Aurender Model Choices

I've owned two aurenders.  I think they're great. Build quality, features, support, reliability....all top notch.  I now use an Innous pulsar.  Not as feature rich (USB only), but. the sense app is way better than aurender conductor (IMO), it also sounds better in my system.  I don't think you can go wrong with any aurender, but it's not the only game in town, lots of good streamers out there now. Make sure you're OK with the conductor app before you commit to an aurender, Until they add roon, if they do, it's the only way to access your music.

@jfrmusic, Please remember that The next MSB Premier DAC upgrade requires a $14,500 expenditure, another box, more cables, etc. Of course, I understand that technology dictates the upgrade requirements to achieve the next level of sound quality and the associated price. My Bricasti M21 DAC upgrade was for a new board. My Cost was $1,000 and the sound quality was ‘substantially’ improved. This upgrade makes sense and is an example of Bricasti supporting its customers purchase and investment.

I know MSB Technology is about innovation, advanced design, state of the art products, etc. The Director upgrade price for their more expensive MSB DAC models are around $24,500.

@audphile1 Thanks for the warning

@dbt Thanks for all the MSB info. MSB may be too much for me at this point.

@audphile1 Bingo! 😆 This hifi game is serious business when it should be a simple hoppy for fun!

@jfrmusic Keep in mind the MSB DACs do not come equipped with a USB input.  MSB is a modular DAC and they chose not to include the USB module as many MSB owners prefer the AES input.  I bought the MSB Quadrate USB module directly from MSB to demo and the AES outperformed the USB module, given the (3) different USB cables I tried with it.  It’s hard to try all the different variations of cables and options unless you have a dealer that’s going to let you borrow it, you own it or you’re willing to buy it with an option to return. They do offer an MSB ProISL interface which works in conjunction with their MSB Pro USB input.  That’s supposed to be superior to the standard Quadrate USB input that I ended up returning to MSB.  I listen to 90% traditional jazz and the AES input, plus the Acoustic Zen Absolute AES cable, was simply dead silent and produced the most realistic bass and acoustic instrument presentation I have heard in my system.  I spent days and hours critically listening to the same tunes while switching back in forth inputs and cables.  I conducted blind tests with my brother who could care less about all this hifi stuff and he clearly heard the difference.  He was surprised how a single cable was producing a different sound.  The dealer will explain the MSB DAC features and options to you.

Lastly, I paid way less than what the Discrete DAC costs brand new.  Otherwise, I probably wouldn’t have bought it when I did.

@jfrmusic that’s exactly the situation @dbt is warning you about….

Aurender + MSB Discrete = something you’ll hear that you won’t be able to unhear

good luck dude!

😂

@dbt 

I’d forgotten about the MSB Discrete. I will check it out. The dealer near me where I will go to audition the Aurender also carries MSB. Will give it a listen. 

@jfrmusic No problem!

If I had to choose one of those DACs you mentioned without hearing them, I’d probably get the Mola Mola.  I bought the MSB Discrete because it’s been my first choice of upgrade without hearing it in “my” system and I have no regrets.  I had my eye on the T+A DAC200 as well.  That might be worth considering too.  DCS has a phenomenal reputation, but I didn’t include it in my list of DACs to pursue.

Godspeed to you and keep us posted!

@dbt 

Thanks again for your thoughtful response. It’s always a challenge when considering a component upgrade that is basically fine but may now be surpassed by newer technology. The May might be a nice move from my DAC3 as would the Tambaqui or dCS Lina. But those last two are more than twice the price of the May. 
 

Too many choices and not many to actually compare side by side. 

@jfrmusic Thanks for the gear compliment!

My experience with Benchmark vs. Holo Audio is a good question.  The Benchmark is excellent for the money, but the Holo Audio was smoother, bigger soundstage, better bass, mids, and just produced a better analogue sound to me.  Again, not a night and day difference, but a noticeable difference.  The Holo Audio recommended break time is about 400-500 hours.  It sounded much better once I had it broken in.
 

I have learned that the room is the biggest component in the system and it can make or break your system.  My comparisons have been in the same room, so that eliminates excuses for the DACs.  However, variables, variables, variables.  By that I mean, the Holo Audio DAC may sound better with the Holo Audio Serene preamp vs. your Benchmark preamp, different digital cable offerings, etc?  If you plan to keep your Benchmark DAC, you’ll be able to compare both DACs with it, but you won’t get to hear the same brand pairing with the Holo Audio unless you’re able to demo the Serene preamp in the chain.
 

I hope that helps.

@dbt  I’m with you on that 100%. 

@audphile1 Thank you!

I have a buddy in my audiophile circle that has the N20 and an upper tier MSB DAC, using the AES and clock connection, and he loves the combination.  I haven’t heard it because we don’t live in the same area.  The price difference between the Aurender N20 and LUMIN U2 is a lot and I’d have to decide if the financial value of the “possibly” better sound quality of the N20 is worth it to me.  That’s what we all have to consider in this hifi game, how much are you willing to pay for a particular sound quality that you love?  The problem is, when we hear it, we cannot unhear it, so we have to decide.  The sound quality chase has to stop somewhere, so I have found contentment in my system.  Stay away from constant hifi reviews if you want to stop the madness because thats what sparks the “how would that sound in my system” mentality!  Lol….

Enjoy the tunes is all I can say!!

@dbt 

You have a wonderful system that I'm sure sounds fantastic. You mentioned you transitioned from the Benchmark DAC3 to the HOLO Audio Spring KTE DAC. I'd be interested in more of your thoughts on that move. Once I get the Aurender I plan to upgrade my DAC3 which I've had for the past 7 years. It is a very good DAC but I think DAC technology has improved especially with the R2R Ladder non Chip based DACs. So at the momentum the Holo Audio May KTE looks very appealing especially at its price point. Any impressions on how the Spring 3 KTE bettered the Benchmark DAC3 would be enlightening.

@dbt thank you! Yes the M3 is a really nice DAC!

Your setup is very nice as well! Speaking of N20…I’ve not heard it but the OXCO clock in it should be an improvement over the Lumin U2. Add to that the much beefier power supply and I think it will sing with your MSB DAC. 

I played around with sub-$1000 streamers for quite a while when getting back into audio and based on glowing recommendations I found a used Aurender N200 on TMR for $3000.  My speakers and DAC are not super-high quality but I was blown away by the BIG improvement when I plugged in the N200.  Very cost effective improvement, especially used.

@jfrmusic Of course you know this but it’s worth repeating.  SQ is ONLY in the ear of the beholder.  Sound quality has no relationship to what someone paid for their equipment. I’m often amazed how folks automatically link sales price as THE metric of system performance. 
 

Your experience, in your room is all that matters. If your toe taps along with Hiromi as your system is now, I say enjoy the music. Quality of recording x room acoustics x your ear-brain interface are the only relevant metrics. Making your system sound different doesn’t mean it’s better…unless you perceive it as such. 

@audphile1 You have a really nice setup and I have read good things about Bricasti!

@jfrmusic I am a big fan of Benchmark because the DAC1 USB was the first external DAC I purchased in about 2008/09 and I owned the DAC3L as well! Years later, I bought a Holo Audio Spring 2 KTE and later, the Spring 3 KTE DAC. I can’t say it was a night and day improvement, but it was much better. However, when I recently purchased a used MSB Discrete DAC w/two power supplies, it was a big improvement over all the DACs mentioned above. I have a LUMIN U2 streamer connected to my MSB with an Acoustic Zen Absolute 110 AES cable and it smokes! I auditioned about (5) different AES cables from The Cable Co. and (3) different USB cables and one Pangea “toslink” cable which was SHOCKINGLY good! The Acoustic Zen Absolute 110 AES cable was the king! I consider my speakers, (Wilson Audio Sabrina X), the quarterback of my system and I built the team of gear around them. This approach has been a success story for me!

I say all this to say, I am a fan of the AES connection and I hear that the Aurender N20 is the ticket if used with the AES and “clock” connection, as others have already mentioned. I would love to try the N20 in my system, but I’m holding tight for now. I think the Aurender streamer will be an improvement for you regardless of which one you choose, but I agree the N20 may be overkill in your system. Nothing beats a failure but a try, so if you were able to demo the N200 and N20, that should help you make a decision and be able to sleep at night!

Keep us posted!

Awesome! I’m looking forward to your thoughts. Just make sure that you give each streamer and yourself at least a day, preferably more, before switching out for another unit. A quick A/B is never a good way to compare things. Allocate some alone time for this late in the evening when it’s quiet. That’s what I normally do when I compare components or cables. 

@audphile1 

Thanks again. In few weeks I will have chance to audition the N100 and N200. 

@jfrmusic 

This topic has received quite alot of attention on Audiogon - and other forums - recently.  There are definitely opposing views on this, so I would encourage you to do what you’re doing; keep an open mind and sort thru the issues in a systematic way.  One of the better recent threads on this forum for highlighting the disparate perspectives in a reasonably thorough way is at the link below:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/what-makes-one-music-server-sound-better-than-another

Good luck!

So…I’ve used several streamers with Benchmark but not the n200 as I just recently got it.
I could hear the difference in sound switching out power cords, Ethernet cables and adding Eno Ethernet filter as well as fiber optic conversion and network switch on the streamer. If these changes caused differences in sound, why would different streamers not sound different? I heard a difference between coax and usb and difference between different usb cables with Benchmark. 
 

Keep in mind, some audiophiles with Benchmark DAC3 are totally content and have no plans to upgrade anything. It plays music just fine with rPi and they’re satisfied. They will likely have and be happy with Mogami cables and a stock power cord. 
 

When I called Benchmark with a question on setting gain for XLR outs, the very nice gentleman whose name escapes me at the moment asked me what preamp I was using. I said Pass XP12 (at the time). He recommended that the DAC3 HGC direct into amp will sound better than XP12 as the Pass preamps color the sound. I wasn’t going to argue that point as I have tried it and it didn’t come close to the way XP-12 lays things out in the soundstage. They also recommend their cables and say you don’t need anything better. 

So my recommendation to you would be not to listen to anyone including me 😂

buy the N200 either used or new with a generous trial period to spend enough time with it to make a decision in your own system. Get another streamer as well, cheaper than the N200…may be the lower line Eversolo or something. WiiM Pro Plus or Lumin U2 Mini. Something to compare it too.
Do a shootout. If the N200 doesn’t sound like it’s worth the dough, send it back. keep the cheaper streamer. 
 

@audphile1 

After reading that thread where Benchmark and some users claim that the streamer you buy is irrelevant as the DAC3 will eliminate all noise and they will all sound the same. You I believe had the DAC3 with both Lumin and Aurender streamers. So what’s your take?

Thanks! Yeah the X260.8 monos are my current amps. 

Also how did you get those heavy amps home and into you room?

Adrenaline! 

Just kidding. My son was around and helped me. 

@audphile1 

Finally connected using my iPad. iPhone no go.  Strange. 
 

You have certainly had quite an iteration of equipment. Very nice system. Are the PASS amps still there. Also how did you get those heavy amps home and into you room?

I tried Conductor v3 and yes it’s not the best. But I can tell you the latest v4 is really nice. Still not on par with Roon but light years better than Lumin app and comparable to Auralic LDS. 

I found the Aurender A10 i owned to be over rated at best in my system. The one thing I could not get past was the Aurender App its just not up to the standards i expected for the money spent, its rather a let down to just about every other app out there. I used the A10 as a streamer only as the internal DAC was mediocre at best. Supper well made though i'll given them that. 

I believe now after many streamers the DAC and its ability to filter out the nasties is much more important then a multi Kilo$ Streamers that are out there. I found after 4 streamers now the interface is supper important for long term enjoyability.

I also do not find that significant of a difference with these supper expansive streamers. And yes my system is resolving enough to hear the differences, Maybe due to my Chord Dave DAC just keeping the crap out of the signal but I can't hear significant differences that I would say are night and day and/or worth the big $ some of these streamers demand.   

Here’s another thread, this one on Roon Labs, where several Benchmark DAC owners swear by their Raspberry Pi’s - one discusses his comparison to an Aurender unit:

that’s exactly right! You end up listening too hard for differences and it takes a toll on you. The enjoyment of music moves to background.
 

When your digital reaches certain level what I’ve noticed is vinyl becomes a throwback. It’s like shaving with a straight razor, soap and badger brush once in a while…amazing experience but it isn’t an everyday day kind of thing. 

@audphile1

Yup, been there done that! When I had both setup, I was constantly thinking about making it better and that took a big bite off enjoying music. So I sold off my SME15AV TT, Hana Umami Red and EAT phono to focus on digital. And I’m kinda glad that I did..my digital is now where I envisioned 😊

PS: I am still hanging on to my modest but exemplary pressings of about 80 vinyls. I still buy one off pressings. 

@lalitk thank you! Had to temporarily give up vinyl but going to probably get back into it at some point. Just focusing on digital front end at the moment. Still have my record collection and that’s not going anywhere.

And yes you’re right about the investment in the vinyl front end.
It was an arms race in my system with constant upgrades to both and it kind of ended up being neither here nor there. I think my future vinyl setup will be a separate system and not mixed into the main rig…we’ll see….

I am able to look up @audphile1 fabulous system! Didn’t know you also spin vinyl😊 I have been contemplating getting back into Vinyl…it would be a considerable investment to surpass my digital…lol!

@jfrmusic strange…works fine for me. 

Ran across this thread on another forum.  Another Benchmark DAC owner reached out to Benchmark to ask about streamers.  Interesting response:

https://www.audioaficionado.org/showthread.php?t=52456

Not really a surprise though.  This is the same company that is highly critical of high priced cables…

@audphile1 

Sorry. Must be doing something wrong. 
I get an err page when I click on System Details. 

Just click on my id then click details. You’ll see the system.

@audphile1 

I can understand. The Pass is a great PreAmp. 
BTW. Your link doesn’t  work. 

No. I did try though and it’s really good. I just like the Pass XP-22 preamp better.

here’s a link to my system page….

https://www.audiogon.com/systems/7895

@audphile1 

Oh forgot to ask. Do you use it as your PreAmp?

@audphile1 

Thanks again. I’ve wondered what a reasonable upgrade path might be if in the future I want a better DAC. Will keep the Bricasti in mind. 

One more thing to add…I think the very resolving, dynamic but sweet/tube like sounding N200 with the right digital cable and power cord will greatly complement the DAC3. That’s why I stated it will be a good match. 

I found the Benchmark a bit too matter of fact and cool sounding for my taste. While it’s a significant step in the right direction by the designers at Benchmark compared to the DAC 1 that I used to have years ago, it still retains that studio monitoring tool vibe. 
When I picked up the M3 I had A/B’d the two DACs.
The Bricasti sounds more natural and engaging in my system, to me. There’s an improvement across the board over the Benchmark DAC starting with its black background, better bass, clearer mids and more delicate highs to the soundstage. The M3 better matches the rest of my system as well. It also has a killer volume control if it needs to be used as a makeshift preamp, is better built, has linear power supply with digital and analog sections isolated, two toroidal transformers, lower noise floor and better details. It has multiple filters and clock settings that let you dial it in to best fit your system. Display that tells you the format/bitrate (auto shutoff) vs the tiny lights on DAC3. This isn’t a benchmark beat down. The Benchmark DAC 3 is an excellent DAC in its price category. I’m not downplaying its capabilities by any means. 

@auphile1

Curious. Why did you switch from Benchmark DAC3 to Bricasti?

Just a point to keep in mind for anyone considering the idea of using a Mac running Audirvana if you have a significant collection of DSD files. Macs will only play DSD via DoP (DSD over PCM, which transmits DSD data in PCM frames) since they don’t support native DSD playback. This is then limited by the DAC and its support of DoP which many only do up to DSD64, some 128 and even fewer 256. Windows PCs can support native DSD with the ASIO driver, but of course they have other issues that would need to be considered.

@jfrmusic my current DAC is a Bricasti Designs M3. You can check out my system under my user ID, details.

I 100% agree you should try both coax and usb when you get your streamer.
I do remember preferring usb with DAC3 HGC but your ears be the judge.

One other cool thing in the N200 that I really appreciate is the Critical Listening Mode. It shuts off the display and non-essentials. There’s a small difference but it is there and you can hear the lowered noise floor. I usually don’t like keeping the displays on the DAC, streamer and preamp on anyway and this feature is perfect for me in every way.

@audphile1 

Thanks for doing the comparison. Can you tell me what DAC you are using?

I’m sure I’ll do the same comparison when I get my streamer. As I mentioned Benchmark recommended the SPIDF because of its patented “Jitterlock” feature on the DAC3 and said the SPDIF Coax would be better. So I will have to try both. 

Great thread here with input from a number of trusted sources that I "listened" to when going through my streamer selection process six months ago.  I decided on Aurender and was going to go with a new N150 but decided instead to search for  a gently used/ one owner N200. I had to be patient and diligent in my search and it took several months.  Worth the process, wait and search.  

@jfrmusic I have done the spdif to USB comparison with my N200. To answer your question, I prefer the USB interface. The coax was pretty good though but it sounded a bit too reserved and lacked in soundstage, dynamics and extension.
I used DH Labs D750 digital coax and the “stock” Aurender supplied USB cable.

Going from the stock Aurender USB cable to Audioquest Diamond further widens the gap.

However, just to be clear, the results aren’t guaranteed to be consistent with every DAC.
When it comes to usb interface, the DAC implementation and clock is what matters the most. With spdif the clock in the transport/streamer is a critical element. The N200 is optimized for USB while featuring a decent clock for spdif. This is where the N20 takes it up a notch or three with its integrated OXCO clock that takes care if the outbound spdif signal better than the lower grade clock in the N200 does.

oops, sorry, you need both a server for your use case.  But same idea, even more so on the server side.  For that, there are a lot of cheaper alternatives; one that I have alot of experience with are the sonicTransporters from Snall Green Computer.  You can have a very nice unit for under $1.5k, and it comes preloaded with Roon if you ever decide to go that route (which I also recommend - it works seamlessly with Quobuz).

have to agree with @benanders on this one.  The extent to which streamers have a “sound” is somewhat controversial in some circles (i.e., if jitter and power source noise is minimized).  So spending a lot of $ on your first streamer seems like a bit of a leap.  There are a lot of well regarded streamers for $1k or less.  A partial list includes: Volumio, Pro-Ject, iFi, cambridge audio, even the Wiim Pro for a mere $150.

@jfrmusic, You asked “ May I ask why you went this way?” Very simple. Two of my friends with expensive audio system went with Audirvana Studio and stated their Sound quality was much improved. I contacted others and they agreed. So, I installed a demo Audirvana Studio on my MAC computer and was impressed. After several months of listening, and comparing to my N20, I purchased a dedicated MACBOOK M2 Pro, 12-Core CPU, 19-Core GPU 16GB Unified Memory with Audirvana  

My sound quality is excellent.