Are Preamplifier’s Relevant Today or just a Hinderance with Digital Playback ?

You don’t know what the "colorations" are. You’re getting into what Floyd Toole called the circle of confusion. Take the mic, room, equipment, speakers etc.. used to record and these Recordings are as different as night and day from each other and whatever you’re using to playback with. There’s no way to recreate the thousands of different combinations to get what the final mixers heard. It’s a waste of time trying to tune your system to a live event or certain recordings the best you can do IMO is reproduce what’s on the media as neutral as possible, use as transparent gear as you can possibly get.

I agree. There are too many variables to ever know how close Your system recreates the sound that was recorded. Even @atmasphere , having recorded a piece and so in theory has something to compare the recording to, is not really close to knowing - unless you are playing back the recording in the same room as it was recorded you get the massive variable of the Room. A recording studio and your listening room will make instruments sound very different.

If you listen to live instruments many of them are sharp sounding. Many audiophiles like smoother sounding. I dropped the ideal of true to life sound when i admitted to myself that i have preferences.

having recorded a piece and so in theory has something to compare the recording to, is not really close to knowing - unless you are playing back the recording in the same room as it was recorded you get the massive variable of the Room. A recording studio and your listening room will make instruments sound very different.

I have a number of recordings done in several venues including our studio. This helps vastly reduce that issue!

@duckworp as do i, on both digital and high speed tape....couple Bryston monoblocks in the rack and some Bryston Middle T...for monitors, Stax for the close in work

Let the chorale pick the ribbons...

chasing another ounce of detail out of Aja....is chasing your own tail...but a lot of fun

indeed knowlege of your preferences is self awareness 

Convincing yourself that a preamp does not help does save you some money.
I tried a couple of passive preamps.  They were much worse sounding than the same companies' active ones, and suspect that these non-preamp people are missing out on something

I've been doing some experimenting with this very thing recently. Using dac's digital volume control least desirable, loss of bits means resolution losses. I also have three choices of passive volume attenuation available. Passive resistor volume control built into my Coincident Turbo 845SE, Schitt Saga (also resistor based volume control) on passive or tube buffer setting. I also have Coincident Statement MKII linestage for active pre with further upgraded Amtrans rotary selector (transformer volume control).

As I stated previously, dac direct to amp has always been least desirable going through many amp and dac combinations over the years. Passive with either the Schitt or Coincident Turbo third best. Schitt on tube buffer setting second best, adds some meat on the bone. Statement active best, none of the others can match the micro and macro dynamics provided by acitve. These added dynamics provide a much greater sense of real live performers in room. Other added sq improvements, just on a lesser scale.

Still, apples to oranges here, over 6k active vs. $400 plus nice 6sn7 tube in Schitt or questionable cost of passive built into Turbo. The marginal gains here make all the difference for me.

Hi @sns,
I haven’t heard the Coincident 845 Turbo SE but word of mouth reports are of very high praise. So I suspected its passive preamplifier section must be pretty good. Your comparison with the Coincident Statement Line Stage is informative.  The Statement is a superb component and for all the reasons you mentioned. It pairs marvelously with my Frankenstein 300b mono blocks.

I’ve also heard my amplifier paired with the Atma-Spherw MP-1 and VAC Signature MK II, both were splendid. High quality active preamplifiers are formidable.
Charles

I had a Benchmark HPA4 preamp with a Gustard X26 Pro and the sound was fabulous. A killer pairing.

Then a few weeks ago, I moved the HPA4 to another room and had the Gustard DAC direct to amp. The music sounds a bit more lean. I also have a few semi loud pops on the speaker and also varying amounts of hiss. Turning the Gustard OFF and then ON again reset the hiss to a lower level. This did not give me me confidence on the DAC direct to amp.

Today I put in a CODA 07x preamp with Gustard. Great sound again with more body to the sound. Different from the HPA4 preamp but both are way better than DAC direct to amp on my setup, especially so at low volume. I am listening at low volume while my son goes to sleep in the next room and everything is there in the music, just at a lower volume. A digital volume cannot do low volume well, parts of the music go missing.

...stopped using a preamp nearly 3 decades ago.
Haven't missed it a bit.
A digital 'switcher' handles What, a simple matrix switchbay determines How.

For me, a screen control over a digital 'switchbay' would be a nice touch.  Plug everything into The Box, poke 'n prod the program into the route dujour, and enjoy....or whatever I'm listening For....

Yes, I do listen to 'the stuff', but not to the cables or ICs'.
I already 'know' what that sounds like.  What it Is....not what it's not....;)

At this point in my life, I listen less to vinyl and do more streaming. My digital rig sounds really good to me, and while my vinyl rig sounds better it’s not by much. A while back, I was considering selling my Technics 1200G and Herron VTSP-2A(r02) vinyl rig, and giving my 1,200 albums to my son. And I was curious as to how my system would sound without a pre amp.

In my listening room, I’m using a PS Audio BHK pre amp, DirectStream DAC, and BHK250 power amp. Since the DSD has a volume control, I connected it directly to the BHK250 for some A/B listening. The sound was soft and unengaging. So much for that experiment.

I came to my senses and decided to keep my vinyl rig. I’ve heard some amazing streaming systems, but the best I’ve ever head was vinyl, but that system was so far out of my price range I don’t even dream of owing one. I’m just saying .....

@oldschool1948 Try incorporating Fibre Optical cable to your streaming. It will make a world of difference. I use the Sonore Optical Rendu’s. Analog noise cannot travel inside Fibre Optical cable. A great equalizer in my opinion to cheaply getting noiseless streams into the DAC.

Yes, a good preamp is a necessity for a good audio system. 
  Each one has a somewhat sonic sound of its own.

  Only digital I do is iPod connected to preamp via the mini jack to preamps rca.  At low volume and background tunes.

critical,listening is LP & CD. 
I learned my lesson. I now do lossless?. I think for all my iPod playback,  CDs still sound better. 

@yyzsantabarbara  My streaming path is Cardas Ethernet to an Innous Zenith MK2 via WireWorld USB cable to a Matrix X via a cheap .5 meter HDMI cable to my DAC.  I hear a clear and distinct SQ improvement using the Matrix as opposed to going direct from the Zenith with a USB cable or Ethernet cable to Bridge II.  Ethernet to Bridge II sounds the worst and it only supports up to DSD64.

I’ve procrastinated on buying an “audiophile” grade I2S cable because I like what I hear now.  Having said that, I liked the sound of a NAD M22v2 power amp until I heard the BHK250 in my system.  I’ve been looking at my options and will buy a better HDMI cable soon.  

Fiber optic is somewhat appealing to me, and I’ve researched the OpticalRendu.  I’m not sure the SQ improvement is worth the switch and I have no way of knowing unless I buy the pieces needed to find out.  I never say never, but for now I plan to stick with what I have.

in_shore OP
Are Preamplifier’s Relevant Today or just a Hinderance with Digital Playback ?

Everything being a good match eg: impedance matched and also the digital domain volume control is not below 70% (so it "bit strips") then direct sounds just like what the the source is giving out, if it’s good or bad. Unless you want/need to color it with a active preamp.

If you can’t use your digital volume control at 70% or above because it too loud, then use a $49 Sys passive between it and the power amp to preset the level so then you can use the digital volume at 70% or higher.

Remember what Nelson Pass says about passive preamps

Nelson Pass,
"We’ve got lots of gain in our electronics. More gain than some of us need or want. At least 10 db more.
Think of it this way: If you are running your volume control down around 9 o’clock, you are actually throwing away signal level so that a subsequent gain stage can make it back up.
Routinely DIYers opt to make themselves a “passive preamp” - just an input selector and a volume control.
What could be better? Hardly any noise or distortion added by these simple passive parts. No feedback, no worrying about what type of capacitors – just musical perfection.
And yet there are guys out there who don’t care for the result. “It sucks the life out of the music”, is a commonly heard refrain (really - I’m being serious here!). Maybe they are reacting psychologically to the need to turn the volume control up compared to an active preamp."

Cheers George

@oldschool1948 Your Innuos is likely helping out a lot in the streaming quality department. In my case, I do not do anything to improve my streaming pipeline until the Fibre cable then USB to DAC. So for me the difference was huge. So much so that I bought 2 OpticalRendu's for each of my DAC's.

You can easily get by without a separate pre-amp it’s your choice. 

it takes a heck of a DAC to have an analog section capable of robust drive and dynamics that a good preamp brings to the table- if you are plugging directly into a power amp and not an integrated.  
i need a preamp because I need tubes and that is where I prefer them.  
i cannot live on solid state alone.  it really does sound lackluster,  

An active preamp any day ,because of its power supplies and gain stage keeps a constant voltage and steady soundstage 
and imaging Rick solid .A passive preamp ,or direct from dac ,
doesnot present the control and stability of the signal voltage .
I have tried them all I am referring to a high quality solid state 
or vacuum tube preamplifier section .
in my latest purchase the Coda CSIB integrated amp. It Is a true Active class A preamplifier section with a tremendous 120 amps on tap for dynamic swings .It has a top notch amp,and preamp section  much better then direct from digital by a lot !!

it takes a heck of a DAC to have an analog section capable of robust drive and dynamics that a good preamp brings to the table-

Just about any good dac these days has an output stage equal to or even better than preamps especially tube preamps.
And you don't need anymore gain, we have more than enough in today's sources, use all the gain the source has, don't shunt it to ground, then make it back up again along with more noise and distortion added by a preamps gain stage. 
Cheers George

DAC is not accurate. DAA is proper. Dijitteral Analog Approximator. Clocking errors and jitter will forever be the distortion that, along with the irritation of odd order harmonics, keeps you forever on the merry-go-round. 
Stereo is an anti-social disaster perched on a little postage stamp in a large room because the rest is just waves and troughs. Put a Khorn in the corner run some tube gear and turntable and let the party roll, everyone gets a seat at the show even the cheap seats are good. George Harrison maintained until the day he died that you never heard Sgt. Peppers until you heard it in mono. 

@georgehifi,
we will have to disagree on that front.  my ears tell me otherwise and it isn't close.  

The existence of digital playback technology in a Music Reproduction System is not in any way, matter, or scope related to the need to a preamplifier in any meaningful, significant, or substantial way.  

+1,00000,000 very clearly said and to the point. clearthink .

I tend to over elaborate too much with technical reasons and it confuses some.

Always best to use as much as possible all of the sources output, for reasons of noise/hum/distortion/colorations regardless of what it is, even phono.

You don’t floor the accelerator on a super car (the source), yet keep your foot on the brake (the preamp) to get to the destination ( the power amp)

Cheers George

This topic, like many, has been spoken about, ad nauseam. But the truth is, having a preamp simply depends on 1 thing......  do you need the added gain, which is system dependent. I have not heard ( in my system ) a preamp at the 10K and above price range, but have heard, and have owned, several under 10 K preamps, that sounds less " clean ", than my top model Luminous Audio passive, being fed by my dacs, into any number of amplifiers I run. Speakers are horns,  over 100db, which makes a huge difference when needing, or not needing, additional gain.