+1 boswall good observation, you are correct!
As Advised, Starting With Speakers First.
After licking my wounds and on the mend financially, I’m getting poised to rebuild. My wife and I are going to be doing a little touring around WA & OR last week of December and wondered what any of you Pacific Northwester’s thoughts were (yes you too Chuck being a local, but not thinking Tektons just yet) are on some of the local dealers around the area? There’s Tune Hi Fi, Hawthorne Stereo, Definitive Audio, Kitsap Audio and Gig Harbor Audio that all offer some interesting products. Also Reference Media in Bellingham. Any others, pros & cons, general advice, are all welcomed!
These establishments will not even graze all the speaker options out there, so if you have any other speaker recommendations, please let ’em fly. I know, there’s are a ton of threads on speakers, and I am trying to go and hear what I can with my own ears, but I would like to hear of peoples experiences where they order factory direct, which is fairly common these days, sight unseen/unheard and if they are getting/hearing what they want when purchasing blind. Or are you all spending a lot on return shipping?
The listening room at the new digs (ya, even sold the house too) measures 24’ x 15’ with a slightly vaulted ceiling and an L shaped opening to a small kitchen about halfway down. The two end walls that are 15’ wide both have doorways in them so speakers would be in the way. Probably best to have them on one of the long walls. One wall is solid for the first 2 feet then widows 5’ up from there the total length of the wall. The other side is solid, but my back would be to the view whilst listening. All hard surfaces.
Listen to just about every genre of music except Country & opera. Floor standers would be nice bypassing subs, but I’m open (maybe not the wife though, it’s a small house!) Had Martin Logan Spires in the past. Fun to listen to in the sweet spot but got fatiguing during long listening sessions and very unforgiving to poorer recordings. You get what you play.
Budget, well, I sold my previous entire $20K system for about half that so maybe in around $10-12K to replace amp, Dac, source and speakers inclusive.
Thanks
These establishments will not even graze all the speaker options out there, so if you have any other speaker recommendations, please let ’em fly. I know, there’s are a ton of threads on speakers, and I am trying to go and hear what I can with my own ears, but I would like to hear of peoples experiences where they order factory direct, which is fairly common these days, sight unseen/unheard and if they are getting/hearing what they want when purchasing blind. Or are you all spending a lot on return shipping?
The listening room at the new digs (ya, even sold the house too) measures 24’ x 15’ with a slightly vaulted ceiling and an L shaped opening to a small kitchen about halfway down. The two end walls that are 15’ wide both have doorways in them so speakers would be in the way. Probably best to have them on one of the long walls. One wall is solid for the first 2 feet then widows 5’ up from there the total length of the wall. The other side is solid, but my back would be to the view whilst listening. All hard surfaces.
Listen to just about every genre of music except Country & opera. Floor standers would be nice bypassing subs, but I’m open (maybe not the wife though, it’s a small house!) Had Martin Logan Spires in the past. Fun to listen to in the sweet spot but got fatiguing during long listening sessions and very unforgiving to poorer recordings. You get what you play.
Budget, well, I sold my previous entire $20K system for about half that so maybe in around $10-12K to replace amp, Dac, source and speakers inclusive.
Thanks
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One wall is solid for the first 2 feet then widows 5’ up from there the total length of the wall.
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The room:
http://prnt.sc/w0w9bv 15' x 40' - The back wall is were fireplace now sits. L shaped into the kitchen on the right, steps back down to 15' wide half way down the room. Windows all down left side, no curtains or blinds. Slightly vaulted ceiling sheathed in OSB. Eventually, hard vinyl plank floor with a couple of rugs. |
twoleftears - Lou is right in my back yard, 10 minutes from my house! I did a little tour for almarg just before his passing as he had a set of Lou’s Ulysses. I put together a lengthy email for Al with a bunch of pictures and a written description of Lou’s place and the area in general. Lou’s speakers are awesome, I even got a listen (I like the Bundles both Lou and Clayton of Spatial Audio offer with the LTA set-up) but the Daedalus units are like pieces of family heirloom furniture that just aren’t going to work for my wife and I at our new digs. I did ask Lou about a custom color and he said it would be WAY more expensive to paint them, over the cost of his wood finished that he offers. Go figure? |
Here's what I have lined up for the weekend of December 19: - Klipsch Cornwall 4's - Leagacy Signature's - Harbeth 30.2 XD's - Devore 0/93's - Vandersteen 2ce's and Treos - Magnapan LRS and 1.7's - Monitor Audio (something in the $2K range, didn't specify model) - Chapman T7's - Spendor 7.2's - Larson's (a couple of models) - Maybe some Focus speakers? - There's even a pair of Wharfdale Elysian's around too, for what it's worth That's about all I could muster up with 2 days down in the big city! |
duckworp - Great advice, thank you, but like many others looking to purchase audio equipment most dealers are in the big cities, which can be a long trek for many. On the other side of the coin, some direct sale manufacturers offer in home trials for X amount of time. If you don’t get the right fit after a few try’s, return shipping fees will really start to eat up the budget. It’s funny, many here say they have hit it just right purchasing unheard equipment, whereas others, such as yourself, say you would only purchase if you could actually here it in their own room. Now I know what that space between a rock & a hard place feels like. |
I am sure you are planning this but I would urge no one to buy a pair of speakers, or at least not expensive speakers, without demoing them in the room they are going to be placed in. Speakers are so room dependent that it is better to find a small range of options from dealers prepared to home demo, rather than listen to a ton of speakers in other people's rooms. |
Oddly enough, a few years back, I had my Martin Logan Spires in a very similar, but much larger room. The room was all hard surfaces. Glass, granite, wood, a full wall of glass, etc. They were also pretty close to the back wall, which I custom made a couple of acoustic panels for. All in all, they sounded pretty darn good, I was very surprised! Still a bit fatiguing but consider the room and the placement, not bad at all. Since then I sold the ML's for $2,500 and to replace them with a newer equivalent is well over $10K (ESL 11A's). Don't think I'm going there there! Honestly, I would prefer some passive speakers that I can somehow make work in this room, just not sure how...yet. |
i would agree with leftears and others speakers in the room - that is what actually makes the music you will experience find the speakers that work well for you in your environment, then tailor the rest of course, you need to have a source in mind as well, but if it is a reasonably high quality, good sounding, tonally balanced source, the speaker choice is the lynchpin, around which you match other components |
Hey Chuck, thanks for the offer, I will definitely take you up on this one day as I have lots of time to figure this out. The new place needs a ton of work so don’t really need tunes for a while yet, just taking my time and researching! This trip is a combo of family visits (daughter is in Tacoma) and my wife and I’s 10th wedding anniversary (Oregon Coast). We haven’t had a holiday or any time off together since then. Just trying to fit in a few audio shops in on route. I don’t want to push to much on her at once, so will forgo it this time around, hope you understand. As much as I don’t think Tektons’ are a great fit in my (and my wife’s!) little space, I would love to have a listen and see all the goodies you have accumulated and tweaked in your system over the years. Maybe I could pick up patrickdowns up at the ferry? |
twoleftears Talked to John at AC and stopping into to see him just after Xmas. He's also only an 8 minute walk to Hawthorne's, talk about hitting the ball outta the park! Thanks so much for the tip. |
I have a whole box of OC703 sitting in my shop making it real easy to show just how effective and simple this stuff is to work with. I also have things like Synergistic Research HFT that are almost invisible yet incredibly effective. There’s a YouTube video you can watch where they treat an entire room that starts off all bare walls sounding terrible and the improvement from HFT is so great you can hear it on the video even from a laptop. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AX9W_vVAEo I’ve also now got several Schumann generators which is another one that’s very small yet makes a huge difference. That’s just the room treatment type stuff. There’s another half a dozen or so things going on all of which add together. What they all have in common, not many have actual ears-on experience to appreciate just how good they are, just how much they can elevate a system. Every single one of them has an impact that is easy to hear and impressive. Otherwise I don’t bother. Take even just one of them out you will hear the sound collapse. Take them all away it will be just another blah stereo. Okay still better than most but no longer totally freaking amazing. Which it is. Come and listen. You will see. I have that Christmas weekend off by the way, so good time to come. |
big_greg - from Echo: Thanks for reaching out and I certainly wish we could accommodate you, but unfortunately we're only open for pickup and drop off - no in-store auditions or shopping - for the foreseeable future. I bet I know who Big Greg is, but give him our thanks for the recommendation. Best regards, Jake |
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stebut I have my appointment with Hawthorne on Saturday, December 26th at 1 PM. I have an email out to Echo but unfortunately I will be passing through Portland on his day off. I did ask if he would see my appointment though. Standing by... |
I'm kind of getting bummed out a bit with the new house thing after watching this video: Is HiFi For Rich People because I can't afford anything ! - YouTube At 3:43 the commentator states " You shouldn't even consider buying Hi-Fi at all if you don't have the room or acoustic treatments" Well the room at the new place room sucks and I'm not sure how to treat it acoustically with large widows that open to a great view running the full length of one side of the room. This was a trade off, a big house with a dedicated music room or a smaller place (960 sq. ft.) with a view. The wife doesn't even want curtains! Is active/DSP the only alterative to rubberizing the room? I don't thing GIK panels all over the place is an option either. I really want my tunes and eat ribs too. What is a guy to do...UGH! Thanks |
patrickdowns, You owe it to yourself to take the ferry (or the drive around) to come and hear for yourself. Not only to hear how crazy good Moabs are, but to see and hear for yourself the many excellent tweaks. Including some I'm obliged to keep under wraps for the time being, but will be happy to demo. The hangup with buying unheard, I get it, but check it out: Schumann generators, Townshend Pods, Nobsound springs, Moab, Synergistic CTS speaker cable, Atmosphere interconnect, Koetsu Black Goldline, Herron VTPH2A, Melody I880, Dayton amps, four subs, and probably a bunch more stuff I'm forgetting, was all bought unheard. Not one disappointment in the bunch! Not saying you can't go wrong. Saying DYODD and auditions go from essential to an accessory its nice to have if its not too inconvenient. You are welcome any time. If its not too inconvenient! In Redmond just 2 miles east of 405 off Kirkland-Redmond Exit 18. |
Thanks soix
I just came back from the house and it looks like there's 12' of wall or so even before the opening door, so the right channel will have a fair bit of space, but the left will be trapped in the corner. With this in mind, do the the Olympica ll (nice looking unit) and/or KO need much air? |
patrickdowns - Maybe we can take glupson's unnoticed, sophisticated advice and all meet up together ay MC's and try out those finger lickin' good Tektons' After we all get our vaccinations, of course! (I think Chuck is immune?) twoleftears - double whammy, wow! Audio connection/Chapman speakers. I think I could only afford maybe the T-5's, but what an intriguing looking line of speakers. Thanks! |
high-amp Yes, Definitive bought out Advanced iirc, but the sign on the store still says Advanced Audio. Their website must have been merged with Definitive. I’ve been wanting to go to Hawthorne and audition Larsens, but they were shut down for months. They offered to loan me a pair for in-home audition but it would mean two 2.5 hour round-trips from where I am on the Olympic Peninsula WA to do that. In the meantime, I bought another pair of Vandersteens! The Larsens are said to be very room-friendly as far as placement goes, and long wall is ideal iirc. They can go against the wall (it’s recommended) so very spouse friendly. I would like the 8 (3-way) but the 6 is said to be good too. Here is an A’gon thread I recently put up on them: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/larsen-speakers-anyone-here-heard-or-owned-them I would love to hear Tektons and eat ribs, millercarbon! :) I’ve seen good comments about those but I wasn’t willing to order them unheard. |
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jjss49, that's great help! The ultimate in social distancing as well. |
steve59 - Yes, I just touched on this in my last post. I'm definitely open to any suggestions for active speakers with good base (no subs?) for this room. Particularly if room treatments are not an option for me. Small room, small gear. If active sounds good I can do minimalist. Gotta sound good though! As far as listening levels, quit low while puttering around the house but for serious listening sessions somewhere around 92 db’s, give or take a bit. |
highamp buchardts are direct sale - so no/few showrooms will demo here are well done, accurate (imho) reviews i mention them because they are voiced slightly warm side of neutral but with excellent sense of life and slam, they have truly great bass extension and they have very wide dispersion, so will solve the ’head in a vice issue... i have them in my second system driven by a Hegel H190, they are really outstanding... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZJiEBtfah0&t=1063s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYDc2VKZAv0&t=317s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OTQUb7YGjM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEeLw6Oz3Ck https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90wKT8aU1_g&t=728s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odn1R_M_QPo&t=433s |
soix - lightly used works. Tubes? Linear Tube Audio peaks my interest. As far as aspects of sound rep, I would like to fill the room more, less head in the vice, pin-point listening. Although this new place is kinda small, (narrow and long) as I think I have decided to place the speakers on the short, 15’ wide (keep the door open?) jjss49 - Excellent info, thank you. Nice to know from someone who actually owns Spatials’. In my trip south it seems like I can cover most bases you mentioned like Harbeths’ and Tritons’ but not Butchardts’. patrickdowns - it’s funny you mention Advanced. I was looking through my old emails and I was going to see Bob around the same time last year but my wife feel ill and we had to cancel. When I Google searched audio shops in the area yesterday only Definitive Audio showed up, so I’m thinking Definitive bought Advanced out? I have sent an email to Bob about setting up another appointment but haven’t heard back yet. Thanks again for rattling my cage on this one! hilde45 - Music is my meds, so it’s just a quick dash out to the store or 2. Not going for ribs or fish steaks. Hence my question about ordering unheard equipment, which I once had a terrible experience with! Wash your hands, cover your face keep your distance, sanitize surfaces. I’ll be as careful as I can...Thanks Someone mentioned source, yes digital only for now. When I was younger, I had thousands of records and a very sweet TT set-up. Lots of fun and sounded great, but like muscle cars, very expensive and time consuming so I sorta got that out of my system (no pun intended) Hawthorne Stereo seems to have a good selection of Spendors’ and Larsons’ which were talked a lot about in another, recent thread here. For that "Up again the wall" cure (maybe screw the door shut!) Active speakers have piqued my interest lately with some having on-board room correction, possibly taking the room out of the equation. Seems active speakers are a little harder to source out to demo though. |
being on a budget you do need to get it right so why not seriously consider dsp active speakers. You won’t have to worry about component matching, the dac should be part of the system, and the amps are already paired and did I mention the bass will walk all over most passive systems. I have 2nd hand meridian, but there’s more options that sound every bit as good and cost much less. |
Is this post from now? 2020? I’m kind of amazed with the comfort folks are expressing here about visiting shops or people’s homes. Given the rates of Covid here in Colorado, I would not spend any time in a store or stranger's closed room during cold weather. Aerosols hang in the air for a long time, so even if you’re in the room alone... In my estimation of risk, a quick dash to the supermarket for food or a pharmacy for meds, but for audio equipment? Not on the same level for me. |
op spatials need 2-3 ft min from front wall, similar to side walls - i also think they also benefit greatly from symmetry in placement relative to room boundaries given their unique bass radiation pattern - i got m3 sapphires after speaking to clayton, enjoy them a lot in my dedicated listening room, but you shd know that they are very ’alive’ sounding speakers, treble is extended/strong even driven with tubes ... i suspect a sound signature like tektons, proacs, kefs i have heard (with all the open baffle benefits of course), they are not at all a ’more reserved, romantic’ speaker this being said, i have heard older spatial models are more rolled off in the treble, m4’s and m3 turbos - you should be sure to check out pictures of them make sure wife will accept - they can dominate a room, especially a living room given your ’hard’ room, you might consider spendors or even upper wharfedales, they have a warmer signature with terrific vocal/midband reproduction and solid bass - if stand mounts, harbeths and buchardts are exceptional - another idea is golden ear tritons... good luck have fun |
jjss49 I think you hit the nail on the head! The big buzz these days is open baffles. The Spatial's seem to be the flavor of the day but I'm not sure how they would work in that room and how close they can be to the back wall to perform effectively. I like the theory behind them and it would save a trip south, just gotta pick up the phone and order! Maybe a call to Clayton is in order? |
patrickdowns: awesome, I forgot all about Advanced Audio. I had then bookmarked a couple of years ago, but they seemed to escapes my radar, they didn’t even show up on a Google search of the area. They will definitely be on my To-Do list. Hey big_greg, I have not really researched Portland as of yet but will definitely add Echo Audio to my list. Thanks so much for that! glupson "I am not sure about Mike Lavigne, though. It must be an experience, but do you want to feel inferior for the rest of your time?" Gee, I don't know what to say. Most of your comments, since I have been on AG, are pretty trivial and with no real substance. I'm thinking unless you can offer me some sound advice, maybe you could just keep your comments corraled? Thank you. |
