Hi Everyone, At the suggestion of an A'goner who suggested I list out things I like, as opposed to things I don't, I'm going to do that here.
Some caveats apply: This is my personal taste. The buyer should use their own tastes to determine what is good or not.
Also, I've not listened to gear long enough, or as much as I'd like. This list is not only short, but I'm going to put ++ symbols next to an amp to note how much time I've actually had to listen to them.
Sadly for me, I am not a professional reviewer, and I feel very guilty asking dealers to let me listen to gear I have no intention of buying. Please take this as one personal list of experiences, not my attempt to rate equipment for all time.
Ambitious undertaking, thank you. A few suggestions:
1. Document the list of amps on a spreadsheet so it becomes a living document that you can update periodically as required. Reference it with a link on all future posts. 2. Include a "Last Updated" notation for the list so you and readers can easily comprehend how up to date the linked list actually is.
3. Include a "Notes" section/column for each amp for relevant information.
You, I and other members will likely think of other worthy improvements as time progresses; I think it's best to anticipate improvements and plan your list format as best as you're able from the get go.
Hi Tim!! Sadly I don't really want to treat this as a long term project, more of a one time posting. My ambitions right now are ridding myself of the excess furniture, tools and toys I have which I'm never actually going to use again.
Hi Bob! Ayre is a very interesting amp design. The diamond circuit is one I fell in love with and don't really know why, despite a number of serious criticisms of it's technical performance. It falls short of perfection but I really love the sound. I also love the sound of it implemented as a headphone amp. The Pono and Codex are among the best headphone amps I've ever heard.
Now, as for the speaker amps.... this is going to sound really weird, because I can't really connect what I hear with a technical measurement.
Ayre amps provide a lush dark backdrop which I've heard in no other amplifier. I don't mean they are dark sounding (i.e. reduced treble) but that the sound seems to emanate from absolute nothingness and explode without boundaries. An effect I've not heard in any other amplifier.
The argument can be made that there are colorations... but if so I can't describe them with the normal verbage.
D'Agostino lacks that, IMHO, but then, that's an Ayre signature quality. D'Agostino is like heavy lightning. Utterly smooth, no noise, no grain, also without a limit into the treble or bass.
I find the D'Agostinos and Luxmans to be a lot more similar than they are different.
All the amps in the A category I've listed make the B class seem restricted, like not enough energy comes out in the bass or the treble, and have an utter smoothness and liquidity the B class lacks.
Say Erik, could you list out things you really, really like, as opposed to the things you kinda sorta like?
Also, could you list the gear you felt guilty about listening to, because you kinda sorta thought you might be interested in buying, but then didn't, and so wound up feeling guilty even though you originally thought you wouldn't?
I'm afraid you have me confused with an employee of yours. I thought this was a forum to discuss our relationship with audio gear and share our experiences. As such I'm not really obligated to take your criticisms. I'm writing as I would talk, and explaining my goals as I go along.
Feel free to write better and show us how it should be done.
I am struck by the hilarity of trying to write a completely positive thread, and still having people come in to spoil the fun.
I mean, I can’t write about amps I like. I can’t say "I heard class D amps and I liked them, pretty cool"
What else will cause me to get hen pecked by the peanut gallery?
I mean, let me write a short post on a couple of DACs I heard ... that has GOT to get them all frothy. For heaven's sakes gang, you have all these pretenses of culture and taste and this is what you do for giggles?
Though to be fair, while I reserve the right to disagree, I also can see how I may have disagreed in less than kind or thoughtful manners when fan boys/fan girls assembled.
I have appreciated the advice I have received on this forum, and many of you seem knowledgeable and kind. But, I cannot stand the smallness and snobbery that has permeated this forum. Those you who engage in this negativity are proving nothing but the smallness of your hearts and minds. You impress no one. Do you really think you are the only smart people in this world? I read this forum regularly, hoping to learn and expand myself. But, too many of you make me feel like I need a shower after reading. Perhaps if things improve, I will read it again someday, and maybe participate. But, for now, I am out. Good luck.
Hi Select! I do indeed like class D.I haven’t heard that many different kits. Just old ICEpower and Hypex nCore.
But notice, I listed the ICEpower 250ASP (now 10 years old or more) as B .... the equal of a number of linear amps I’ve been able to listen to, and the better of some mega-buck amps which I'm not listing to stay positive. :)
There are probably even better Class D out there. I just haven’t heard them.
Ayre amps provide a lush dark backdrop which I've heard in no other
amplifier. I don't mean they are dark sounding (i.e. reduced treble) but
that the sound seems to emanate from absolute nothingness and explode
without boundaries. An effect I've not heard in any other amplifier.
@erik_squires Just my opinion, but I think this is because the Ayre amps are zero feedback. This would cause them to have more lower ordered harmonic distortion content and less higher ordered content- which can sound very much like what you describe. IMO one of the more brilliant designs out there.
Wow, a lot happened since my last post. @erik_squires , Thanks for the great description of the two amps. I agree, Ayre has a certain 'something', and I believe Ralph is correct in naming the Zero Feedback circuitry as being implicit for that sound quality. It seems I must have a thing for Zero Feedback as I own both the Ayre MX-R's and MA-1's. I never thought I was going to take things this far, but all the great advice from fellow Audiogoners brought me to my current state. I am waiting for Ralph to introduce his Class D amp. Given his past accomplishments, I can see this future product will give the other Class D manufacturers a real shock. Bob
I wouldn’t call the ARC the equal of the Ayre. I would call the ARC a very good integrated, one I could probably live with very happily.
I won’t wax effusively on it because my time with it was short. I would call the ARC a really great exemplar of what modern tubes can do, without sounding overly juicy, overly dark, or overly sterile.
Like a lot of other ARC products right now, the ARC integrated has the modern ARC sound. Extended, no longer as cool or sterile as old ARC (yeah, i said it, come get me) with the frequency extension and power. Easy to listen to and easy to get into the music’s ebb and flow
It may be too "middle of the road" for some, but I heard it with some medmium sized Wilsons and it was really good. Sasha’s maybe?? For the cost, size and easy of living with it is a very good integrated. If you like the modern ARC sound, and want a relatively small single unit to put in with no fuss, at a relatively low price point, it’s a great choice, IMHO.
Like everything, please listen for yourself!! :) Come back after listening and tell me I’m wrong. :)
Interesting. It sounds like you prefer modern ARC to historical ARC, and that you think ARC house sound (if I can call it that) has changed for the better over a number of years but to your ears is not (at least the integrated amp) quite on par with Ayre. I say ‘interesting’ because if anything some of what I’ve read on this site seems to lament ARCs direction and pine for the good old days there. But maybe that’s more as to service and old favorite employee departures than to sound quality.
I’m too new to the game to have a longer term point of reference, just trying to learn from those with experience and well formed opinions. I’m personally quite interested in ARC because I own a circa 2010 solid state ARC integrated (class D even - wow that’s way out on the ARC property fringes) and really like it. I got it as a demo unit on major sale while demoing a ton of speakers (didn’t have time/energy to put same level of effort into amp selection - it sounded great to me with the speakers I chose so that was good enough for me), and I knew from my last buying experience 20 yrs ago that ARC and Mc were two of biggest and well respected brands, and finally ARC was local to me so some regional pride in going with them I guess. It was kinda like, I can get ARC for this price? Done, back to focusing on speakers in my search. And I’m happy but probably don’t know what I’m missing if anything.
I guess in some ways different animals since ARC mainly tubes and Ayre mainly SS, from what I can tell. I think Luxman also in the latter camp and you’ve listened to Lux more, pls share your thoughts on how Ayre and Luxman compare to your ears. Thanks
+1 for the EVS 1200, a dual mono module design in an Italian chassis, with lots of tweaks to the newest IcePower modules and the internal wiring.
I probably have 200 listening hours by now, and keep getting blown away as I spin old discs that I am intimately familiar with. Of course the rest of the system needs to be really good to fully appreciate how great this amp is, but IMHO, at $2200, it is a cornerstone to build around
I am an ARC owner. My reservation with VSi75 is the volume control. I have the same doubts/concerns with most integrated amps. Preamps are critical to overall sound and the vast majority of integrated amps are amplifiers with shortcuts taken in the preamp stage, if there even is a preamp stage. Many use buffered volume controls of mediocre quality. This approach saves space, money, and affords a relatively high degree of transparency at the expense of dynamics and soundstage. A simple way to test the truth of this would be to plug a Ref 6 into the amplifier input of the amp stage but guess what; ARC does not let you circumvent the volume control with preamp in inputs.
ARC amps keep evolving as do most brands over time. The new 160M and S models don't sound like the prior 250/150/75 series. So there isn't only 2 flavors to ARC "House Sound" over the past 20 years or whatever time frame anybody cares to reference. One needs to be more specific about what models they are referring to. There's lots of love out there for the new direction ARC has gone on....although the prices make them unobtainable for many...so perhaps many haven't heard them yet.
Interesting. It sounds like you prefer modern ARC to historical ARC, and
that you think ARC house sound (if I can call it that) has changed for
the better over a number of years but to your ears is not (at least the
integrated amp) quite on par with Ayre.
I like to leave a lot of room for personal preference, so that's why I describe it that way. I would say I personally prefer Ayre, but is it a "better" amp?? I have a tough time saying it like that.
I say ‘interesting’ because if
anything some of what I’ve read on this site seems to lament ARCs
direction and pine for the good old days there. But maybe that’s more as
to service and old favorite employee departures than to sound quality.
In the late 80s, 90s I was much more of a Conrad Johnson fanboy and could simply NOT understand the ARC fans. So this hasn't changed for me at all, what's changed, IMHO is the direction of the gear. I think even the modern ARCs can be improved with better caps, they love those red Wimas. But in any event, this is all VERY personal, and not a true measure of quality or engineering acumen.
Has anyone ever heard a class D amp that did not sound thin, digital and without soul?
I answer your question in my original posting. There was nothing that wrong with the Class D amps I listened to. As I've written, they sounded exactly like the Parasound A21. For this and many other reasons, I find this characterization of Class D no longer valid. You have to take each amp and listen.
MT... The ps audio stellar amps sound great.... Had been disappointed by my previous class d excursions .. While at first impressive, Indeed they did sound thin and soulless over the long term.
The characterization of Class D amps as thin and soulless is painting the category with way too broad a brush. Even the first PS Audio amp with a class D output stage (HCA-2) could be modified to overcome its original shortcomings in high frequency reproduction and sound wonderful (although it still had a higher noise floor than current class D iterations.)
what you've never heard of pass Labs give them a try I own a pass Labs int-60 integrated amp and to me it's the most wonderful sounding amp that I've ever owned and I have owned at least a dozen different amps including McIntosh but as to class D amps I wouldn't own one if you gave it to me
Ayre amps provide a lush dark backdrop which I've heard in no other
amplifier. I don't mean they are dark sounding (i.e. reduced treble) but
that the sound seems to emanate from absolute nothingness and explode
without boundaries. An effect I've not heard in any other amplifier.
That is my experience, also. With a good speaker, there is a boundless sound that is intoxicating. I also like ARC. I guess I need to hear Atmasphere!
While I do not subscribe to any debate of what kind of amplifier or speaker is the one true faith and all others are infidels, I have my personal favorite, but I enjoy hearing other. I will never forget Listener Magazine, which I miss terribly along with "Dr Gizmo" (I hope he really had a PhD.), publishing a letter by someone disagreeing on some circuit design scolding, "He is not an audiophile." If anybody doubts my tolerance for others' preferences for solid state, push-pull, or any other type of amplifier they are welcome to check with a Geiger counter to verify that I have no Tzar Bombas on my property ready to use to force everybody to copy my choice of amplifiers ans speakers. But back to my personal favorite, the SET is my favorite, but my favorite speaker design is the magnetic planar with quasi ribbons (true ribbons are too delicate and stretch if they are exposed to a slight wind) for their simplicity circumventing the enormous challenges of cone speakers, their uneven inductive reactance at different frequencies which are effected by back EMF vs mechanical properties of the surround and cone material, elaborate crossover circuits, and the kind of bracing the box requires to prevent the box from adding noise. But the usual SET is not powerful enough to drive insensitive planar magnetic speakers so an 833-A and a Hammond 1642SE output transformer is not that hard or expensive to make your own. You can drive the grid with a headphone amplifier with several hundred ohms transformer output impedance with zero grid bias, i.e. grid through transformer output winding to ground and 1000 Volts to the 833-A anode. Purists prefer the SET to sensitive horn speakers and I have no doubt this too produces a wonderful sound. Such purists compare those who use radio station transmitter tube with insensitive speakers to the Vikings, but most folks in the United States have Viking ancestors anyway.
Hello Eric, I have been getting interested in Linn products of late. I have become interested in Linn's Klimax Solo 500's of late. I was wondering if you or anyone else has had experience with this set of mono blocks?
I’m not a favorite of Class D: to clinical, are detailfull, but i miss that “whaw”-feelings. Not so holographic, miss the spatial atmosphere. The best American amp.is Jeff Rowland :nothing sounds better. European: Ear!! (The best natural sound !!) Hegel , Audio Note, Leema ,Gato , GamuT ,Electrocompagniet , Nagra. Asian: Luxman and Esoteric.
My favorite ARC equipment was the SP10 preamp and the Classic 60 amps (the latter I owned). They are sweet sounding, colored for today's sound but soooo musical sounding. Then came the sterile sounding equipment for about 20 years. I still prefer the Classic 60s to the current 75 se amp. I've moved on in 2005 to more refined and resolving tube amps with twice the power and lower heat.
Then came the sterile sounding equipment for about 20 years.
Interesting indeed!! I thought when I heard ARC for the first time that the sterile sound was what they always had. I did not realize it had already changed.
The pendulum does seem to have swung back a little.
I compared multiple pre-amps at a store set up with identical equipment. The SP-10 (unknown which of the 7 versions) was the biggest (wide and deep soundstage), most detailed and large sounding. The SP-8 was about 60-70% of that sound. The top of the line (unknown model) Conrad Johnson preamp was mushy sounding, very warm and not detailed, typical of it's type in the 1980s. Several other lesser pre-amps were not in ARs league but sounded clearer than the CJ. The SP-10 reminded me of the top Fisher pre-amp, I think it was the CX-2 400. I shouldn't have sold it.
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