simao ... the MD catalog does pay lip service to contemporary artists, but its adherence to a musical paradigm that peaked 45 years ago or so is symptomatic of the undeniable waning of "hi-fi" as a hobby. The hi-fi hobby isn’t undeniably on the wane. It’s evolving, just as it has from its earliest beginnings when it was very much a DIY pursuit. In any event, your conclusion assumes that the MD catalog is somehow representative of the hi-fi industry as a whole. That’s quite an assumption. |
Lets face it the best music was made during that era. No internet, no cable, no computers, etc. Music was the best way to express and enjoy. Too bad the sound (recording) quality was not better. I think that’s why we keep buying all the "new remastered" versions.
Someday soon all us "old people" and our sacred music will be gone, but history will still remember.
ozzy
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@cleeds Right - i wasn't intending to make a sweeping generalization based on one publication (though I know I did). But it's also the offerings in Music Direct and in Stereophile and similar media.
If hi-fi is evolving, it seems the target market isn't.
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It also is a problem with younger people actually enjoying the hardware and the hobby as we old farts do.
I can remember making so many speaker cabinets, Heathkit projects along with recordings on reel to reel, 8 track, cassettes, records, cd and now high def. All in the pursuit in the ultimate sound. This emotion and dedication is missing in those that have not experienced the adventure.
ozzy
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As probably the oldest fart here, I can assure you, (in my best Gabby Hayes voice) young whippersnappers, that some of the early recordings, even in mono, were really great. :-)
Try the jazz recordings put out in the late 50’s and early 60s on the Contemporary and Pacific Jazz labels. They are excellent. Also, for the classical buffs, try the strings on the Westminister label. For the Exotica guys, try the Command label for percussion.
RCA "Living Stereo," London "Blue Backs," and Mercury "Living Presence" recordings are the icons thanks to HP’s "Absolute Sound" evaluations, but there’s tons more besides those two labels from The Golden Era that will run circles around some of the modern recordings, especially the modern stuff that is drenched in artificial digital reverb.
Frank |
Music Direct. Symptomatic of the undeniable waning of "hi-fi" as a hobby. Good one.
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@millercarbon exactly!
I live in Chicago and have been to MusicDirect. I have met their sales team, seen them in action, been in their warehouse and listening room. I have also attended their massive record sales on the weekends. They are booming and not waning! Ha!
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99.999% of the artists today are not worthy of being a pus-filled carbuncle on Joni Mitchell's lip...
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Yes, music direct is booming; that's why they can afford such a high investment catalog like they put out. The please don't tell me that the high-end audio industry as a whole is becoming more marginalized, and that millennials uneven gen-xers are putting as much money into it has Boomer is dead for the past 40 years.
as long as the music they market continues to reflect an outdated cultural gatekeeper paradigm, not too many younger people are going to want to invest in it. |
The music endures and the appeal of it continues to attract the waning and the waxing....regardless of genre or age of artist. Could MD have a more current listing of artists, sure, but not an indicator of hi-fi's demise. A conclusion without solid evidence.
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Most qualitative conclusions are. However, many threads exist on this forum that attest to hi end audio's current wane/marginalization. |
I'm a Gen-X-er, and I hear you on the cultural dominance of the Boomers. For a long, long time, I had to stay away from the catalog of Rolling Stone's 100 best albums from 1987 that formed the backbone of my early collection. Lately I've been returning to it, especially to Joni Mitchell, CSN, and others. She is a towering genius. I picked up my first Byrds records recently, for cryin out loud! Similarly, I've been giving towering geniuses of 90s music a rest: Yo La Tengo, Smog, Low, Do Make Say Think. I'll return to that too soon enough. But we live in a different distraction-saturated world now, or maybe I'm just older. Music is my refuge from endless distraction. While music doesn't necessarily demand concentration, it puts me in a state of a kind of peripheral reception. I think there'll always be a market or communities for the appreciation of music in this way. And you can find that music in every decade. But it would do to keep exploring the frontiers. Good new music is out there. And I've just been going into different genres, back in time to classical and early music, jazz, etc. My stereo would be really mad at me if I stuck with "my generation's" music. |
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I listen primarily to Classical Music. For a variety of reasons, after World War II most newly composed Music has had trouble entering the canon of basic repertoire. Most of the energy of discovery or rediscovery has been on Composers that were outside the acknowledged Masters— first Late Romanticists such as Mahler and Bruckner, then with the Historical Informed Period Practice (HIPP) movement, Baroque and Pre Baroque composers. When I attend a Concert and a new contemporary piece is on the program, everyone in the audience seems to grit their teeth for the ordeal—faces remind me of being at the Dentist office in the pre Novacaine days—and then we relax and wait for the next Warhorse to begin.
The OP describes what to me seems an analogous situation. The great Pop Music of about a 30 year span has achieved canonical status. And while I am aware that new Pop Artists are always amongst us and selling out concerts and downloads, I think everyone here would agree that the scene doesn’t remotely resemble the halcyon days of yore. Classical Concerts resemble Audio Museums, and the Music Direct Catalog, which in these days of the extinction of stores that sell Physical Media represents an important source of such media, is the Pop equivalent of the Classical scene.
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It’s about time we got in charge of the musical culture. We had to listen to endless pop jazz treacle when we were coming up. Your kids will have the same complaints about your music soon enough.
By the way that was a beautiful picture of Joni Mitchell, wasn’t it? Don’t disagree and make me have to slap you around in front of your GenX friends. The should be more vintage pictures of Michelle Phillips and Linda Ronstadt too, not more unnecessary GenX stuff. Don’t worry, you’ll have your day sooner than you think.
Mike |
Hey - I agree that both the picture of Joni is quite incredible and that Joni herself was an incredible artist. I still occasionally revel in her Court and Spark, or her Blue album. And Hancock's "River" release was a fitting testament to her power.
It's just that these artists have been the pantheon for close to fifty years, and those who insist on fallacies that the best music was made in that era seem to be in denial that culture has moved on.
To know the past is imperative. To cling to it is to fade away.
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The one thing I know for sure is that today's artists have moved away from the wall of sound developed by Phil Spector and I miss that sound a great deal. Multiple instruments playing the same part, brass and woodwinds, strings over the top, and backup singers calling back or repeating what the lead sang. To my ear, the wall of sound adds so much interest to a song and I can find myself ignoring the lead and singing the backup parts (I could have been a Pip). Speaking of the Pips, the wall of sound technique was also incorporated into a great deal of Motown recordings as well. Today's music just sounds so stripped down that it doesn't hold my interest, even if the melody is decent.
Much of today's pop music also sounds very similar, because it seems like to be a hit a song has to fit into a more and more narrowly defined structure of what constitutes a hit. I'm a boomer and of course I'm biased, but I think the period of 1972-1975 had so many different styles of what was acceptable to be a hit. You had the folk rock of the Eagles and Jackson Browne, the soft rock of America and Bread, the hard rock of Led Zeppelin, Rolling Stones, and The Who, the pop rock of the Carpenters and Elton John, the glam rock of Bowie, and the progressive rock of Pink Floyd, Yes, Rush, and Jethro Tull, as well as a huge number of Motown acts. They were experimenting and developing and unlike today, were given more than just one album to develop their sounds.
Is there good music still being made today? Absolutely, but it's not what's being played on the radio and it's much more difficult to find. The one suggestion I have for people seeking good music is to look past the hit songs of even these artists from the period I mentioned and try to find deeper cuts because many of those deeper cuts are great as well. I find it kind of sad that even classic rock radio stations of today all have such small playlists. There's some great stuff from 1972-1975 that didn't make it big on the radio but still deserves a chance to be heard. |
Reminds me of applying for a weekend job at the local record store around 1983. Manager reeled off about 5 current artists and I responded with a blank stare. Told him that I only bought music that had been out at least 5 years before buying the album. Needless to say they stayed in business a few more years without my services. |
It all comes down to economics. But there's no real analogy between the industrial military complex known as the music industry churning out mindless pabulum that is pre-designed to achieve hit status, vs. the bottom-line antics of figuring out to pay an 80-strong group of professional instrumentalists a living wage. |
No Nancy Willson fans, I presume? |
Those who bemoan the influence of the historically relevant genius musicians of the past, although obviously entitled to their opinions, should dig a little deeper than a Rolling Stone list...that’s sort of like basing musical relevance opinions on the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Talk to musicians. Joni at the peak of her powers (or at any time really) produced brilliant and innovative stuff, but many great artists were below the popular music radar, and that’s still the case. Little Feat anyone? They were revered by the musicians of their day including Led Zep and everybody else with taste...no Hall of Fame for those guys...Many know about the tragic early demise of Jeff Buckley but few remember his brilliant dad Tim. Oh well. Jazz, interestingly, has current utterly astonishing musicians (Vijay Iyer, Craig Taborn, Brad Mehldau, Patricia Barber...on and on) making some great stuff, and that sells at a level lower than children’s recordings. Get out to the small venue clubs and support the "new kids" in the singer songwriter world...Anais Mitchell, although she likely will curtail her solo gigs due to the astonishing Broadway success of her play, "Hadestown," is astonishing (never heard of her? There ya go)...I worked with her in various venues over decades, as well as with countless other "unpopular music business" talented younger people...they’re out there, you just have to get off yer butt and support ’em. |
Amen, Wolf. In the singer/songwriter genre, there are contemporary artists as great as have ever lived, imo. You’ll never hear them on the radio or see them on TV (Letterman and The Larry Sanders Show often did, though), and certainly not on Awards shows. With one notable exception: the Americana Music Association Annual Honor Show held in The Ryman Auditorium. At that show you will see and hear the likes of Bonnie Raitt, Delbert McClinton, T Bone Burnette, Buddy Miller, Jim Lauderdale (often the host), Emmylou Harris, John Hiatt, Rodney Crowell, Richard Thompson, Levon Helm (after his passing, there was a great tribute to him, an assembled All-Star ensemble performing a great version of "The Weight"), Buddy Guy, Rosanne Cash, Irma Thomas, John Prine, Steve Earle, John Fogerty, Billy Bob Thornton, Loretta Lynn, Elvis Costello, Jason Isbell, Joe Henry, Maria Muldaur, Mavis Staples, Rhiannon Gibbons, Van Morrison, Dr. John, Gregg Allman, and hundreds more, even Robert freakin’ Plant! Most of the above are pretty long-in-the-tooth, but that’s the reality: It takes some livin’ to get really, really good. |
Oregonpappa, what is wrong with Ella or Sarah? Winnardt, just pick up any Beach Boys disc. Mahler123, definitely but Brahms and Shostakovitch do it for me and Paulburnett what is wrong with the Cribs, Arctic Monkey or Modest Mouse.
As for Joni Mitchell her music stands as her only testament. I melted over Blue when I was a kid. However her life was a total train wreck and I would never hold her out as an example to my girls. I wish her the best in her final days.
Anybody besides me like Kate Bush?
Audiophilia and music are two separate enterprises that to some extent influence each other. An Audiophile won't listen to anything that does not sound good and a lot of the good sounding stuff is trivial at best. Music lovers will listen to anything they consider to be good music. Of course in many of us these overlap.
Where am I in this...Last night I listened to an original pressing of Moby Grape's first album (yes, with the finger) at 95 dB through 800 watt/ch towering ESLs and four 200 lb sub woofers each powered by 2000 watts.
Rock and Roll:)
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mijostyn ... - Oregonpappa, what is wrong with Ella or Sarah?
Nothing at all. They are two of my favorites. I just wanted to post some artists that perhaps some folks haven't heard of before. Maybe pick up a couple of converts or two. :-) Frank |
I saw Moby Grape headlining a show in 1967...supported by Tim Buckley and Jimi Hendrix. Grape (along with the supporting acts....I mean seriously...) were astonishingly powerful. |
First off, I love the Music Direct Catalogue. Eye candy...and potential ear candy...galore. And now that I live in a town and on an island where the best audio store is the Office Max, I can't exactly head down to the cornucopia of high-end stores that surrounded me when I lived in L.A and have toadying salespeople ply me with Class A delights. Heck, Upscale Audio and Christopher Hanson were just a skip-and-a-jump away from me.
As for the supposed dearth of quality artists nowadays, I'll read a music review about a newcomer and then head to YouTube or Qobuz to check the artist out. I may be as picky as I ever was but I still hear my share of quality new artists.
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@wolf_garcia, though I've seen a lot artists and bands that others here might more wish to have been able to see live (The Beatles, Hendrix, Cream, The Who w/Moon), it is Moby Grape I most regret having missed. A couple of old friends/bandmates saw Dylan w/ The Hawks in '65 (damn it!), and Billy Swan told me saw Elvis, Scotty, & Bill on the back of a flatbed truck in Tennessee in '55. Wouldn't thatta been somethin'?! |
Thanks for those links Oregonpapa. I'd heard of Jo Stafford but that was my first listen to her voice. Wow.
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Anyone who has attempted to learn how to read music and play an instrument (or sing in a choir) knows what it takes to produce a good sound whether or not they pursue it or quit after awhile. After that you can think whatever you want, but give it a try first. Your ear should tell you what you need to know for life. I can listen to a transistor radio- and that's all I had for a long time back then. Good sound isn't expensive either. It's the kind of equipment that tends to disappear from the room that can make you all crazy. But It also has to be fun along the way (with a bit of pain on the side), but don't forget the days you sat (perhaps for hours) and practiced. I feel (for myself) it's the only way- when you have some skin in the game. |
To "pile on" bdp24 (!), I saw Dylan and the Hawks in 1966 in Honolulu on their way to Australia...the first concert in that arena (or anywhere else in Hawaii at that time) where a large pile of Altec A7s was used for the PA system (also the first time I'd seen Leslie cabinets). It was mind blowing seeing Bob do a brilliant acoustic set (Desolation Row...man...), take a short break, and then come out and absolutely kick butt...my 15 year old self never got over that one. |
@mijostyn +1 on Kate Bush! I am just about to clean a recently acquired Harvest/Capitol LP of The Kick Inside! I have been following her since 1979! She is a top-rank British singer/songwriter! |
Great choices oreganpapa! I'm a boomer, mostly listen to all of the jazz great vocalists from the era of your posted videos. Also a big Joni Mitchell fan. Admitedly, I don't listen to a lot of current artists, but I do own Ed Sheran vinyl. I've never understood locking one's listening into one genre. There's way too much great music out there! Country, classic rock, jazz, opera and on! |
oregonpappa, it is not dead either. Check out Cecile Mclorin Salvant and Esperanza Spaulding.
robertjerman you can find a great documentary on Kate on youtube. She is most definitely an original. Most singer/songwriters sing about their experiences (Joni Mitchell). Kate sings about what she imagines so she becomes a singing fetus in the womb or a Russian babushka or lost at sea. Most don't know this but Dave Gilmour (Pink Floyd) discovered her.
He played a solo version of The Man With the Child in his Eyes for EMI and they put her under contract at the age of 16. |
Wolf, yup quite a band. They were supposed to be the American Beatles but they self destructed. Omaha. I think only Michael Bloomfield flipped me out as much in the Paul Butterfield Band and Electric Flag. Another self destruct story. |
I saw Bloomfield (and the awesome Buddy Miles) in The Electric Flag in the Summer of ’68, at The Santa Clara County Folk-Rock Festival. Mark Naftalin was playing piano, Harvey Brooks bass, Nick Gravenites singing, and four sax players---two baritone, and two bass! The opening act was local band Fritz (Stevie Nicks’ and Lindsey Buckingham’s garage band), closers the doors. Speaking of self-destruction, Skip Spence of The Grape was living in a half-way house in downtown San Jose after he was released from the nut house. He could be seen roaming the streets, bumming cigarettes. Damn LSD. He was the drummer on the first Airplane album. |
mijostyn
I get that you were making the point that the Beach Boys used the wall of sound technique as well, but why in the world would you think I don't have Beach Boys discs since I admitted I'm very fond of that sound? Of course The Beatles, The Beach Boys, The Supremes, Dylan etc. (some of whom used the wall of sound and some didn't) of the 60's were phenomenal, I just think the creative element peaked somewhere in the early 70's and the wide range of what was acceptable to be a hit also peaked in the early 70's. With disco so prevalent later in the 70's (I actually like a few disco tunes, just not the genre) things changed and corporations took over and corporations decided who was going to be heard. And even though Elvis is thought of as a sexually charged performer, there was an even bigger shift
to the sexuality of the performer being as important as the music
with Prince and Madonna in the early 80's. |
I had a neighbor tell me that that no one was going to listen to two songs in a row from the same artist in his house, because he did not want anyone to be bored at his parties. That was 20 years ago. Now we have streaming and buying a song for 99 cents. I listened to albums when I thought they meant something before music videos hit TV. Hopefully the latest generation can find the time to do that.
Thanks for listening,
Dsper |
@wolf_garcia correct regarding the great jazz talents playing today! Agreed with your list. If you have Roon, Tidal and Qobuz, anyone is in a great position to discover the trove of excellent young jazz talents playing and recording today. Plus a great opportunity to listen to old masters. I just listened to Chet today. That is his recently released collection of Riverside recordings. A gem. |
For sure Winnardt but the industry fought back with the Indies. Now everyone has their own label and the industry??????
Music changed and became more... progressive which one either likes or not so much. Just look at the evolution of Radiohead or Wilco. |
All I can say is, after purchasing a MOFI Ultradeck about 6 months ago, the first new LP I bought was Joni's Blue ( 180 gram ). I had not had a turntable for about thirty years and my wife is a Joni fan. It sounds great. |
Singer, songwriter, instrumentalist, I stand in awe of her accomplishments.
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