I recently got to hear a VPI scout with an aluminum platter and various platter mats. I am having a hard time trying to understand where the fascination with aluminum is coming from. The acrylic sounds far better. Its not even close to my ears. Is it that some people just never heard the scout with the acrylic platter? I would strongly encourage anyone who is looking for a used scout with an acrylic platter to really take a good look at it. It sounds much more like real music and for what these used scouts are going for, they are an incredible value. Maybe its just system/cartridge synergy. I actually thing the scout with the acrylic platter sounds just as good if not better and quieter than the classic with the aluminum platter. The scout sounds more like an older Aries than the Classic does. The advantage of the classic is the longer arm but I mean for many people, I am not sure you can do much better table than the scout with the acrylic platter for anywhere near to what they go for used and I would say they you could look at tables costing much more and still not get the music satisfaction in many ways that the scout accomplishes. They just seem to portray the musical experience in a way that sounds right. Aries and scoutmasters with acrylic have to sound killer. The only platter that is as good that VPI made are there lead and hybrid metal aluminum/acrylic platter tables. I think VPI is going in the wrong direction with aluminum. To me the disadvantages far outweigh the benefits. Others may disagree but if you find scout w/acrylic for a good deal, I would be all over it. Sometimes you just don't know what ya have so I will probably hang on to mine for a while.
Same tonearm? Same cartridge? Same downstream amplification? Same speakers? Same LPs? Same etc?
Also, you say you used "various platter mats". In my experience, the platter mat makes a more dramatic difference in sonics than does the material of which the platter is made. This does not surprise me, since the LP is in contact with the mat, not the platter.
Yes, but the OP inserts a platter mat between the LP and the platter. Platter mats make a big difference, like adding salt and pepper to your food, regardless of the nature of the platter. Moreover, nearly all turntables have platters made of some sort of metal, yet the "sound" of the mat can easily be heard. And while I tend to agree with the idea that you want good coupling of energy into the mat, there is a school of thought that favors isolating the LP in space (e.g., the Resomat and the old Transcriptors platter), which has its fans as well. What a hobby! Or, what? A hobby?
For what it's worth, I have not liked acrylic mats or platters in the past, but probably that's just me. The only platter per se that meets your criterion pretty well, Ralph, is one of the several options offered by Thom Mackris on his Galibier turntables. It may be made of Delrin, but I cannot recall.
Nandric, Try getting loaded on slivovitz instead of acrylic. Acrylic is bad for the liver.
@tzh21y The best platters that VPI made were the lead ones. They had to stop making them due to the new environmental laws ( no lead) 20 years ago. VPI claims that these were better than all the others!
FWIW the original VPI platter was aluminum with a lead insert. When that was replaced on the same turntable with acrylic, also with a lead insert, the review in the (then honest) Absolute Sound said that the original aluminum was clearly awful and that the table really came alive with the acrylic/lead platter. I can personally vouch for the improvement. So acrylic/lead platters became the mainstay of VPI through the early TNT days. The original TNT platter is a great platter and I still use one on my much modified TNT. Lead, by the way, is a perfect substance for that use, not only heavy, but acoustically dead. Try ringing a bell made out of lead!
Eventually, said to be due to environmental concerns, VPI replaced the lead inserts with various metals under the acrylic. Later there were also acrylic platters with no metal. And then the return of the Super Platter: acrylic and steel. Some of the more expensive tables in audio still use an acrylic, or other close plastic material, for the platter.
When VPI went back to aluminum, I was kind of shocked given the history. Back to the future. From all I have been able to gather this was clearly a move simply to lower the cost of production. Apparently high quality acrylic was getting more expensive, and aluminum is cheap and easier to fabricate into platters. As in the original aluminum days, users are scrambling for platter mats of all kinds. And they should.
I have experienced the difference and would never change my platter for the aluminum one.
We tried different mats and even though they did make a difference, not always better, it just seemed that some frequencies were still affected by what must be the aluminum. We both came to the conclusion that the Aluminum platter is just not giving us the benefits we hoped for. Just could not get away from the overly energized platter. Too much energy. I guess what I am saying is the Acrylic platter VPIs are really good. Considering what you can get them for it is a steal. I have heard the lead and acrylic mix platters that melm spoke about and he is right, no question, no doubt.
Atmasphere said: A correct platter pad will have the same hardness as vinyl so that any vibration from the LP can be absorbed.
Aluminum and any metal for that matter is far too hard.
Acrylic is too, but obviously less so than metal. IME, the harder the material, the more issues with high frequencies.
To expand on Ralph’s comments, you’re trying to absorb and transmit spurious vibrations away from the stylus tracking the groove so they don’t reflect back into the cantilever/motor assembly of the cartridge. The key to this lies in matching the speed of sound of the two materials (platter surface and record).
Our plain-Jane, PVC platter did this extremely well (the “V” in PVC stands for vinyl), but the market was fascinated with flame polished acrylic. The PVC was as much of a technical success as it was a commercial flop. And so it goes …
Now, you can work with aluminum but it gets tricky. In an after-market context, you can try playing with mats, but it will be a long, bumpy road (or … you might get lucky on the first try).
The key in working with materials that don't interface well with records (from a vibration transmission perspective) is to do this in stages - starting with an ideal platter surface, and working through intermediate material transitions,.
This is how we approached our composite (Gavia and Stelvio) platters.
Lew said: For what it’s worth, I have not liked acrylic mats or platters in the past, but probably that’s just me. The only platter per se that meets your criterion pretty well, Ralph, is one of the several options offered by Thom Mackris on his Galibier turntables. It may be made of Delrin, but I cannot recall.
Top to bottom, the platters are carbon fiber, PVC (for the Gavia Platter) / Brass (Stelvio Platter - 14 Lbs. worth of it), and aluminum, along with damping chambers in the aluminum.
So, if I’m looking for a lead-acrylic VPI table with a 12-inch transcription arm, what models am I searching for?
Are there others that represent great performance at a similar price point? I do like the idea of delrin or olefin as a platter material, especially with a lead or similar outer ring for a flywheel effect. ------
If I could have any turntable right now, it would be a Townshend Rock 7 with the white (delrin?) platter and the wild damping trough for the cartridge/arm. I love the idea of an arm that resists side to side waggle and therefore allows the cantilever to capture the full swing of bass movements. Granted, you would absolutely have to redrill any off-center albums or the wow/flutter would be off the charts. Come to think of it, that trough would be child's play to 3D print. hmm...
engineears---No need to redrill off-center LP holes for the Townshend trough; the side-to-side movement of the arm/cartridge is at a low enough frequency to be unaffected by the damping fluid in the trough. The fluid’s viscosity was chosen to allow for slow (low frequency) movement, but prevent rapid (higher frequency). The same is true of the goo in the bearing well of the Well Tempered Arm. The Townshend trough, by the way, was offered separately by Max in the 1990’s, for installation of tables other than his. I have one I’m going to mount on a VPI.
according to my friend, where VPI has made improvements is in their Pivot bearing. He said it is different than earlier models and is a large improvement. He lent it to me to listen to with the the newer stainless arm. he said that the scout with the acrylic platter and the Newer arm and bearing is the scout to have.
Dear tzh, Did we (the peanut gallery) ever find out whether your various comparisons were made with all other elements of the signal path held constant, or not?
Dear Thom, My apologies for my error in guessing at the materials used to make your Gavia platter. PVC not Delrin. PVC is probably better than Delrin for matching the energy transfer to that of vinyl, because it IS vinyl. Did you ever consider selling platters per se, for use with other brands of turntable? PVC platters could become quite popular as an aftermarket add-on to a VPI or SOTA, for example. I could foresee legal issues, however. But on the other hand, many aftermarket suppliers sell platter mats intended to replace OEM mats.
Has Walker Audio ceased to use lead for their Proscenium turntables? That is or was the biggest baddest lead platter in the business.
"The best platters that VPI made were the lead ones. They had to stop making them due to the new environmental laws ( no lead) 20 years ago. VPI claims that these were better than all the others!"
I don't think the disappearance of lead from VPI products was due to any law. Lead is still used in modern production and can be used safely given proper precautions. It was a decision of VPI, which they stated at the time to be out of environmental concern. Given their record of cost cutting, I'm not so sure.
"
according to my friend, where VPI has made improvements is in their Pivot bearing. He said it is different than earlier models and is a large improvement."
Which "improvement" do you mean? Was it something subsequent to the change to the inverted bearing? By the way, is that generally regarded as an improvement?
I am looking at it right now. It is different. looks like it is machined different. also the bottom of the base is thicker. I do not have time to listen right now and set up. I will listen later and comment.
Sorry I appeared so dismissive. Not my best moment.
But people sell modifications for other peoples products all the time. Look as what Modwright does to an Oppo for ex. Or, as applied to VPI, look what Phoenix Engineering did, clearly out-engineering VPI at its own game.
Dear Thom, My apologies for my error in guessing at the materials used to make your Gavia platter. PVC not Delrin. PVC is probably better than Delrin for matching the energy transfer to that of vinyl, because it IS vinyl. Did you ever consider selling platters per se, for use with other brands of turntable? PVC platters could become quite popular as an aftermarket add-on to a VPI or SOTA, for example. I could foresee legal issues, however. But on the other hand, many aftermarket suppliers sell platter mats intended to replace OEM mats.
Hi Lew,
I have trouble keeping this straight sometimes ;-) The PVC layer (in the Gavia platter) and brass layer (Stelvio platter) are hidden under the carbon fiber top plate. The efficacy of a carbon top layer was surprising to me (first employing graphite, then carbon fiber). Frankly, I never expected the brass layer to work, but obviously the staged material transition I referenced above works with these materials.
As I began to compose this reply, I started thinking about what it would take to do aftermarket platters - whether solid PVC or the more exotic ones. I was seriously pondering some sort of shared-risk group venture with a few willing VPI owners.
Three key challenges would be (1) developing a reliable QC process. (2) Individually matching platters to bearings and (3) possible changes to the mass equation.
My current QC process involves everything that's released from the shop being auditioned with real music (after measurements are taken). Perhaps this isn't an issue - as long as the platter/bearing set meets the runout (eccentricity) specification.
With respect to bearing/platter matching, my current production flow begins with bearings that are initially oversized by a few thousandths (at the bearing platter interface). After the platters are complete, the bearings are individually trimmed to match each platter.
For an aftermarket scenario, I'd have to reverse this process by matching platters to existing bearings. I believe this is possible to do while leaving the platter on the end mill. Removing the platter before completion could add significant production time, but more importantly, it could compromise the runout - the eccentricity of the platter perimeter with respect to the platter/bearing center.
With respect to the mass equation, turntables (for how few parts they have) are complex, interactive beasts. For all I know, VPI has tuned their drive system to specific platter masses and a change to PVC or a composite platter could upset everything.
well it definitely tracks better. Sounds more controlled. May be less air than the original. not sure. The big plus is the tracking. Tracks fantastic compared to the original.
I think the VPI Scout, scoutmaster, aries, tnt etc. could be a good platform for aftermarket platters. They are very sound designs. now with this newer arm on the scout, you can definitely use moving coil, no problem. I know VPI recommends mostly moving magnet with their newer scout but I have to say I think the newer stainless jmw 9 is worthy of better.
" VPI has tuned their drive system to specific platter masses and a change to PVC or a composite platter could upset everything."
I have not kept up with the most current offerings, but the original Hurst motor that VPI used (whether 600 or 300 rpm) has been used with their platters from less than 10 pounds to well over 20 pounds with and without VERY heavy flywheel accessories, with and without a 7 pound peripheral weight and heavy center weight and with oils of dramatically different viscosity. Hard to see why it could not drive virtually anything.
Too bad (for a third party platter) that VPI gave up its non-inverted bearing. For then the platter’s center bore was all the way through and not as critical since it fit loosely over the bearing, but held tight by a small O-ring.
As I hinted above I personally think the old bearing is superior as it permits a constant oil bath, and is far easier to work on if needed or desired. I believe the newer inverted bearing is cheaper for them to produce.
I did not like the sound of the aluminum platter (Classic) sans mat. I am using a Herbie's Audio Lab Way Excellent II which to my ears sounds way better than with no mat. I've gone back and forth a few times and this has confirmed my preference.
The new aluminum plate uses the non inverted bearing. Not sure if it could be damped better. I am talking about the scout aluminum platter, not the Classic. maybe a different mat? we tried cork, felt, sorbothane... any recommendations? With these mates, we could just not get rid of the hard sound especially at certain frequencies. The acrylic works much better and you place the record directly on it
I use a 4" thick solid aluminum platter and really like it. I haven't tried a 4" pvc platter mostly due to they seem to be hard to find in that thickness. I agree with Lew that the mat makes a big difference. I've tried several and in my experience it depends on the clamp or weight used with it that can make or break an improvement. I like the music hall with a clamp or a heavy weight with the moo mat. The music hall mat sounds best with my clearaudio cartidge, while the moo mat sounds best with the denon. Just my experience.
"The new aluminum plate uses the non inverted bearing." This appears to be true on the newer, less expensive, TTs with the thinner platters. "Platter rotates on an oil bath bearing" Likely too thin to house the inverted bearing. IIRC it's also true of the lower bearing in the very expensive magnetic drive platter, likely for the same reason.
For whatever it may be worth, I remember distinctly while deep in VPI upgrade madness years ago that HW felt very strongly that the very best platter for the HW19 was the aluminum platter. Which brings me to viridian’s comment about the importance of platter weight and not just the material used when making comparisons. Having gone through every platter VPI made for the various versions of the HW19 and then the TNT I was always left with the impression that it was the improvement in speed stability due to the heavier platters’ greater rotational inertia that made the most significant improvement regardless of material used.
The only thing we noticed was during demanding musical interludes, the aluminum platter seemed to drive through pretty clearly. Not sure as it could be the better arm as well. The only thing is everything sounded like metal and some midrange and upper frequencies were just unbearable. Music should not be an assault on the ears.
Arguably, the best record mat is: http://hifigem.com/rcc-record-mat.html by George Merrill. Not expensive and accomplishes the task. Don't worry what it is sitting on.
"For whatever it may be worth, I remember distinctly while deep in VPI upgrade madness years ago that HW felt very strongly that the very best platter for the HW19 was the aluminum platter. . . . I was always left with the impression that it was the improvement in speed stability due to the heavier platters’ greater rotational inertia that made the most significant improvement regardless of material used."
HW, who has always been VPI’s marketeer-in-chief has said many things in favor of the aluminum platter as that is the platter VPI sells now. However he is on the public record as writing that the acrylic-lead platter is preferable (given good materials) and that the aluminum platter is "a very, very good alternative." You also have to ask why, if aluminum was better, he went to the more expensive acrylic in the first place and why the acrylic was clearly more favorably reviewed. Two platters of virtually the same weight on the same base, and the clear preference was for the acrylic-lead.
As to weight, (and I agree that flywheel matters and VPI also sells flywheels) any of these can be made heavy by way of sandwich with heavier materials, or by making the platter very thick, as VPI and a lot of others have done. It is an issue separate from the material used.
Of course that they are separate issues. The point is simply that one should be careful about making decisions about the superiority of one platter over another without considering all the variables including the rest of the system. Although I came to prefer the lead-loaded acrylic platters IN MY SYSTEMS, I can easily understand why someone else might find the tonal signature of an aluminum platter to be preferable in a different system.
I have the Superplatter which I like alot. I heard that VPI's contractor had trouble machining the Superplatter to allow for proper rotational speed and stability. But mine works just fine.
perazzi28, Thanks for the lead on the table mat. I've used lead mats in the past & didn't care for them. I do like the materials he is using on that one though.
Just keep in mind folks, that when you’re ascribing characteristics to a material (whether it be acrylic, PVC or aluminum), making an apples to apples comparison is difficult to do if you’re comparing platters of identical dimensions.
You won’t know if the differences your hearing relate to the mass difference or the material’s sonic characteristics.
Higher mass may a sonic effect with respect to how the bearing’s thrust interface is loaded (for better or worse, and affecting energy transmission).
More importantly, higher mass will in general, smooth out the drive system’s speed characteristics, and you "hear" the effects of speed instability in ways that are much more subtle than pitch stability, wow and flutter, etc. At it’s finest level of granularity, micro levels of speed instability are experienced as IM distortion.
Looking at it from the other side (improving these micro-instabilities), you'll get a cleaner rendering of high frequencies, as well as more extended highs and (surprising to
many) a richer harmonic presentation in note fundamentals (think bowed double bass and
cello).
If you have the time, wade through the first page of Moncrief’s review of the Rockport Sirius III on IAR. Moncrief is a strange dude, but he lays out the situation fairly clearly in this regard (albeit in a very wordy manner). At a minimum, it will cure your insomnia ;-)
Having said all of this (in the VPI universe) you’re obviously left with the decision as to whether platter "A" works better for you than platter "B". I didn’t mean to imply otherwise. Just be careful about generalizing your conclusions with respect to materials.
I have a Superscoutmaster that came with the Superplatter. It was a revelation when I changed to the Classic platter.... The Super sounded slow, and turgid....certainly reduced highs with rolled lows..smaller sound stage, all wrong. I thought it was wonderful at the time until I changed. The reason for the change was that mine wasn't perfectly round, so when I upgraded to the rim drive, the out-of-roundness pushed against the rotating plate which rocked the arm. I fixed that by using soft feet under the motor, and spikes under the turntable. The motor went out and in, but the turntable remained solid.
Fantastic post by thom-mackris and a much more elegant and thorough way of explaining what I tried to suggest. Every effort to improve the speed stability of my turntable via the replacement of the rubber belt with string, better motor controller and even the correct (better) bearing lubricant has not only improved timing related issues, but has also (and surprisingly) improved soundstaging, stability of images, bass definition and overall purity of sound; improvements that could mistakenly be attributed to the different platter material.
+1 Frogman, I just installed a VPI Analog Drive System into my system this week & am hearing all of the improvements you listed above. Much more profound than expected.
Actually I think they moved to aluminum to save money. Acrylic was more difficult as I have read. It really is personal preference. It also may have to do with the actual mass of the aluminum. I think the key is finding the right mat. However, with acrylic you do not need one and the mids are just wonderful as well as highs. Sounds more like real music without a doubt to these ears. The aluminum may have allowed for slightly blacker backgrounds and that is debatable. I like the presentation off of the acrylic. Its not as forward sounding, more relaxed and far easier to listen to. I always thought the aries was the best effort by VPI and the scout with acrylic is the closest I have heard to that sound.
I owned a VPI HW MK II for 30 years. I decided to upgrade and called VPI to find out why the changes in design philosophy: belt vs direct, acrylic vs aluminum etc.
HW himself got in the phone and said - to his credit - don’t waste money buying a classic etc. instead, just upgrade my II to a IV and my table will be as good or better than anything out there.
He also said they stopped making the HWs because of laws against the lead and because they are too expensive to make today. This from a guy who now makes a table in excess of $20K...
i dont use mats. I just clamp the LP down to the platter, as was designed to be done.
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