Try the Swedish label BIS. They were purchased by Apple who just canned their founder so act fast before all of their offerings are offered in mp3 only.
Otherwise most of the excellent Classical Labels are smaller independents, such as Alia Vox, Somm, Alpha, Channel Classics, and numerous others.
The so called majors-after all the consolidation in the industry it’s now Decca, Warner and Sony- frequently use free lance engineering teams and no longer have stables of regular personnel. They therefore do not have the ‘House Sound’ that they formerly had, and there is substantial variability as to their recording capabilities
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@mahler123
I do like the BIS label but find them very inconsistent and they can tend to be bright and rather thinner in body. But when they get it right they are very good. And yes there are many smaller labels producing excellent recordings. But again not a consistent house sound. Since I stream from Qobuz it’s very easy to sample many recordings of the same work and fine the best recorded version. And I agree the old “major” recording labels just don’t produce the best recordings anymore.
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I have had many reach out and touch the musicians moments with BIS, particularly in Chamber Music; try their Haydn Quartets. BIS had been supporting SACD, which is my preferred way to access DSD. BIS doesn’t boost the midranges as some labels are tend to do and in Concerto discs they tend to not spotlight the soloists unnaturally. You may hear this a thinness but I hear it as realistic timbre. Some of BIS orchestras are not top tier, but imo they have been recorded faithfully.
Channel Classics is another label that did stunning work in SACD, particularly the Rachel Podger discs. I am less a fan of their Budapest Festival Orchestra discs, but that could be because I think Ivan Fischer should have stopped recording 20 years ago.
Alia Vox and Jordi Savall recordings are really good. Try his album devoted to La Folia, or the Beethoven Cycle or Schubert 8/9. A lot of Savall’s output just doesn’t sustain my interest but man it’s well recorded.
The Canadian label Analekta is small but has some good sounding recordings. Harmonic Mundi hasn’t been mentioned here but they have a generally high standard.
The so called majors are a crap shoot now as we have discussed. They probably always were. DG had those pristine vinyl surfaces but no bass. Occasionally they would put out a stunner such as Pollini Chopin Etudes or Karajan Bruckner or Mahler. Phillips also had quiet surfaces but failed to exploit the likes of the Amsterdam Concertgebouw for most of the Haitink years. RCA was probably the most consistent. Columbia spent years mixing Bernstein and Ormandy as if people would be listening on AM car radios
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@mahler123
Columbia Classical recordings have been unlistenable to me since my vinyl days.
In agree on Analekta and Savall. Don’t get me wrong I do like some BIS recordings. I especially like their Glazunov Symphony series.
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Columbias got much better with digital remastering. Bernstein Mahler 7 best case in point; try comparing the LP, which sounds like it was recorded in a phone booth, with the CD issue. Or try any Bruno Walter CD, especially the Japanese remasters that they used for the big Walter box
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@mahler123
I agree the digital remastered versions are better. The Walter Beethoven Symphonies with the Columbia Symphony (an in house group) are very nice.
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The old Deccas, the made in England Londons (doesn’t have to be a "blue back"). Even some of their mid-price "Treasury" series (budget reissues) that were pressed in England. Their recording techniques and the consistency of the end product, from mastering to manufacture, were second to none long before the "audiophile" label appeared. (Yes, I have tons of the speciality labels that came into being for audiophiles). Good repertoire too. Most of my classical LPs were acquired decades ago. Sadly, I listen only occasionally to these- I have a room full of classical records adjacent to my listening room, where the main "collection" resides, including rock warhorses- mostly OGs, jazz, and incoming acquisitions are located.
If you are after particular performances by specific symphonies/conductors/featured performers, different question.
PS: the EMI ASDs were pretty great. I also bought quite a few RCA doggies (both shaded and white) and Mercury Living Presence back in the day.
Appears that you are after modern digital equivalents? Can't help there. The above is all earlier, analog material on LP.
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@whart
Yes my interest is in Digital recordings. I had an LP collection similar to yours but sold it in the late 90s. For Classical music I definitely prefer modern digital recordings.
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You have accurately described some major labels. +1 on BIS. Also, Proprius offers recordings of excellent timbre, staging and imaging. However, my two favorites are 2L and the small classical collection on Stockfish. These two labels just get timbre and spatial presentation right from my perspective, including dense images and natural dynamics. 2L offers extensive liner notes on the composition, performance and recording technique where they use a column of microphones as well as others placed in the venue to record “the conductor’s perspective” as they imply. Their collection of pieces from Nordic composers and main stream composers played by Nordic orchestras is eclectic. Performances are emotional and energetic to my liking, but some may say to an extent. If you have not yet, give a listen to the label. They stream on Qobuz. Try Borders, a modern orchestral piece with some unusual solo instruments like harmonica or Magnificat, for chorus, orchestra and organ. Both evoke much emotion. Also try their Mozart Concerto collection or any one of their chamber or ancient music collections. Hope you enjoy.
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@jsalerno277
Thanks I will check them out. Never heard of these labels.
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Qobuz does not have a good label search. I also use Qobuz through the Aurender Conductor app. That has a label search but it also is not good. My recommendation is to go onto the 2L home page (www.2L.no) or Stockfish home page (www.stockfish-records.de), pick a title, and search in Qobuz by title. If on Stockfish, with its very limited classical catalogue, check out folk/jazz fusion titles by Katja Werka and Sara K. On the two I recommended, a Qobuz search for Borders (Henning Sommerro: Trondheim Symphony Orchestra) or Magnificat (Nidarosdomens jentekor & Trondheimsolistene) brings you to the albums. Note spell check changed spelling of title in the original post … use Magnificat.
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@jsalerno277
Thanks I will try that. I also use the Aurender app.
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@jfrmusic Either way, positive or negative, let me know what your is opinion of their recording tech.
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I am really dyslectic and it comes out at times. Forgive me “your is”.
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Decca from the late 1950s's 60s, 70s, Acoustic sounds has released re-masters of RCA, Decca and others. DG about a year or two ago started the Original Source series of recordings - vinyl mastered from the original tapes from the 50s, 60s, 70s. Incredible sound. Check out The Tracking Angle. Lots good classical info and music and re-releases and re-masters.
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I concur with those who like BIS and Harmonia Mundi, although I do have one BIS CD which has seemed bright. I have one Audioquest CD of 18th Century trios that is fantastic--the three performers sound like they're in my listening room (helps that there isn't a lot of reverb in the recording), but haven't heard other AQ recordings.
I mostly concur with the OP about his label preferences, although I'm not that impressed with the DG CDs and SACD I own.
I'm inclined to think that well-remastered analog recordings that were originally good can often be the best-sounding digital media. So there are some Decca/London recordings and Philips like that, and even Columbia, whose LPs during the '70s were often not good, even if the vinyl was quiet.
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@jsalerno277
I listened to the opening work on Borders on the 2L label. I agree, fantastically realistic recordings excellent transparency, great soundstage with depth and very well balanced with smooth open highs and deep low end. Plus the music is very good too. Thanks for the recommendation. I will explore more of their offerings.
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One label that I believe has some of the best (if not the best) sounding classical recordings is Challenge Classics (not Channel Classics). The performances are great as well. I believe the label is out of the Netherlands. Their recording engineer is Bert van der Wolf (who's own personal company is called The Spirit of Turtle) who I believe utilizes the most progressive recording methods and finest equipment. With some very careful searching you can find it on Qobuz. In Qobuz the resolution is 24-bit 44.1 kHz. But you can get up to quad DSD from the label at the following address (this is for a Prokofiev recording as an example): Prokofiev: Symphonies Nos. 1 & 5 (Download) – The Spirit of Turtle. If the link doesn't work, go to: spiritofturtle.com. There is a pretty healthy catalog. The finer your system is the more these recordings will reward you.
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@ddgtt
Sorry I always get those two labels mixed up. Yes Challenge Classics is the one I meant and the one with great Prokofiev Symphony series.
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My purchases of classical music these days are almost entirely on SACD. I look for great perfomances and great sound!
My decisions are mainly informed by Presto's website Presto Music | All things musical… on your doorstep and streaming / download service and if I like what I hear, I buy the disk usually from Presto. Presto makes it easy to see several professional reviews and compare dozens of recordings of the same work. They now work closely with Gramophone magazine, who have been reviewing both performance and recoding quality for over 100 years.
Hyperion, BIS, Chandos and Pentatone feature highly! So does the LSO Live series from the London Symphony Orchestra.
Recently Decca have produced some outstanding recordings on CD and sometimes vinyl - for example Klaus Makela's Sibelius and Shostakovich.
2L is staggeringly good in surround sound, though as a small company it is limited in repertoire.
Recent Berliner Philharmonic releases on Blu-Ray can be stunning - eg Kirill Petrenko's Tchaikovsky 6th is spell-binding and gut-wrenching
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I have found the London ffrr recordings to often be outstanding. When going through used record bins I pull any one of these I find.
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London was the American division of Decca, and its just easier to refer to them as Decca, especially because they dropped the London moniker decades ago.
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@richardbrand +1!
Presto's website and catalogue of recordings are fantastic. The best I have found so far and unmatched for sheer volume and depth across digital, vinyl, books, DVDs, Blu-rays, and more offerings. I have purchased a number of CDs and SACDs from them and will try the streaming service soon. If unfamiliar, Presto is in the UK so FYI for US purchasers, my selections typically are delivered in about 10 days from date of purchase.
I, too, am a long time Gramaphone subscriber. Recently switched from the print to the digital version to gain access to their vast reviews database, but already missing holding that thick, lavish, and superbly written monthly magazine in my hands. Might weaken and have to have both!
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@sargonicuse
One more bonus! Presto's streaming service offers file downloads as well. Means you should get bit-perfect copies to your storage, versus the hit and miss of streaming ...
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@richardbrand
I had great success purchasing and downloading my purchases from Presto. But now with an excellent streamer and Qobuz I just stream everything. The quality is equal to my downloads and ripped CDs and the selection is staggeringly complete. No lost bits. I compare my ripped CDs that I have stored on my streamer hard drive to the streamed version. No difference. If you stream you need your streamer connected to the router via Ethernet. No WiFi. Plus Qobuz has an enormous selection of HiRes versions. Also as soon as a Classical CD is released it’s usually on Qobuz within a day.
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@jfrmusic
Glad you have no difference between streaming and downloading, but this is not guaranteed! By the way, are you using software to do the bit-wise comparison, or your ears?
Presto has a streaming service in addition to its ’normal’ website. For a fixed monthly charge you can download to your heart’s content.
Most of my music comes from SACD in multi-channel format. Even if Qobuz supports this (?) Australian Internet is not robust enough to avoid drop-outs, at least where I am
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@richardbrand
I use my ears. I have my CD library which I ripped stored on my Internal drive in the streamer. So that’s what was on the CD. I then Stream the same Album on Qobuz and can easily compare. No difference. Qobuz is $10-11 per month to stream anything you want including HiRes. You can’t stream DSD or SACD yet but you can purchase and down load those from Qobuz. Internet where I live is solid but the best experience with no drops is via Ethernet from the router or switch to the streamer.
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@jfrmusic
I wish my ears were good enough to detect that every bit is perfect!
Interested in your comment:
you need your streamer connected to the router via Ethernet. No WiFi
What has been your experience of WiFi that makes you rule it out? Are you in a high-density environment?
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@richardbrand
Before I got a Streamer I used my MacBook to stream Qobuz using WiFi and periodically I would experience a signal drop and have to reselect the track. Now with an Ethernet wired connection to my streamer that never happens. A solid connection.
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One label not yet mentioned is Lyrita, a UK company. Another I like that receives little notice is CRD (again UK), who released some fantastic recordings of Baroque material from the likes of harpsichordist Trevor Pinnock. Stunning sound quality.
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@jfrmusic
Thanks for the clarification. Are you somebody who claims to hear differences in ethernet cables / routers?
My place in Canberra is almost impossible to wire with ethernet cables. Built by a Finn, it has mainly brick inside walls with no cavities, and insulation filled stud outers, faced with aluminium foil, chicken wire and concrete. My partner's place in Sydney is almost as challenging. Her business runs on WiFi with two WiFi mesh routers running on Power over Ethernet. All the phones are wireless Internet phones, all the computers run on WiFi.
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I've always found Philips and Decca's 1970s recordings to be good.
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@richardbrand
You don’t have to wire your house to bring Ethernet to your streamer. My Router is a good 30 feet from the room where my audio system is located. I bought a WiFi Extender and plugged it into an electrical outlet near my Streamer. The Extender has an Ethernet connection port. I run a short Ethernet cable from the extender to the streamer. The Extenders are very inexpensive and there are several brands.
And yes I can definitely discern the differences between cables. It’s quite obvious. Especially where digital is concerned. Digital jitter added by noise causes the distortion we hear as glare and good cables and even good Ethernet switches can reduce noise and hence jitter. I use an EtherRegen switch between my Extender and Streamer and connect the switch to the streamer with a DHLabs Ethernet cable. Makes a noticeable difference when you reduce the noise and jitter.
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@jfrmusic
I don’t think you really meant WiFi Extender in this context. Maybe Ethernet Over Power? Which in turn is completely different to Power Over Ethernet!
My understanding is that both adapters for Ethernet Over Power have to be connected to the same house circuit. I have over a dozen circuits!
I am not sure how the power conditioning people react to the idea of deliberately injecting high frequency noise into a house circuit.
I think I am better off with Sneakernet where I run across my room and plug a USB storage device directly in!
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@richardbrand
No I meant a WiFi Extender. This is what I have.
RE650 TP-Link
AC2600 Wi-Fi Range Extender
Far Reaching Wi-Fi and Powerful Performance
Powerful Quad-Antenna design with Beamforming delivers highly targeted Wi-Ficonnections to improve throughput and signal quality for stronger Wi-Fi across your home. The Intelligent Processing Engine balances the demands of your devices to keep their connections fast and uninterrupted, sending Wi-Fi traffic to dedicated processors while the powerful dual-core CPU handles the rest.
This does not send any signal over the house power line
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@jfrmusic
Not surprised you are confusing me. When I previously asked why you wrote
you need your streamer connected to the router via Ethernet. No WiFi
you replied
using WiFi and periodically I would experience a signal drop and have to reselect the track. Now with an Ethernet wired connection to my streamer that never happens
Now you are saying you don't use an end-to-end wired Ethernet but use a WiFi link.
You can audibly detect differences in digital cables and hear that there are no bit-errors in your data stream? Incredible!
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@richardbrand
The Extender gives you a local Ethernet Connection. This is recommended by all Streamer manufacturers when the router is not near your system. It is not the same as just using a WiFi signal to stream. Google the link for the TP - Link products. They work and provide a strong stable WiFi access point with an RJ45 Ethernet port.
Also in current technology there is error correction for transfer problems but noise on the waveform induces jitter. If there were bit errors meaning lost bits we couldn’t transfer money or use the Internet in modern society. The problem is jitter. It doesn’t corrupt the bits or drop them it adds a timing problem as to how the bits are received and processed that adds distortion. For all purposes other than audio jitter does not really have an effect but for audio quality it’s a source of poorer sound. It’s what separates good digital sound from great digital sound. The bits are always there. You may be referring to drops which are when the Internet signal is lost for a millisecond or so and you hear the glitch or you loose a signal because of interference or load. We don’t listen to bank or other types of transmissions. So jitter is not an issue. But with music it is. This is the reason you need a good internet connection preferably with a switch that clocks the bits and good cabling that eliminates noise. Digital noise: jitter is the cause of most bad digital audio
And yes as I mentioned I can quite easily hear the differences in cables.
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@jfrmusic
Yes, in my experience TP-link has been the fastest of the internet gateways I have used. The WiFi mesh routers I mentioned are TP-Link, from memory.
Let’s be clear though. The WiFi extender gives you an Ethernet at each end, but the WiFi component in the middle is not Ethernet. As I have posted elsewhere, Ethernet on its own does not guarantee packets are delivered. Neither does the Internet Protocol (IP). Transmission Control Protocol (TCP/IP) does guarantee that errors are detected and corrected, but cannot guarantee timely delivery. Streaming normally uses datagrams (User Datagram Protocol or UDP/IP) which tries to keep a steady stream of packets but does not attempt to back-fill missing packets or correct errors.
File downloads, emails and banking transactions are not time critical, so they use TCP/IP with error detection and correction, and can be relied on, even over unreliable technologies like Ethernet. I have not managed to find out whether Qobuz and similar streaming providers have their own protocols, and if so, what they are. If you get drop-outs, obviously error detection and correction have stopped working.
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@richardbrand
You can try Qobuz on a 30 day trial. The quality is excellent and equal to the CD source. Now if you are using your computer as the server or streamer as I initially did you may experience WiFi issues. I would periodically loose connection and have to restart the track. Once I got my streamer which required an Ethernet connection and I plugged in the TP Extender which boosted the signal and gave me local Ethernet connectivity I never had an issue. And as I noted the sound quality of my ripped tracks on my disk sound identical to the same track streamed from Qobuz. Now that may also be due to the quality of my streamer and DAC. But I can say Qobuz is addictive. You have access to just about anything available on CD especially in the Classical genre.
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richardbrand
Streaming normally uses datagrams (User Datagram Protocol or UDP/IP) which tries to keep a steady stream of packets but does not attempt to back-fill missing packets or correct errors.
Can you give us examples of services using UDP/IP?
I have not managed to find out whether Qobuz and similar streaming providers have their own protocols, and if so, what they are.
Qobuz and Tidal both use TCP/IP protocols. Bit perfect.
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I'll preface this with stating, that I tend to listen almost exclusively to post WWII music, up through the present era, so my recommendations will be from labels that record and release such music.
BIS is consistently good.
Reference Recordings is always good. Check out the recording "Dawn to Dust" with the wonderful piece, EROS (Goddess of the Dawn", by Augusta Read Thomas. The recording is great overall, but the percussion is exceptionally well recorded. Jason Victor Serinus gave this recording his highest rating.
I love almost everything I've bought on the Kairos Music Music label. always a great soundstage and imaging, great dynamics.
But this one comes with a big caveat; the majority of the music they record is avant-garde, and pretty "thorny" sounding, so YMMV.
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Back in the 70's, Nonesuch released a series of recordings called, "Spectrum: New American Music", specifically to highlight classical music of the time.
There were recordings by: Elliott Carter, Stephan Wolpe, Charles Wuorinen, Donald Martino, Joseph Schwantner, etc.
These universally have extremely realistic soundstages and imaging. On many of them, it seems like I can get off my listening chair, and walk into the soundstage and among the musicians.
These can be found pretty regularly used, for not a lot of $$.
They album covers all have a similar look:
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@simonmoon
Thanks for the suggestions. Will check them out.
@vetsc5
I mentioned DG in my OP. They have some really nice recordings and have continued to improve.
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I noted your preference for big orchestra music and it's sound. I doubt that I can add anything of value to the present recommendations and comments. However, if you decide that smaller scale music is of interest, don't overlook the Steinway & Sons label. There recordings are excellent and their performers are typically quite talented. Typically music for solo piano.
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@newbee
Thanks. Will check that label.
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A lot of good recommendations. I think that some of the orchestras putting out recordings on their own labels do decent sounding recordings like LSO. To the excellent recommendations made above, I would add Astree and Naive.
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Treasury of sound budget arm of decca/London sound pretty good. Rca Living stereo white dog/shaded dog, some sound good. Mercury living presence, again some sound good. Angel/emi, DG, Philips, turnabout, are a few more. It's a crap shoot really. Depends on how well the record was recorded/pressed. I own a few classical recordings that are nothing special, but there are others in the collection that sound amazing. Nothing is going to come close to the real thing.
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