so many speakers, so few lives…ha
Bad recordings and high end audio
Hello. Have decided that the kids are out of the house and I can dedicate some space and money to my long ignored hobby. What is different now is there are so few audio stores. I firmly believe in listening to products so thus I start this great new chapter of my life. The first 2 stores I went to the people were very patient with me and I listened to a ton of combinations. They asked me did I want to hear anything else and I said yes, ummm,.. how about Led Zeppelin? I received the same response from both stores which was “all Led Zeppelin recordings are horrible” except for this one version of Led Zeppelin 2…blah blah. So I said what happens if I am at home and i have a desire to play Led Zeppelin or another perceived poor recording? They did not have an answer for me nor did they play Led Zeppelin lol . I ended up ordering a pair of Magnepan 3.7i’s from a different store. 13 weeks until I get them, ouch. I am going to guess that people do listen to poor recordings on great systems because you just want to hear a particular album, right? Or am I missing something? Just looking for a bit of insight. Yes, I know they want it to sound the best so I will buy it but is that the only motivation. Or maybe they hate Led Zeppelin, lol.
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We all have this same experience when we move up the food chain with our gear. You will play a recording that you have listened to and enjoyed for decades even your go to songs that just made your day. You will play on the reference system and ask what the heck is wrong this is not what I have heard all theses years. Reference systems will expose bad recording times 10. This does not mean you still can’t enjoy them but just know they will sound different. Then you will play a recording that you have heard in the past that you were just ok with, familiar with but not in your listening rotation that will blow your mind. If like me you will first enjoy the new music and then start questioning what have you been missing all these years. You will discover new music that will change your listening habits and replace the old goto’s. Still enjoy the not so good recordings but look forward to the new world you are entering. Always remember that in the end it is all about one thing the music. Enjoy the music and the journey. |
That is exactly right; case in point for me. Never really listened or cared much for Steely Dan. For decades,was just sort of ehh, catchy tune, whats next. But now..... holy crap, these recordings are unbelievable. love Steely Dan. Yes a great stystem will change your listening tastes. I have amongst others, a play list of female vocals and another of acoustic guitar stuff. Amazing. Would have never listened to any of it until upgraing 4 years ago |
@mikekollar, "That is exactly right; case in point for me. Never really listened or cared much for Steely Dan. For decades,was just sort of ehh, catchy tune, whats next. But now..... holy crap, these recordings are unbelievable. love Steely Dan. Yes a great stystem will change your listening tastes. I have amongst others, a play list of female vocals and another of acoustic guitar stuff. Amazing. Would have never listened to any of it until upgraing 4 years ago" Ok, we know Dan placed great emphasis on sound recording quality but your post, more than anything else, seems to highlight the dangers of listening to the system ahead of the music. Here’s hoping you don’t eventually end up with a music collection akin to what’s heard at most HiFi Shows. @tomic601,so many speakers, so few lives…ha There’s even a term for this now. With so much choice the modern consumer is often bewildered and ultimately defeated by ’decision fatigue’ into making a poor decision. In a similar way a chess master might spend ages deciding upon a move only to end up playing an otherwise obvious blunder. Factor in listening fatigue and you can appreciate just how hard life can become for the beleaguered 21st century audiophile as they vainly seek to disembark from the upgrade roundabout. |
I haven't really compared versions but when I listened through tidal and my system it sounded pretty good. that being said. you will enjoy your maggies. I had them and paired them with Pass Int-250 and added Rel subs. Sounded great. Can't remember what your budget is but you might also be able to find used. Happy listening! |
I am 61 so I am trying to not even start that round about. I plan on retiring soon and am guessing I will not have the funds for a ton of constant upgrades. I have a pretty wide range of music I listen to. Seems like I get on jags and will be stuck on genre for a while. I love female vocals. Acoustic instruments. Horns ect. I guess I was really surprised when I started and went to 2 shops in a row and when they ask me if there was anything else I wanted to hear, I thought for a second and went through the music files in my head. I came up with Led Zeppelin lol. When they told me no because there was only poor recording my thought was “ what happens if I want to listen to Led Zeppelin at home.” That took me so off guard so then I turned to this awesome forum for help, vent and guidance. I have gotten priceless insights from you and everyone here so much so that I am kind of glad I ran into back to back Led Zeppelin haters lol. Thats a joke I know it was more then Led Zeppelin 😀 wait or maybe not lol . |
@mapman Well i left out a few speakers including Theil, Apogee..yes i have hit the high life - grateful. I don’t own the MBL but back when i had the right size room for them, Ispent some serious time w them in a dedicated room. The system Wadia spinner DAC, CJ GAT preamp, Musical Fidelity AMS-100 amp, Kubala cables, Elrod power…. pretty fine sonics. As you knows big image but less resolution than a point source. No free lunch. |
Too much noise, but you're right to listen before you buy. In a former life I sold systems. I was once asked by an engineering student 'why does - jazz musician xyz - sound better on my TV than on my top-end system'? Because the source - live tape or feed - is better than your turntable. He went on to build a better turntable. If you enjoy music, you should consider prioritising the accessibility of the music when selecting a system. A good test is to play something which should be interesting, but you don't normally enjoy, and see if you can get it. Led Zeppelin maybe, I find jazz quite demanding. Afro-beat? Soul? Punk? Grunge? Hip hop? Try a range of music over the edge of your comfort zone. Rhythmically complex music tests the system. 'Noisy' complex music tests the system. The more that's going on at the same time, the harder it is to follow the contributions. IME musicians require less clues to follow the music. A good system provides those clues to those of us who're less familiar with the source material. See the comments on Steely Dan. As a number of people have alluded, eg copy tapes, the quality of the front end is critical. 'Garbage in, garbage out' if you prioritise let's call it transparency over tonal balance. Classical music lovers tend towards the latter, most others to the former. Maybe you can have both, but it'd be expensive. Regarding recording quality, I listened yesterday to an audience CD of Robert Plant, backed by Fairport Convention, loaned by a friend who saw it live. Sound quality is more than good enough to convey the extraordinary performances. And it's the same with most albums; if the system is good you will hear the performance despite any technical shortcomings. Which are rare in studio recordings. That's what I'd look for. If they can't demo a system on which you can understand Led Zeppelin, something isn't right. Move on. BTW some disks are popular for demoing systems because they always sound good... Fancy remastered albums can be very good, but not always. As a rule with analogue masters I prefer the earliest pressing from the country of the master recording. These can be noisy and have the usual dirty analogue issues but the music's good. This shouldn't matter with digital masters but I haven't compared. A lot of comments focus on the speakers, even more on the amplifiers, and many on setup cables etc. My advice would be to put a significant proportion of your investment into a good turntable. Arm and cartridge are secondary. It will deliver the clarity, timing and insight you seem to be looking for. Recommendations - you didn't ask but Vertere, any Roksan, or Rega, similar to Project. A lot of high-end audio is expensive in the sense of being highly-priced but not performing consistently well. These are good. A secondhand Roksan would be my choice for value for money, ideally a Xerxes 20-plus. Secondhand gear - why buy new? Particularly with solid state amps. Pass Labs are good. |
if pass labs is too much you might want to try Bryston or maybe Parasound. I have heard the maggies with Bryston amps and it was really good. Whatever you do make sure you get enough juice. I had a really nice classe integrated that with 150/225 watts was not enough for the maggies so I got the pass. Happy hunting! |
@daydream816 I have a pair of Maggie 20.7's which have slightly more bottom end compared to the 3.7i's. However I still find a sub is a nice addition, especially if you plan to listen to classic rock. The REL S/812 sub mates well with Maggie's. Most people may tell you that 2 subs would be better, but you can start with 1 and add another if you feel it's needed. |
OP, I like many people here believe in at least two systems. I like folk music. I have many cassette tapes of original recordings that are of poor quality. (Many of these tapes were recorded by old hippies who never even considered the historic value of said music. One set of tapes I retrieved from the top of a commercial stove!) Some of these tapes, which I've transferred to CDR sound better on my home theater set up than my main rig. Oh darn! More toys to buy! Have fun sir. Joe |
Just saying... Class D amplification needs lots of help to sound punchy, warm and musical in a mid price system. Done right it can make a great and reasonably priced combination with Maggies. I say they need a lot of help, though NAD seem to have got it right all by themselves recently. The kind of help I am referring to is reclocking and conditioning with a standalone clock or through good switches. These are increasingly well priced nowadays. Optical connector's should use the best quality sfp+'s (laser based, not LED) and glass fibre. If that is done right you are home free, even with mid level dacs. At very fair value compared to Analog. |
Bad in and Bad out, especially with your 3.7's. Maggie's are very revealing, and that's an understatement. I own a pair of 20.1's and a pair of Acoustat Spectra 33's. People are saying, just turn the volume up...lol just going to sound just as bad, but louder. Over the years I've learned what a good recording sounds like and have managed to seek out the good recordings from the artists I like. Sometimes I play bad recordings because I want to listen to a particular song. Worst thing is having a few friends over to hear your system and you're playing a crappy song, them telling you how you got duped by your audio dealer... BTW, what are you using to power those Maggie's? |
In my last message I asked what amps are you using, after further reading I see that you haven't selected one yet. I can't say this strongly enough. Ignore anyone telling you that 100 watts is enough. Maggie's are HUNGRY BEASTS..Will they sound OK with 100 watts, sure they will, but do you want them to sound Fantastic. You will need to put some juice into them . I power my Maggie's with a set of Classe CAM350's Monoblocks 700 watts per block going to each speaker. Those Maggie's suck every watt and ask for more..I mentioned in my other other post that I also have an Acoustat System. I run those with a pair of Acoustat TNT200's that were rebuilt and modified by a highly regarded engineer in the field (Roy Esposito). I originally purchased one amp which pumped out 325 watts per channel into 4 ohms. I had heard so much about the Acoustat panels, I was disappointed. I got a second amp, had it rebuilt and modified by Roy, now I'm running over 800 watts into each of the panels, what a difference Night/Sun difference. The dynamics you get with all that headroom is phenomenal, even at low volume. I know this is a long post, all this to say, you need to get a lot of power and amperage into those panels to do them justice... |
@cycles2 thank you for letting me know about the subs even with the 20s. As I figure this out I might need to add the subs later from a cost perspective. I initially was thinking about the 1.7s but once I heard the 3.7is I knew I wanted them lol. So I spent a bit more on the speakers now I am reworking my budget , turning in all my cans and bottles lol |
@gumbedamit i am still working on the amps to drive these things. I still have time as i was told 13 weeks for the maggies. Still have 9-10 weeks left. Looking at all options. Its been a challenge. Any one have an opinion about the Cary SS amp? Did not know they had one but received an email about Labor day sale. |
The best dealers are the ones who can get pretty much anything. They may lean to the more expensive items since they make a % of the sale. But they can lay out all the options. As far as MC goes, that's fine for him. I prefer to buy from someone I can see that has products that are made in some decent quantity by reputable companies. Although I've bought from several dealers since some of my purchases have been below the minimum level of the guy who can get anything, I still bounce things off of him and he has never steered me wrong (and he doesn't hang up on me). He's kind of blunt, not warm and fuzzy. Some people like to be schmoozed. I'm a Joe Friday kind of guy...."just the facts ma'am". As far as record quality goes, some things just were not recorded that well (Bob Marley - Legend). If I like the music, I still listen to it, but the average quality may influence the frequency of how often that happens. Similarly, if it is something I like that sounds great, it spins more often. I definitely would not buy something just because it sounds good or was recorded well. If I don't like it, I don't like it. I am not trying to impress anyone in demoing my system. It's about the music, and trying to get it to be reproduced as perfectly as recorded/intended. |
Off topic but man, If you're going to listen Led Z, or any other rock/heavy rock music, then JBL is the ticket. All those live concerts I saw were only played with JBL equipment. Now, they're not the same like the ones for home music listening, but still JBL for hard rock at a decent price. Surely, they're not Bowers & Wilkins, but for the price difference, I love the sound coming out of my L980s, helped by two subs in my set up. |
OP I am 69. When I was about your age I upgraded my system. In part because it was time and I didn’t think I would be able to afford upgrades in retirement. I was really happy that I did because I immediately began enjoying my system at a much higher level than ever before. Then I retired and after a couple years I upgraded my headphone system to 300b tubes and realized my main system was much too sterile. Also, in the mean time I had been managing my money in retirement and realized I could afford to upgrade. I doubled the investment in my system. Wow, I can’t tell you how gratifying the jump in performance has been. Also, its value has now grown to investment level. My audio guy is instructed if I die soon to sell it all, take a cut, and give the rest to my partner… which should be a substantial amount of money. At some point your system is actually worth money and you can enjoy your investment. |
The old demos I listen too, are simply hideous, my system is very revealing, and reveals every flaw, 90% of the old demos I listen to are just scum and sound like a band playing in a garbage can! Some older metal bands sound amazing and sublime! The recording is the answer! many of my old releases sound great! Tank, Motörhead, Raven, Samson, Y&T, onslaught, sodom, venom (hahahah usually always bad) So what, if it’s music you love, then listen!! I have a box of old demo tapes I traded with several buddies from the U.K., including Shane Embry from Napalm death, whom I met through trading addresses from metal maniacs, metal edge, and hit parader magazines in the 80’s and 90’s! I still play them, and enjoy them, if it sounds poor, so what, listen to what u love!! Many of my old cd recordings sound poor, even my first Humble Pie album, has poor sound,....so what. Listen to what you like, and enjoy it! I listen to accept through ZZ Top,....metal, rock, tons of blues, just enjoy the music my friend! I listen to BATHORY, which is a poor and seriously bad recording, sounds like Quorthon playing through a garbage can, and also , I listen to many Japanese SHM CDs, and blue spec -2 CDs, which sound superb! Gary Moore, numerous shm CDs in metal titles. Just listen and enjoy what you love! 90% of music is recording dependent, I have records and CDs from the first ones made on the mid 80’s to newer , and many old records, to (only a few) of the 2010 or newer pressed records, which most sound like tripe garbage! I don’t know, I drop the needle, and press play on my CD player to so many bands, , many sound like horse apples, many sound superb and more or less, poor, good, great, superb, etc etc. long winded post I know,..l.l.just listen to your music, and don’t worry about being some silly audiophile with the useless words, ....airy, air around instruments, 3D etc,.....whatever,”! Drop the needle on an LP, PRESS play on a cd, or press play on a cassette recorded to cd. Just enjoy. I have so many metal recordings on tape to cd, LP to cd, etc,.. enjoy the music, that is all!! Currently, I’m listening to a Destruction 7” of whiplash (metallisnatch) cover. I recorded it to my. Hard drive , and cleaned it, recorded it to a taiyo yuden cd, and even it sounds subpar, I love my music! Just listen to your tunes, and don’t listen to what others think!! 🍻🇺🇸🍺 |
After purchasing a new component, I employ what I call the “crap” test as seen in the following post on another forum. https://db.audioasylum.com/mhtml/m.html?forum=amp&n=103667&highlight=Crap+test+DeeCee&r=... The follow up thread comments were also interesting, although they focused mainly on my then new passive line controller (as opposed to the system as a whole). |
I love the Japanese shm-cd and the spec-II(2) cds they seem to have a warmer sound, or tone, as compared to reg editions. I have the original epic Boston self titled cd, and the Boston Shm-cd. the shm-cd is so much more relaxed, extracts better resolution, the guitar and vocals are so warm, and deeper in tone, it just envelopes me more, Brad Delp’s vocals are so flawless, he just ..... lone of the many CDs to make the hair stand up on my arms and neck. I love the Japanese CDs, they take pride in their recordings! Minus those scorpions CDs from a few years ago, which the treble is so high it hurts. Now a days, that I can afford them, and such, I try to buy the Japanese CDs ONLY if they have the extra songs, which I missed for the past 30 years. Waiting for the Gary Moore Spec II CD “how blue can you get?” I have a rip from a cousin, but, I will compare the 2, I’m sure the Japanese cd will be far superior than the cheap usa/uk cd version also, for the collector metalheads,...... Sodom genesis cd is being re-released on shm-cd format. With additional tracks from the bombenhagel Ep (3 songs)% I bought the original version, which pisses me off, that a couple months after the initial release, they release another version w bonus songs! Just release 1 version! this gets me po’d as a huge Sodom fan and collector. Met Sodom at Milwaukee metal fest years ago,.through Sabi Sabev, he’s a good guy, bought ton rare stuff from him. |
@arcticdeth, "I have a box of old demo tapes I traded with several buddies from the U.K., including Shane Embry from Napalm death, whom I met through trading addresses from metal maniacs, metal edge, and hit parader magazines in the 80’s and 90’s!" My brother also met Shane Embury back in the late 80s. Shane even signed a £10 note for him which he kept taped above his bed. After Napalm Death folded my brother then followed Carcass for a while. Those were days when you could stand and chat afterwards with the likes of Shane Embury and Bill Steer. I always mean to ask my brother for the name of that LP (Tankard?) he used to play back in the day. It was one of the very best recordings I've ever heard - tons of dynamic range and great clarity throughout. |
I have to agree, I am also a Magnepan owner and Zep recordings are pretty poor. I have ( Don't tell anyone) a small Schitt Audio EQ for recordings that are FUBAR . The unit is a little "transistor-y" sounding BUT it makes poor recordings listenable. You can get them used for 100 bucks or so.... Enjoy |
I’m glad this thread moved to the SQ on good versus bad pressing and CD’s and got off the skills of Jimmy Page as a producer. Jimmy Page produced Led Zeppelin exactly how he and the band wanted Led Zeppelin to sound. If they wanted bottom end boomy bass driven music it would have been there. I prefer to hear the bass notes being played by John Paul Jones. I am lucky to have very early and very good SQ pressing of the first five albums. And yes there are songs on any album that I would choose to audition a system and there are songs that I definitely would not choose. Dyer Maker from Houses of the Holy - definitely not! No Quarter from Houses of the Holy - absolutely yes! Whole Lotta Love and The Lemon Song from II - absolutely yes! Although there is not much on Led Zeppelin II that I would not choose! |
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**** Good recordings will sound better and poor recordings will sound a lot better than they would on a bad system. **** noromance is exactly right. The comment is particularly true if one considers that the sound of what is a “poor” recording to a listener with audiophile sensibilities or aspirations may be exactly what the artist intended. This goes to one MC’s comments. The artist and/or producer may have a certain sonic aesthetic in mind that he/she feels does service to the music and this aesthetic may be a far cry from the pristine type of sound that we crave as audiophiles. This is particularly true of R&R recordings. Sometimes imperfection and grunge in the sound is exactly what the doctor ordered…music wise. On a related note: ”What do you use to demo equipment, or when attending an audio show?” is a common question. I always make a point to use or bring along recordings of kick as& music that does NOT have “exceptional” audiophile sound. If the gear let’s me hear more of the musical interplay in those recordings without what can become the “distraction” of all the typical audiophillic checking points, then I know I’m on the right track. To the OP: You write “I have a turntable”. Keep in mind that one of the truest of all audiophile truisms is “garbage in, garbage out”. Any musical information or aesthetic choice that is lost at the source cannot be recovered no matter how good the upstream components. One does not necessarily have to spend the most on the turntable, but only if the turntable/arm/cartridge setup is of, at least, “good” quality can one benefit from exceptional speakers and electronics. If that is not the case, then the exceptional electronics and speakers will only better reveal the problems with the turntable. Good luck. |
Frogman: I respectfully disagree with your statement of a bad recordings sounding better on a good system vs, a bad system. Good/Great systems reveal just how poorly a a recording was created or how well. Garbage In. Garbage out. Lesser systems don't have the resolving power, thus colorizing the noise making it sound better... |
No problem with disagreement. However, I suppose it depends on what one considers “better” and what one’s priorities are. If, for a given listener, “better” means being able to hear more of how the recording was mic’ed, mixed, musical interplay among the musicians, and other choices (good or bad) that the artist and producers made, then a better system will ALWAYS, make a recording better. If by “worse” one means poor imaging, uneven tonal balance, sibilance, etc; IOW, the ear candy part of the listening experience, then, sure, that type of sound can be perceived as worse. |
@gumbedamit, "Frogman: I respectfully disagree with your statement of a bad recordings sounding better on a good system vs, a bad system. Good/Great systems reveal just how poorly a a recording was created or how well. Garbage In. Garbage out. Lesser systems don’t have the resolving power, thus colorizing the noise making it sound better..." Agreed. The 1950s/60s systems that that those beloved Sinatra, Cole, Elvis, Buddy Holly, Beatles etc records were cut for are quite different to the playback systems used today. Dynamics, tonality and punch seemed to matter much more back then than the obsessive pursuit of increasing amounts of resolution today. Studio monitors were quite different back then too. |
@gumbedamit, I used to believe this. It certainly seemed to make sense. For a very long time, quite a few years I think, this idea held up pretty good. The last couple years now it has become increasingly obvious this is bunk. What happens instead is sometimes things we think are improvements really are not that well balanced. When we change something and some recordings sound better while others do not we blame the "bad" recordings. When in fact what really happened is we made an unbalanced "improvement". I have written about this before. I have plenty of records I was sure were dull dead, lifeless, insipid poorly done recordings. All the Linda Ronstadt recordings with Nelson Riddle, her voice was good and that was about it. Some cuts like Round Midnight just laid there. When I play them now it is stunning how full of life they are. Round Midnight is tense with drama. Instruments were sort of buried in the mix to the point I was sure this congealed sort of sound had to be endemic to the recording. Now every thread shines and sparkles. The sax on some of them is absolutely soaring! But at the same time there are recordings I was sure were "hot" or hyper detailed with a hard edge or glare that was fatiguing, and again I was sure these were part and parcel of the recording. Wrong. Now they sound terrific, no glare, no fatigue. It wasn’t the recording after all. Jim James’ guitar solo on Kansas City is so distorted it was hard at first to make out the notes. Now I play it and wonder how it was it ever sounded so hopelessly distorted. Has to be real genuine balanced improvements are now letting me hear both the distortion and the fundamental tone just as the artist intended. Now at this point I will ask those who think "revealing" means revealing flaws to stop and think about this. These two outcomes would seem to be mutually exclusive, would they not? If the system "makes" the damp dull recording sound more dynamic and detailed, then surely it would also make the dynamic sparkly recording too hot? But yet it does not. Or if it makes the hot record sound smoother then surely it would make the dull one even duller. Would it not? It would. But yet it does not. Therefore the premise is false. The only way this makes sense is the definition of what is "good" or "better" in a system is wrong. A truly good system does not "make" the recording anything. In other words the flaws you are hearing are maybe not so much in the recording as you think. |