the RCA is analog and the other end must be digital? Because I know the node has, an RCA looking output.? So the node needs to find its way to the Digital imput  of/to the Denefrips Aries ll. 
 

Research this "https://www.beatechnik.com/product-page/DAC2-MK3" 
Jay's Audio makes one of the finest Cd Transport and DAC 

FWIW, if I’m you my next move would be to a Denafrips Ares 12th Anniversary DAC with a good digital cable. The reason is this version comes with an i2S input so you can later add a DDC (like the Denafrips Iris) and get a further significant performance bump.

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/650003588-denafrips-ares-12th-1-all-aluminum-chasis-with-hifi-tuning-supreme-fuse/

For a digital cable I’d highly recommend the Acoustic Zen MC2 (read reviews) that I recently bought used and was a huge upgrade over a good but budget digital cable, and if you’re patient they can be found used on hifishark for around $200 and very well worth every penny. These two purchases will launch you to a higher performance level entirely.  Just my $0.02 FWIW.

Moose89,

If you are getting the Ares II used and for a great deal, it's a really good DAC for the money. The internal DAC in the Node 130 (3rd generation) is much improved over the 2, and 2i versions, but the Ares II will be a very noticeable upgrade.

SPDIF refers to the topology of the signal, and usually comes in 2 flavors: digital RCA (digital coax) connectors, or optical  The Node 130 has both coaxial RCA and optical SPDIF digital out connectors, so no problem connecting with the Ares II. NOTE: The digital RCA cables are not the same as RCA cables used for analog audio interconnects.

If you later want to upgrade any cables at a reasonable cost: Lavricables, DHLabs, Zavfino, Morrow Audio, and Supra Cables (actually found on eBay) all make great cables and have many affordable options.

Sell the Node and get an Astell & Kern ACRO CA1000T. It really can’t be beaten for anywhere near the money. Plus, you get full-fat Apple Music hi-res with it. Streaming capabilities are amazing and as just a streamer into an external DAC it is very noticeably better than the Node. As a streaming DAC and Preamp? It obliterates the Node. 
 

The added bonus is that you get a world class headphone amp out of it as well. 

@vthokie83 

Really…thank you for the info!

adding to my Bluesound Node v3, as a DAC first time, will be the Denafrips but an Ares ll? A really great used buy  it comes with a SPDIF cable? I’m not sure about all these interconnects… options… and even if SPDIF will work with Node3… then the order of NAD amp- Rogue RP-1, Node3, and the better cable choices for interconnects  

  I’m hoping to get it right … suggestions? And thanks y’all  to the many posts that have helped me decide on WHAT to do …as EXTERNAL DAC quests can be infinite as it appears…Moose

So

SMSL SU-9n Balanced Desktop DAC

And added benefit of this is the remarkable bluetooth for streaming.

Anything more expensive doesn't really get you much in terms of final fidelity.

In a different forum I'm in, people are raving about the new Eversolo DMP A6. It's under a $1000 and people who are coming from a Bluesound node and are shocked at the improvements! I purchased their Master Edition for my headphone setup. My home stereo system I'm using a Holo Audio May KTE and Aurender N200 so this should be an interesting experiment.

@pennfootball71 

When someone supplies a budget it is to tell the people responding "what he can afford to pay".

This may surprise you, but just because pennfootball71 can afford a Lampizator Baltic 4, it doesn't make it a sensible purchase for those of us that can't.

Moose89,

First congratulations on the pre-amp, that's a great start.

Second 12AU7 type tubes have gotten very expensive of late, my favorite are the Mullard NOS (not new production) or the NOS Amperex versions with gold pins....these will both be around $100 per tube, but are amazing tubes. NOS tubes will definitely give you the "warmth and soundstage" that you were referring to.

A very good 12UA7 tube is the NOS RCA "clear top" tubes which can be found under $40 and will be better than any new tube. Brent Jessee will carry a huge selection of 12AU7/6DJ8/and his reputation is perfect http://www.audiotubes.com/12au7.htm

Third if you do decide to go with a $1,000 DAC, I'd recommend looking at the Denafrips Ares 12th edition at $1,000.....not the Enyo/Ares II version for $870. It's definitely worth the extra $130; and is definitely on the "warmth and soundstage" side....and I'd add "fun" as well.

@tony1954 if he buys the DAC I say he will be done buying dacs forever. Pay once cry once!

I believe the CH-FI products have made great strides in the last couple of years, but still, I find my JDS Atom+ for all of $109 to still be a supurb DAC.  I really would like to hear an Aries II though.   I listen only to ripped CDs. ( JRiver, WASAPI/exclusive/asynchronous)

I have a Topping DX3pro+. It measures fantastic, but still has a little less than the JDS. I also have a Schiit Asgard with the new ESS DAC board, and it is a step back from the JDS but was a big step up from the original AKM board.  My specific sound I hear is the edgieness or sibilance of female vocals like Judy Collins and Joni Mitchel. They hit a few notes that unmask anything wrong.  I am an old guy, so all that top in air and depth stuff is lost on me if if it actually exists. 

For my replacement tubes for the Rogue RP-1 , I got these on the way: 1957 Westinghouse 12AU7 PLATINUM+ GRADE Black Plate Tubes Matched Pair 95% NOS.

Any thoughts my good AUDIOGON friends?

@captelee "Not many on this side of the fence care to research. But reading up on Audio Science review you can hear and learn comments from the guys (and gals) who design and build these things...past the pretty boxes."

Dacs fitting the "warm" description over there (or any of the dacs I’ve liked) usually get panned by them. And the dacs they show having the best specs, did not always sound as good or were as engaging to me. Been there and done that with their advice. I’ve found the only way to know is to try the dacs in your own room, system, and setup.Then listen close, over several weeks to get a better idea of what someone might prefer and enjoy more.

I’ve got a Node and love it paired with my MHDT Orchid DAC that has an output tube. Tube rolling is fun since the sound signature changes accordingly. I also will be buying a Teddy Pardo linear power supply to improve the Node (streaming).

@pennfootball71 

The OP has a $1,000 budget and you suggest a Lampizator Baltic 4 which lists for $6,850?

Let them eat cake.

Hands down beats the Bluesound and under $1k.

Topping D70 Pro Sabre, has to be Pro which is basically the MKII. I have one here at work, a Topping G5, a Mytek Brooklyn; and a T+A DAC 200 at home, as well as a iFi Pro iDSD (MkI, not signature) and this D70 Pro holds its own, very impressive at the price point. Can be used in Preamp mode, missing a headphone amp. 

Not many on this side of the fence care to research. But reading up on Audio Science review you can hear and learn comments from the guys (and gals) who design and build these things...past the pretty boxes. 

I’ve watched the audiophile chats here with great interest over the last couple years and have reached the conclusion that the line between snake oil and improved performance is highly subjective. Part of my fun in the hobby is acquire knowledge and apply it to a MidFi budget. I have incredible sound per dollar thanks in large part to knowledge shared here.

My day job for 40 years has been at the steering wheel of a successful boutique ad agency that provides marketing strategy, brand positioning, creative services and placements. IMO no money is wasted if the buyer gets what they wanted, it’s all about marginal utility. I’m thrilled at my $4k system and it is entirely possible that my neighbor gets equal satisfaction out of a theoretical $40k system.

All cables are low pass filters of some sort, and in a high resolution stereo every one will probably sound a bit different at first use. How much that is worth is up to each purchaser.

I didn’t listen to both but did build a theory that guided me a try Mogami.My Wharfedale Lintons are tweaked by designer Peter Comeau to deliver a rich low end and uses crossover right at their big box baffle step. Love ‘em but they don’t have a natural sparkle to cymbal crashes or acoustic strings through their fabric tweeters.

As I was digging into the specs and reviews on Canare and Mogami, Mogami had lower capacitance, and was sometimes noted as being “less dark.”

These two brands are similar in price and performance…and are very popular in live stage use and recording studios. I’m impressed with the audible improvement I got from Mogami but it was not a side by side choice over Canare and I suspect I would have seen improvement from either brand.

@retrocrownfan Just curious what have you compared the Canare and Mogami  cables to?  Would be interesting/useful for context. 

Cable rabbit hole :) These guys serve the recording studio market. https://www.proaudiola.com

I really like the sound of low capacitance cable, which is a characteristic of most all Mogami products. Clearer high frequencies and overall higher current. My Heritage Wharfedale Lintons got noticeably louder but lost a little of their sound stage at first, but I figured that my analog preamp gain was too high and I just didn’t hear the higher noise floor until I plugged in the Mogami 3103 cables! They are very musical with just enough bite to not add any obvious warmth. Great value IMO.

@retrocrownfan

hey appreciate your comments on Mogami … so I ordered a couple RCA pairs off EBay to hook up my Rogue preamp! They are priced right. What do you like about them? Moose

I have no experience with Gold Lion tubes, but I'm sure they are great tubes based on reputation. 

I think the CV 4003 tubes are military grade variants of the 12au7, but are essentially the same. 

@mr_m I used Brimar CV4003 from upscale audio in the RP-1. I think these and your mullards are essentially the same tubes. Very nice improvement but the Gold Lions aren’t too far behind

If you are looking for warmth and soundstage, put some NOS Mullard  12au7 tubes in that Rogue. I had a Rogue Pharaoh integrated and replaced the stock JJ tubes with the Mullards. This took the Pharaoh to another level. Warmth and 3D stage in spades! Not cheap, a pair will set you back approx. $140, but well worth the investment. 

Tubed R2R DAC.........The One and Only...............drum roll please...................................................................Audio Mirror Toubadour IV-SE.............Everyone that owns this unit is Gaga over it. You will be too.

I have to see/hear if an EXTERNAL DAC will now be order?

First, congrats on the new pre!  I’m sure you’re gonna hear very significant improvements, and please let us know what you think once you getter burned in a bit.  
That said, significant further improvements await ridding yourself of the Node’s onboard DAC especially now that you’ve got a good preamp that’ll more fully expose the benefits of a good separate DAC.  I think you’ve got a lot to look forward to in the future, and congrats again on the new pre.

I didn't know any better and was using the Node for a preamp.  I have rhe 2i.  It is a digital volume control and "bit strips"  I changed it to "fixed volume".  Very important!  I have very similar speakers.  I use a passive Khozmo preamp.  My system is quiet, detailed and neutral.  You have lots of choices to make your system sound better.