Hello all, I am looking for some input on the best way to add tubes to my current mess. I currently have what I am sure everyone here would consider barely a step up from my parents zenith HI-FI circa 1977. please keep in mind I am lucky if I can afford to look in the window of an actual audio store. I currently have a Peachtree nova 300 and a Marantz CD player and a pair of monitor audio silver 500 speakers. A friend gave me a blue sound node 2i also. I have always wanted a tube powered amp. I see these Chinese amps like the Muzishare X7 and Willsenton R8 that have lots of great reviews. Or maybe a tube DAC. Then I see the Black Ice for ss-x. Each having less tubes respectively. Not sure how much that matters but I would think the more tubes the more tube sound one could expect. I would like to be in the $1000. range but would go to $1500 if I had to. My goal is to find the best most cost effective way to enter the tube world.
Willsenton, Muzishare, and Doge Audio all make wonderful tube amps. The Doge stuff is really well made; the caps and topology are super regardless of where the amp is made.
I think it's important to recognize that there is a bunch of clone or otherwise inexpensive mid-fi gear coming out of China, but there is great stuff in its own right too.
The problem is it is not as easy to get these amps with trade wars, increased product demand, and labor shortages.
Take a look at Rogue RP1 preamp or the RP5 - the latter is over your budget but more features (if needed) for integrated, Rogue Cronus - used , although probably still a bit over budget
Since these entry level Chinese tube amps have peeked your interest, why don't you search out the YouTube channel called Thomas and Stereo.
Thomas has reviewed more of them than any other channel I've seen. It will give you a good up close look, a run down on all specs and features, and he does speak comparatively about them.
Keep saving. Get 4-5K rolled in a sock. Then make a purchase. This is what I did. I saved for 4 or so years, squirreled away every dollar, coin I,could. When it was time to buy, it was awesome!
@lowrider57 Thank you. I did see those and realized they have no remote volume control. I will change volume on different tracks quite often. I am to lazy after work to get off my arse to do it! All said I am happy to spend a little more to support the man. As well as the comfort of some warranty coverage and return period if I don't like it. I feel those extras are worth his asking price for the current model which includes remote!
Well I missed the Aric Unlimited 2 listed here. So I will keep looking I might just end up contacting Aric about a new one. The little interaction I had with him was first rate. He is off for some vacation time but I think I will be giving him my money when he returns. Thanks to everyone for the input. Everything was valuable to some degree and I very much appreciate that!
I would look for a good vintage tube amp in that price range but remember that you can easily drop about 1500 to 2000 on good tubes for it just a thought to remember when you talk about tube amps.
powemi"This is the reason I have a hard time with "audiophiles" they are mostly pretentious dicks"
English is not my native language and I still struggle with it but understand that in American English the term "dick" is slang for penis or private police officer so would you please explain what definition you are using here? Perhaps you mean private police officer because most of us do listen in private and penis does not make sense. Do you mean you wish their were more women as in "vaginas" hear? If you want us to understand you please be more specific, direct, and concise.
The Aric Audio tube preamps have low output impedance for a tube pre making them very compatible impedance wise with most amps. The variable gain makes them compatible with most amps even those with low sensitivity rating (high gain). His Unlimited at $900 is a great deal!
Go listen to systems and see what sound you like. You maybe happy with a solid state amp with a tube preamp etc. Keep looking and dont rush into it. Perhaps if you can post your location someone here can share listening time on their system with you.
A used Rogue tube INT would be smart. No idea how much that is but should be under $1,500? Will have a resale value and they sound excellent. Usually people are advised to buy speakers first but that may not apply in your case.
@hilde45 Uh yeah Probably my ADD but I've read that e mail you posted at least a dozen times. I get nothing lol. I liken it to talking to my wife she puts way to much filler in-between the facts. I loose track of what she's trying to tell me. I have always said I have a simple brain. Show me an equation start to finish I can usually deal with that just fine. Don't get me wrong I really do appreciate you posting it and I think if I could reduce it to a couple sentences it might make sense. At least now you know for sure what kind of dummy you are dealing with! I am trying to verify that the Aric Unlimited will be compatible for sure, I would think with the variable output I will be fine. When I do and if it is compatible and still available I will move forward with that option.
I was considering the same thing as you and resolved my situation a week ago. I have a Perreaux 200W Integrated Amp with Shahinian Arc speakers and was after a more engaging sound. With the Perreaux I can de-couple the pre, so I bought an old second hand Audio Research LS7 pre-amp with upgraded tubes added it to the system and I'm very pleased with the improvement in quality of sound at a manageable cost :-)
Hi johnfritter, you are absolutely correct about the variable output control on the rear. Me personally,I find this one of the best features ever. I run different amps through my systems. Some very low gain First Watt amps,and a higher gain pair of Monarchy amps. Having that feature makes amp matching easy for me. The Aric pre will also allow you to go crazy with tube rolling too. In fact,if I was in a little different position,I was going to pick up that pre for my second system.
Regarding matching, here's an email I got from Almarg, an expert and a gentleman. RIP.
On matching Preamp and Amp
Almarg:
"To assure impedance compatibility the 10x rule of thumb guideline should be applied at the audible frequency for which the output impedance of the component providing the signal is highest. In most cases impedances are specified at a mid-range frequency such as 1 kHz. It is very common for tube preamps to have output impedances at deep bass frequencies that are much higher than that specified value, often 2K or 3K or even 4K ohms. That rise at low frequencies results from the output coupling capacitor that is used in the majority of tube preamps, and also in a few solid state preamps. The impedance of a capacitor increases as frequency decreases.
So ideally the 10x rule of thumb guideline should usually be applied based on the output impedance at 20 Hz, in the case of a tube-based preamp. If as is often the case the component’s output impedance at 20 Hz is not known, and is not indicated in published measurements (such as those Stereophile often provides), and if the use of an output coupling capacitor in that component cannot be ruled out based on available information, to be safe a considerably higher ratio than 10x should be used, something like 50x or 75x IMO.
This applies, btw, to tube-based source components as well as to tube-based preamps.
Also, to clarify a common misconception I should add that failing to meet that guideline does not necessarily mean that there will be an impedance compatibility problem. It depends on how much **variation** there is in the output impedance over the frequency range. But meeting that guideline (at all audible frequencies) assures that there won’t be an impedance compatibility problem.
I should note also that a significant number of tube-based preamps use coupling transformers at their outputs, and therefore avoid that low frequency impedance rise. Although depending on the specific implementation transformer-coupled outputs might have downsides of their own. Atma-Sphere MP-1 and MP-3 preamps, btw, cleverly avoid the use of both capacitors and transformers at their outputs. (I’m not sure about the UV-1). As far as I am aware they are unique in that respect, among tube-based preamps.
I suspect your head is spinning now. There is never just the right amount of info available. Either too little or too much. And it can go from one to the other really quick. Go ahead and build the ST-120 kit. I bought my ST70 assembled by Bob. I hear that the kits have good instructions. And Bob is always easily reached. Besides, you will save some $$$ and I believe it will meet your need and sound really good. FWIW, I have Don Sachs custom build of this kit. It sounds very good
@rocray I spotted that Aric Unlimited last night and am interested. But am curious if having the variable output will it mate with the Peachtree. I assume that is the reason for the variable output, compatible with more equipment correct? My goal today is to try and verify what Peach tree recommends. Then look into the variable output option as I have no previous experience. If it will mate up I think that might be the best way to go at this point.
Tube sound is not a myth. However, it is about the distortion that is made, vs the distortion made by traditional solid state. In both cases you are up against a design issue- being able to apply enough feedback. If you could do this there would be no difference between solid state and tubes.
The advantage tubes have is that they make enough of the lower ordered harmonics to allow the ear's masking principle to prevent the higher ordered harmonics from being audible. This causes them to be noticeably smoother than traditional solid state and quite literally is why tubes are still around decades on after being declared 'obsolete' in the 1960s. Back then though, solid state amps were abominations for the most part- the declaration was premature.
If you can apply enough feedback you can get solid state to be as smooth as tubes, if you also pay attention to the distortion signature (keeping the lower orders as the predominant distortion product). The funny thing is that if you pay attention to the distortion signature, the difference between an amp with 1% THD at full power and one with 0.05% will be very hard to hear in a side by side comparison.
~~~ Used Cayin, but these are rare/very hard to come by. New is under 1500, or LM(Line magnetic) intergrated KT88 Either amp is a good bang for the buck.
There is an Aric Audio Unlimited II preamp for sale on this site.
The Aric Audio stuff gets great user reviews, all hand built. I find that the smaller audio companies like Aric Audio, space tech labs and Don Sachs give you great sound for a lot less money.
There is an Aric Audio Unlimited II preamp for sale on this site. I have the original Unlimited that I run with a couple different First Watt amps,(F5,J2) and occasionally a pair of Monarchy Audio amps with,what I feel ,are really great results. Just a recommendation since you're looking at tube preamps as a possibility.
+1 lowrider. If your Peachtree is driving your current speakers to satisfaction and has preouts and amp inputs I would suggest you get a tube preamp. Quicksilver is a great option. Also check out Aric Audio, give him a call.
You could then compare the tube pre to use of the Peachtree pre. You could then save for a tube DAC to serve your CD player and the Node. As mentioned your speakers are not the most tube friendly so sticking with SS may be your best option.
You might consider this maker, Erhard Audio. Here's his entry level: https://www.erhard-audio.com/Europa.html Above this, for a few hundred more, there are nice units that include wood.
About 1989, I was going to turn selling my baseball card collection into some very good speakers. Well, I only got $900 from a card dealer, but it was better than nothing. I went to Quintessence Audio In Naperville, IL and listened to one after another speaker for several weeks. I even decided to up my total to $1000 to replace my Allison Ones. I gave it up and sold the AO’s to my college roommate and friend. He still has them and enjoys them. That makes me glad.
To the point, I restarted the same quest but now had a good for the money pair of Paradigms that were large bookshelf size. I did the same thing but took less than several hours listening. in one day. THEN, the dealer put a different preamp in the system. I had a PS Audio SS preamp at the time with a SS amp. This preamp all of a sudden made the music come to life when no speaker seemed to do it for me. After several musical selections, I asked him what made this sound so good? He told me that this preamp was a tube preamp and was THE best sounding one in the store. Turns out that preamp was the Audible Illusions 2D with a very good phono section in it, too. It cost $800 with a small discount Frank gave me. That was my first taste of tubes. I had a Quad 405 SS amp for 28 years with the Mod Squad modifications done about 1/2 way through. The change to the Audible Illusions preamp was the greatest change by far I ever made in my system. The music became a joy everytime I turned it on. That preamp illuminated the sound as good tube components do, but was built to last, too. I had that as the main part of my system happily for over 14 years and changed it only to get the Audible Illusions 3A with the John Curl phono section to be able to use low output MC cartridges.
You mentioned that phono was not happening, but they also make preamps with no phono that sound the same way otherwise. You could get an Audible Illusions 3 used for about $900-1100. Use Audible Illusion matched tube sets (identical tubes that are electrically very close to the same). The other tubes you could get don’t last as long in an AI preamp. I had the AI 3A for another 9 years until I went whole hog and got a sensational preamp (TRL DUDE)--much more money, but I still have it and it is awesome.
Trying to get the sound you’re looking for in other ways at that price may be very difficult. The AI preamps come up for sale now and then on the websites. It will make a bigger difference to your sound than most anything you can do. Keep the SS int. amp and later, you can upgrade just the amp and get better sound. I did that too, but the biggest kick was from the AI preamp.
Go used & you’ll exponentially more bang for your buck. You’ll need to take a little time though. Watch the adds here. Check EBay too. You’ll see a lot of amps. People say to be a little more careful. But, plenty of people here have had great experiences. I have many other bigger ticket things but, not audio stuff yet. Plus, reading up on all the kinds of Amos you’ll see will give you a better foundation. Good luck. And, as long as you’re enjoying music on your system… nothing else matters.
Hey johnfritter, no you are definitely not alone.I am a beginner as well, and on this same intro to tubes journey.I too have been looking into the similar amps out of China, etc. and some of them sound awesome for the money.
I ultimately decided to pursue Black Ice.
I called Mike at Black Ice, had a long discussion with him today, then Walter at Underwood.Both gentlemen are awesome, btw.I recommend giving them call and see what they have to say.There’s also a review of the F11 and F22 up on hometheaterhifi.com if you are interested.
I pulled the trigger on the Black Ice F22 tonight!For now I will use the Peachtree as a DAC until I can determine the next move.If I end up preferring the Black Ice tube sound, then the Peachtree will get sold and I will buy an external DAC, maybe streamer like you have.I only stream Tidal & Quboz currently…
Maybe someday I will tread into Carver, Raven, Primaluna et al territory, and some higher sensitivity speakers as well.Well, I can dream for now anyway.
FYI, I also have a Peachtree Nova 300, and I am running the Black Ice SS-X through the Nova’s loop section. FWIW, definitely “smoothed” out the sound and makes a difference in the bass as well in my small 8x10ft room.(there is a whole forum on the SS-X BTW)
We shall see how this experiment turns out!Best of luck with yours!
Add a Fraya + you’ll get a full blown taste of tubes, 2K or so..
What you think guys.. a long with the Quicksilver MBs.
I have a pair of Cary SixPacs all dolled up. Efficient speakers and a GREAT preamp, look out. EL34 voiced BUT they will run all the valves 6V6, 6L6, EL34, KT 66, 77, 88. 1-2k depends on the goodies..
SixPac/C20. World class old school sonics. Samra C20.. World class
Oh poo OP, he won't ship? I just saw your post.
Look for a pair of SixPacs, too.. I've seen them at 1200.00 and fresh built too. I picked up mine for 1300, just redone by Cary.. Copper foils, hexfred and new filter caps.. 20 more years..
The preamp is an option I had not considered but I can run the Peachtree in power amp mode as well as preamp. Maybe I would be better served looking into tube preamps. This just seems to make more sense the more I think about it.
Mechanic, see comments above: 40W monoblocks These are beautiful amps, need to find the age and provenance.
atmasphere9,468 posts 05-25-2021 1:24pm@johnfritter If you get a tube amp use the 4 ohm taps for you connection to the speakers. Your speakers are not particularly tube-friendly due to the low impedances in the bass region (3.1 ohms). If you like what you hear, consider a speaker that is higher impedance and otherwise easier to drive- that is where tubes can really show off what they do.
When I decided to go the tube route I bought a Jolida Fusion 6802 from Underwood Hi-Fi when Walter was blowing then out at a $1000 under MSRP. I didn’t want to get in too deep and figured I couldn’t go wrong. I absolutely love it. It’s powering 87db bookshelf speakers nicely. My next tube piece will be a phono amp. I’ll then start chasing speakers. With all that said a Raven will be next integrated amp.
THIS is a good deal. Pay attention OP.. Very good start and to tell the truth end with.. Flexible well made amps.. A lot of wiggle room for sound change..
What would make the most difference for $1-1.5k? I have to think it would be a good tube preamp or a tube DAC. Quicksilver and other tube preamps are possibilities; or Orchid MHDT Dac; or others. The point is that you want the tubes early in the signal path, first. Later, you can get tube amps. But before then, DAC or preamp. Gotta make sure the preamp and Peachtree will play nice together.
For $1K to $1500 you can find a good used preamp. As stated, check the specs so the pre will mate with the Peachtree. Shouldn't be very difficult.
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