While I have no doubt that expectation bias can often be of significance when it comes to both wine and audio, did anyone notice the markings on the vertical axis of the graph shown at the link Geoff provided in the OP? That axis representing "signal change in mOFC," which was claimed to correspond to activity in the brain's pleasure center.
The biggest difference in "signal change in mOFC" between the wine as believed to cost $10 and the same wine as believed to cost $90, which occurred about 12 seconds after tasting was begun, amounted to about 0.6%. Doesn't sound like much of a difference to me.
Also, I note that even when the wine was believed to cost $90 the pleasure increase went to zero only 19 seconds after tasting was begun. I'd therefore have to think that the wine simply wasn't very good. I wonder what the results might have been if they had used a 1982 Chateau Mouton Rothschild instead :-)
Concerning some of the broader audio-related issues that have been discussed in this thread, it seems to me to be self-evident that the correlation between performance and price generally tends to lie somewhere in the middle ground between 0 (no correlation) and 1 (perfect correlation). And I wouldn't be surprised if on occasion expectation bias were to assume as much significance as differences in personal preference.
The retail cost of a bottle of wine is closely tied to the market value of real estate where the wine is produced. Expensive vineyards produce expensive wines.
"07-02-15: Nonoise Zd542, No, I missed that one. The only upside would be to return the unit for a refund and keep the wine. Of the two, at least one would satisfy."
07-03-15: Onhwy61 The retail cost of a bottle of wine is closely tied to the market value of real estate where the wine is produced. Expensive vineyards produce expensive wines.
I'd expect the converse to often be true as well. A property which produces higher quality and thus often more expensive wine, due in part to its soil characteristics and the local climate, will as a result have greater value as real estate.
the only thing wine and audio have in common aside from the subjective nature of both is to the un initiatied it all tastes/sounds more similar than different. But once one develops their palate, and tastes the nectar there is no going back
I've been told that the vineyards keep the trunk and roots of the older vines and graft the same or even different varietals atop. Some of these older trunks can be quite massive and go deep into the soil. So as Al pointed out, the soil characteristics, climate, and the intact delivery system all add up to an almost guaranteed return on investment. Quality can almost be taken for granted.
I don't know if it so much bad news, as a cautionary tale. We always have to ask where the value is and what are we really looking to get out of this thing. T'was the low spark of high-heeled boys
I hadn't revisited this thread since I posted last June, and I have to apologize for the punctuation issues in that post. I must have been drinking wine.
Hey, if you enjoy drinking a $90 bottle of wine more than a $10 bottle, who am I to criticize you?
I worked as a salesman at a high-end audio shop in DC, one of the early adopters of an "electronic A-B" system, that allowed the customer to compare amps, pre-amps, sources and speakers. I setup a custom with a McIntosh MC2200 solid state and a high-end tube amp, handed him the "clicker" and let him relax and compare the amps. He told me that he thought the tube amp sounded smoother, ordered it from me. Later the repair tech asked me if I knew that there was something wrong with the "electronic AB" system, some problem with the connection to the tube amp prevented it from being connected, so the customer was actually listening to the MC2200 the whole time!
Absolutely true that some people are swayed by the higher cost of two items, sometimes they are right ...usually it does't matter as long as they believe it. In some cases, it is also fraud.
It is also absolutely true that two capacitors, or resistors can perform the same function yet sound remarkably different in the right application. Buyer beware. Nothing new here, why the uproar? ...Don't trust your own senses? Can't be confident in what you experience and need validation in the form of a higher price tag? I have run into everything from the fraudulent to the divine in some things that others had entirely different responses to. I am happy with my personal results and don;t need you to tell me I "made the right choice" because I bought the same device (or wine) you think is the best.
By the way, I am an accomplished wine drinker (aka, high-end wino). I have shared incredible wines at ALL price points, sometimes the price is a function of a wine with a track record that goes back hundreds of years. Sometimes it's a function of a ridiculous winery visitor tasting room that impresses the money out of the gullible. Yes, it's a great wine but there is another one that is in the same league but unknown and costs almost nothing.
Expectation bias is actually a quite different phenomenon from placebo effect. Both are frequently used as "the real reason" why audiophiles hear certain hard to swallow tweaks or expensive cables.
No snark intended. Funds that would yield better results on other components end up going into expensive cables to compensate weaknesses in the system.
noromance 383 posts 10-14-2016 11:22am No snark intended. Funds that would yield better results on other components end up going into expensive cables to compensate weaknesses in the system.
Uh, pretty sure you’re supposed to spend the excess funds on tweaks, not other component or cables.
Funds that would yield better results on other components end up going into expensive cables to compensate weaknesses in the system.
Gotta agree with noromance, unless one has no budget and then one can have better components, expensive cables and also drink better tasting $90 wine.
BTW Geoff, would you say the propensity to enjoy wine costing $90 over the same wine costing $10 is more closely related to expectation bias or placebo effect? If the wine is served by a
sommelier, then I vote placebo effect since the two wines would have no attributes that would cause the drinker to find one better than the other, except for their belief that more expensive wine must taste better. OTOH, if the taster themselves chose the $90 wine based on their own research this would result in an expectation bias where the researcher believes their tasting supports their research.
Thanks for this discussion that reminds me the only path between two points is not a straight line....and not to buy expensive cables.
"Well, yeah...it seems to get done frequently. Too much, I think. The soil's starting to thin out, almost to bedrock."
"Let's do it again. Looks like crap, it needs to get smoothed out."
"But...that just makes it worse..."
"You telling me I'm wrong?"
A simple analogy...there is nothing about the initial question that will ever have a resolution. There has been, is, and will ever be the discussion of it and the difference of opinions inherent to it.
...and I've Got to stop looking at these threads....;)
oregonpapa 1,205 posts 10-15-2016 1:23am I’ve always liked this quote:
"The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten."
it would be nice if there was a Standard of Quality in the industry. That way there would be some way to distinguish between Poor Quality and Excellent Quality. There is no standard for dynamic range. There is no standard for polarity. There is no standard for transparency. There is no standard for anything. As it stands I’m afraid audiophiles don’t really know what the heck they’re even listening to.
The really bad news for audiophiles is the disreputable pseudo-techno-babble spouted by people who don't know the first thing about electronics or bio-acoustics, many of whom use that to bill their customers of thousands of dollars.
If you disagree, then I have a basilar membrane based bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you.
"The really bad news for audiophiles is the disreputable pseudo-techno-babble spouted by people who don't know the first thing about electronics or bio-acoustics, many of whom use that to bill their customers of thousands of dollars.
If you disagree, then I have a basilar membrane based bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you."
"
Nor is there a standard for rating the beauty of a flower, the sensation of an embrace, or the satisfaction of a job well done. You just know it..."
Exactly, Dave ... and very well put.
In addition to loving quality audio to play my music collection on, I also have a taste for quality beer, bourbon and scotch. I don't know the first thing about brewing beer, but I can tell the difference between the swill known as "Bud Lite" and a quality craft beer.
Along those same lines, there is coffee. We have the swill produced by Folgers and served at your local Starbucks, and then there are those of us who have learned to home-roast our own coffee.
We order green coffee beans over the Internet and roast them in our own home roasters. The beans come from small, family owned organic farms from all of the coffee producing regions on the planet. To my taste, the Central American coffees are the cat's meow; Guatemalan coffees being my favorite.
If you want to find out what coffee SHOULD taste like, you can find out everything you need to know by going to this site:
I once bought my wife some of that "monkey poop" coffee for a Christmas stocking stuffer. It was fantastic, except I had to wait until we drank it all to tell her (and my daughters) of its origin. Back to Starbucks after that. lol
We are all subject to expectations and preconceptions. However I find a reasonable way to tell. If I think a new something is simply good (better than the old), or bad (worse) - that's when I have to wait. I have to listen more, get used to it, and recognize the plusses and the minuses. Only after that, can I judge.
- food tastes are influenced by the cutlery used, and the effects of the frequencies in music on enhancing different tastes. Taking a swing at the audiophile market would be a public service.
Anybody want to ship him some DACs at wildly different price points?
I have some HiFi Tuning fuses zapped by the Tesla coil at SR. About the same as the SR20 to my ears.Try the Black fuse if you ever decide to give SR another shot. It may change your mind.
I spoke to Ted about the Quantum wineglass. No plans there but currently prototyping a Graphene UEF Brandy Sifter with HFT tuning enhancement. Said to turn ordinary distilled wine into casket-aged connoisseur Brandy rich in palettial overtones with holographic colouring and a wine-cellar noise floor. lol
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