Aging ears and Nuances

I am 77 years old.  I can't hear like I used to be able to, but like you, I can still hear some things.  My hearing extends out to 12-13 kHz, it varies a bit day to day.  In fact there is precious little music above 10 kHz, or even less.  It is really more a question of how disciplined you are in how you listen.

I’m 72,  I hear soundstage and instruments texture just fine. I gave up on listening to small differences in components years ago. It became completely unnecessary to enjoying the music. The advent of streaming has been  one my many joys in retirement. 
Rich

I am 73 and have found no reduction in my ability to characterize and discern nuances in high end systems. Overly trebly, hard and distorted high frequency bother me as much as ever.  

All the nuances of the midrange are still there. I know my high frequency hearing is not as good as it used to be, but my experience listening seems to have made up for it. When I listen with younger folks, our observations are the same as we compare notes. Also, high frequencies affect lower frequencies, so if you get them wrong the overall sound is negatively affected. 

I also get to listen to different systems... some of lower quality and some of higher quality... and of different character. The differences are instantly obvious. 

I believe all of you. However, one sign of agedness among some of the faithful gathered hereabouts manifests in our tendency to repeatedly hash over old arguments like a bunch of old duffers sitting around the pickle barrel in the general store. Wouldn't have it any other way. Sometimes if an old argument is sampled daily for centuries it can turn into something magnificent to behold - something entirely unexpected.

According to the VA I have lost a bit at both ends of the spectrum. Nothing too bad. 
My problem is not what I cannot hear. It is what I do hear. 
All that said being in my 70’s with a myriad of issues I had to downsize to equipment I can physically handle. Moving around 100 pound amps and speakers is simply no longer an option. 
A word of advice… please do not ever tear your quad tendon off the bone. 

My high frequency hearing isn't as good as it was when I was young, but I can still hear the most critical music ranges quite well.  In my 60s, even with less than youthful hearing I am a more experienced and patient listener and am more adept at identifying nuance and subtle changes than when I was young.  

There is an awful lot more to music reproduction than high frequency bandwidth.  In my experience you can enjoy quality music reproduction and hear subtle component differences as you age despite a gradual loss of high frequency hearing.

As other posters have noted, with experience you also learn to be a better listener.

I believe our brains retain the experiences of listening in our younger years and "fill in" the missing frequency information even when our ears no longer detect them. We know what full range music sounds like and that knowledge is recalled by the overall sound such that we don't notice the missing frequencies.

At 75 even more capable to detecting nuance on a good system at least in base, mid and much of highs. One thing that I think has happened with age is an ever-increasing sensitivity to distortion. This happens in music systems but also on TV, movies, and loud places such as restaurants. Much if it is but sub-liminal, but if you want to know if your system is clean and clear, natural, un-electronic ask an old duffer.

I'm 74 and have worn hearing aids for the past 20 years or so; main problem was loss of high-frequencies; being hard-of-hearing runs in the family. As mashif says, our brains 'fill in' missing info, and hearing aids with audiologists setting the EQ, just make it that much easier for my brain to do so. I can even do a little EQ adjustment myself on them. 

Dear Mashif, being a medical specialist in ENT, You are so right! We have a "musical memory". You need to have listened for several years to for example acusic music to learn to rember the special spectrum of frequences that identify each instrument. When you get older and start to loose the upper frequences, your brain only need to hear the caracteristics of a part of the full spectrum of a special instrument to recognise it and fill in the missing frequences. This is natures way of letting us enjoy our music up through our age. Electronic music however can vary in so many ways making it much more difficult to find a special spectrum of freqwuences for the "instrument"to remember.

You also need to deal with these facts when judging the HiFi reviews from eldery experienced HiFi experts. Are they really hearing all frequences or is the brain adding more or less...?

Dear Mashif, being a medical specialist in ENT, You are so right! We have a "musical memory". You need to have listened for several years to for example acusic music to learn to rember the special spectrum of frequences that identify each instrument. When you get older and start to loose the upper frequences, your brain only need to hear the caracteristics of a part of the full spectrum of a special instrument to recognise it and fill in the missing frequences. This is natures way of letting us enjoy our music up through our age. Electronic music however can vary in so many ways making it much more difficult to find a special spectrum of freqwuences for the "instrument"to remember.

You also need to deal with these facts when judging the HiFi reviews from eldery experienced HiFi experts. Are they really hearing all frequences or is the brain adding more or less...?

This is all very interesting and encouraging for a 70 year old with high-frequency hearing loss who wears hearing aids and who just invested in new speakers to be delivered soon. I debated for quite a while while auditioning speakers, wondering if my ears were worth the investment. I decided to they are because I listen a lot and this is great reinforcement. Thanks!

As a 73 year old with hearing aids, I thankfully continue to be able to hear nuances in sound and changes in my system. I recently made 2 seemingly minor changes (moved my router, upgraded my USB cable). Each provided improved clarity, soundstage & micro dynamics. My personal opinion is that many of us can improve our musical enjoyment by investing in high quality hearing aids. 

Well ,I'm 73xand yes my hearing isn't great anymore.But these people who are listening to the music with head phones on are NUTS....I went to alot of concerts when I was younger back when you ,bought your tickets for show at stores that had tickets master...I would get middle center or front row...alot...Get my ears,blasted out.There take the NYC transit Subways...whi h are at times freaking loud.Then go home and put your headphones on and blast your hearing out again...these young people of today will really loose there hearing early...they always have head phones or ear plugs in...I say hello when I pass as I go walking .Alot if the time. .they don't hear you...come on....if you have headphones...Don't use them. People don't use them,thats really killing your hearing.

I have a great headphone system so I guess I'm nuts, and very happy to be that way.

But my amps are the kind with volume control and I do not have to play them at max volume.

I stick between 60 and 70 dB for speakers and for my headphones. 

Excellent quality hearing aids need not be extremely expensive, either. The ones they sell at Costco are the top-of-the-range models from the previous year, and are about $1500/pair. I used to get ones that cost $6000/pair, but my Jabra ones from Costco are at least as good as those. 

I feel I can still appreciate the nuances and I remain "picky" though very happy with my system(s)...though my sonic and musical preferences has changed somewhat...

@limomangus 

Certainly a good warning. Excellent thought. 

However, the volume on headphones and earbuds is adjustable. Blasting not required. I literally spent thousands of hours listening to headphones as a geologist in the '70s driving for eight or more hours a day, then traveling as an executive for decades and have not had my hearing damaged by them. Concerts were probably the worst. 

One nice feature of today's Apple products like ear buds and watch is they monitor noise and music levels and alert you to potentially damaging levels. A real positive. 

Good for you ghd....it's like walking...everyone has ear plugs or head phones on...I like just walk take in the sites and sounds....enjoy your walk don't make it a job or a chore.....that's my feeling....but yes loud concerts,then riding on the nyc subways....your friends would talk to you and your thinking....What,your ears are like dead....lol.take care my man....

This is a good question. I have hearing loss from being too close to a bank of JBLs at a rave 30+ years ago, and tinnitus. I’m 61.

Standard hearing tests go to 8kHz - so how are you and @billstevenson getting tested to 13.5K? (tagging jourdoktorn on this question too)

I’ve just trialed "the best" hearing aids from hear.com, the Horizon IX at $6K. 100% online/remote service. I found they worked surprisingly good listening to music using "open domes" which pass through the maximum amount of natural external sound.

They promised the world in both technology and customer service which is how they justified the premium price, and failed miserably in the first 21 days of my 45 day trial.

Unhappy with the cost and service, I found out the major player is WSA and they own Horizon, Signia (formerly Siemens) and others, as well as online businesses INCLUDING hear.com.

Next I ended up at Hear USA, had another test but this time in a booth, and got a quote for $4800 for the Signia BCT IX, which supersedes the Horizon IX.

Still unhappy with the price for what I know costs about $300 or less to make, I ended up with directhearing.com and have the Signia BCT arriving on Monday programmed with my free audiogram from Hear USA for $2700 with 12 months no interest financing and 3 years of free adjustments and supplies. 

But no, I’m not missing details or nuances in music, maybe just a bit of the higher frequency info, but my hearing loss isn’t the usual age-related high frequency loss, I have more midrange loss from the trauma - so for speech I struggle with soft voices and soft words (vowels) but I designed my system to be very good in the mid range.

@larsman 

The ones they sell at Costco are the top-of-the-range models from the previous year, and are about $1500/pair.

Maybe, but they sell a limited selection of Rx brands, none of which are considered state of the art. Not saying they wont do the job though. 

I did consider Costco, but I gave them a pass when I spoke to someone in the hearing aid department of my local store though.

We are willing to spend multiple $K on a single component within our 10’s or 100’s $K systems. That entire expenditure funnels through your ears with or without hearing aids. If buying hearing aids, buy the best, it only makes sense. 

2 more things:

1. Try to find an audiologist that specializes in music. While there are none in my area, most major cities will have them. 
2. Have your audiologist create a specific music program. While most HA’s have this, mine was not optimized.
Per chatGPT: Ask Your Audiologist for a Dedicated “Audiophile/Music” Program. Request a custom program with these adjustments:

I’m 66 years old with a significant loss of hearing in the high frequencies. I have an excellent Audiologist that has helped me with getting fully programmable hearing aids with frequency corrections tailored to my specific hearing loss.  The Oticon aids also provide several programs to adjust to different listening environments including listening to music.  I still can enjoy critical listening sessions which is very important to me.  Highly recommend you find a quality Audiologist to assist you and never go cheap with your hearing.

@signaforce 

Have your audiologist create a specific music program

This is good advice. Check that your provider knows how to optimize a program for recorded music program and can tweak it as needed, for example after your brain gets used to the new device.

You can also use different domes. You might find a closed or partially closed dome is better for social situations or TV, and open is better for music.

At Costco, for an extra $60, you can get custom molded earpieces instead of domes. 

78 year old here. I certainly  have modest hearing loss & slight tinnitus in my left ear. I have taken advantage of the increased excellence in headphone listening. With top notch gear I can hear nuance, tonal shades, and spatial qualities. Headphone listening is a benefit for us old guys with loss of hearing acuity.

Dear Mashif, being a medical specialist in ENT, You are so right! We have a "musical memory". You need to have listened for several years to for example acusic music to learn to rember the special spectrum of frequences that identify each instrument. When you get older and start to loose the upper frequences, your brain only need to hear the caracteristics of a part of the full spectrum of a special instrument to recognise it and fill in the missing frequences. This is natures way of letting us enjoy our music up through our age. Electronic music however can vary in so many ways making it much more difficult to find a special spectrum of freqwuences for the "instrument"to remember.

You also need to deal with these facts when judging the HiFi reviews from eldery experienced HiFi experts. Are they really hearing all frequences or is the brain adding more or less...?

"To macg19.

Standard hearing tests go to 8kHz - so how are you and @billstevenson getting tested to 13.5K? (tagging jourdoktorn on this question too)"

In our clinic we only use audiometers from 250 Hz to 8 KHz but in my research I use professional instruments from 50 to 20.000 Hz.

Interesting discussion.  I am 66 and feel I am only getting better at listening to and distinguishing subtle differences in music and music reproduction systems even as my hearing acuity in general has declined some - evidenced by greater difficulty following conversations in noisy echoing environments.   This both due to greater experience and the fact that the spectrum of most reproduced music occurs below 10kHz.  Only violins and cymbals extend much above 10kHz for acoustic instruments.  The bulk of the important information is in the midrange, and if timing is your thing - it’s all there.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3088642/

kn

PS - plus one for using care with headphone volume levels.

@jourdoktorn Thanks.

"Sounds good enough" gets tossed around a bunch in my listening room nowadays. Just turned 60, hearing up to about 13K, and the mundane idiotic minutia of minute differences in sound quality (which used to get my pecker up) bore me to tears anymore.

But I still love the hell out of music and enjoy it the same, which is good.

 @rankaudio   If your friend has been subjected to a lot of loud noise all their life, and has some serious loss of sound, then maybe, but loss of upper frequencies and nuances, um, maybe he's just tired of dealing with equipment, or was not as hardcore an audiophile as you thought.  Or, perhaps other things in his life may take precedence over stereo equipment.  I could see that.