I think we all understand there is no “perfect” speaker. Strengths, weaknesses, compromises all driven by the designer’s objectives and decisions.
Whenever we make a new (to us) speaker purchase there is a honeymoon period with the perfect-to-us speaker. But as time wears on, we either become accustomed to the faults and don’t really hear or hear past them, or become amplified and perhaps more annoying or create minor buyers remorse or wanderlust.
I am guessing the latter would be more prevalent when transitioning to a very different design topology, eg cones vs horns vs planars etc.
While I’ve experimented with horns, single drivers, subwoofer augmentation … I’ve always returned to full range dynamic multi-driver designs. About to do so with planars but on a scale I’ve not done before, and heading toward end game system in retirement.
So I just wonder what your experiences have been once the initial thrill is gone? (Especially if you moved from boxes to planars)
A long time ago I was at Singer Sound listening to “stuff” and kibitzing with the sales guy. Might have been the estimable Mr Guttenberg. I listened to the very expensive, at the time, ML (CLS model). A solo piano record was played and I was stunned. It sounded like the piano was in that room with us. A musician myself, I know from piano sound.
This was followed by my request for some rock. I believe it was a Stones record and what immediately struck me was how not so good it sounded. The speaker just couldn’t deliver the immediacy and clarity I was expecting.
I also lived through what I call the “boom and sizzle” period where many speakers were voiced to deliver earth shaking bass and “sparkly” highs. Little mid range. If it was there it was obscured by the high low emphasis. These could be very impressive at first listen. Wow listen to those cymbals that bass!
I settled in with a pair of Snell Type D’s. Due to room changes I moved onto Revel M20’s (Stereophile class A …lol) on stands. I still listen to them. Classical, Jazz to Rock to EDM.
I sit pretty near field. They “handle” every musical style. Getting the timbre the rhythm and pacing, the palpable force of the instruments/music.
I firmly believe that amplifier/speaker/room are critical. There are trade offs. I can’t expect the same volume and sound pressure delivery of the Philharmonic, A jazz trio, a Stones concert or a rave. I get the basics of good sound/music reproduction.
@inscrutable, If the thrill is gone you bought the wrong speaker. I have done that at least 20 times. I start hearing the problems and then run into ones I can't fix. If I can't live with those problems the speaker goes.
I have been through every type of speaker you can imagine. The two most frustrating where the Magnepan Tympani IIIs and the Apogee Divas. Both speakers were at once compelling and fatally flawed. To put it in perspective I have not owned a boxed speaker since the late 70s. The last ones were Allison 1s. As I became more convinced that the single biggest problem with sound was the room you were trying to make it in I became more enamored with the acoustic advantages of line source dipoles and have not owned anything but since those Allisons. I now own Sound Labs 645-8s and the thrill will never be gone. Every time I turn them on I am in wonder. I honestly do not believe there is a better speaker for me or for anyone for that matter. It is not that they are perfect, they are not but, the problems they do have are easily overcome and the end result is you are no longer listening to the room or the loudspeaker. It is almost if they do not exist.
@jjss49 ya know, tried to update the other day and didn’t see how without creating a new one. Will have to look again. [edit: just updated]
Two equipment updates … set up my VPI Classic 1 w/SoundSmith Zephyr MIMC Star through Lehmann Black Cube SE (that’s probably next on list, leaning to SoundSmith MCP-2 MkII) and Marantz SA-KI Ruby. The Plinius was completely refreshed and power supply boosted a bit by Ralph Abramo (Vince Galbo successor).
Have not yet done anything to the room. Been preoccupied with health issues and getting my work/woodshop set up.
which maggies? you certainly have good gear... definitely get the room and speakers set up properly... doesn’t seem to me new conventional driver speakers should be on the radar for you given the other priorities
which maggies? you certainly have good gear... definitely get the room and speakers set up properly... doesn’t seem to me new conventional driver speakers should be on the radar for you given the other priorities
good health comfy house and home first!
good luck
Thanks.
I’ve been thinking 1.7i, but debating with myself about biting the bullet “buy once, cry once” and get the 3.7i. Will be listening to both in a few weeks, and if the immediacy/dynamics aren’t as disappointing as they have been for some/others, will pick one and move on
There's a lot to be said for Magnepans, however, in my limited experience, subs make all the difference. I'm running 3.7i's with a pair of Rythmik F12 subs w/ XLR3 "plate amplifier" and the Rythmiks were fairly easy to integrate.
The difference was not subtle. I went from being able to hear the bass to actually feeling it. It added a texture that is hard for me to put into words. The bass really isn't really obvious, however, until I turn it off -- if that makes any sense at all.
I added the subs one at a time about six weeks apart. The first sub was impressive, adding a second was an even bigger improvement and not just by double.
Of course, that's with my ears, my room, my system. ymmv.
But never forgot the “decade of joy” I had in the ‘90s with Quad ESL 57s.
Then Kent McCollum of Electrostatic Solutions came to the fore as the preeminent 57 rebuilder. Among other significant differences is that the Mylar he uses in 2 microns instead of 13 microns. They play louder with more bass and treble.
Now, my system is built around ESS 57s.
Couldn’t be more different. I do miss the big dynamics. But what the Quads do with voices and small scale is nothing short of magic. Records that were very good on the big dynamic speakers are now sublime.
Years ago when I lived with 57s, I ultimately wanted to hear the dynamics and sold the Quads. But they have again grabbed my ears. They draw you into the music in a way that no other speaker can, IME. Instead of the music coming at you, they draw a picture of the real thing as they pull you in. The more I hear them, the more I love them. I don’t think I have the right amp match, so bigger scale is clipping.
Am going to try a Quad 405 amp. Pretty long in the tooth, but said to be THE perfect match. Matching the 57s, he 405 rolls off the highs and limits the bass to 40-45 Hz. Which is what the 57s do.
Guess the audiophile bug again. The thrill was not really gone. I may keep the old speakers and rotate them. But laid back Quad sound does fit my music preferences.
Over the last couple of years I tried three new well regarded speaker pairs and none were as good as what I already had...so if it ain't got the "thrill" after an appropriate break in it's outta here. My current speakers have earned their place.
I must be lucky. I loved my first good speakers, ML SL3 electrostats and they were my mains (with a Velodyne) for 16 years. I loved them the whole time.
I moved into Dynaudio Sapphires and was very happy five years but I'd heard better and got very lucky as I moved into (possible end-game speakers for me) used Raidho D2 small floorstanders. Their sound, room-corrected has thrilled me for six years and I can listen to glorious rich detail with full bass for hours at a time.
I'd be wary of moving in a very different direction to buy an end-game pair. Lots of potential risk is what I suspect. I moved gradually into a speaker type and sound I really love and then got a great pair after fully understanding them.
I’ve been thinking 1.7i, but debating with myself about biting the bullet “buy once, cry once” and get the 3.7i. Will be listening to both in a few weeks, and if the immediacy/dynamics aren’t as disappointing as they have been for some/others, will pick one and move on
i just went from 1.7i to 3.7i (still have both sets, i cannot get myself to part with the 1.7i's...)
both are truly superb, i think which is better is quite room dependent - at the price of the 1.7i it is an unfathomable value for the enjoyment and quality of music it delivers, and as you know, both require specific placement for them to shine
with either, i feel nothing is lacking in the ’immediacy/dynamics’ department... but then again i am fortunate to have excellent supporting equipment/amplification
happy to talk further with you via pm if you’d like, i can share a lot of observations and pointers
I've had planars for over 25 years. First, Apogee Duetta IIs and now Magneplanar 1.7is. I can't tell you what happens when the thrill is gone because it's never left. 😁
Agree 100% - I have tried many different high end speakers and have found my holy grail with the Magico A5's paired with a B&W DB3 surrounded by tubes.
I listened to the very expensive, at the time, ML (CLS model). A solo piano record was played and I was stunned. It sounded like the piano was in that room with us.
There is magic to electrostatics - the Quads and my series 1 ML CLS reproduce acoustic music in a way that beggars the imagination. First time I was listening to the CLS my wife called and asked if I was playing the piano.
And if I ever find a usable pair of Apogee Scintillas I will add a pair of panel speakers to my menagerie (I have the amps to drive them!)
The only problem I have with falling in love with various gear is that you end up with several systems each having a particular virtue that you wouldn't want to do without.
I have Maggie 3.7i's. I have a pair of REL S/510 SHO subs. Last week one of the subs lost power and even though I had one sub working the change was dramatic. The midrange was hard and the upper range was rolled off. I hardly noticed the drop in lower registers.
I had been using a grinder without ear protection and thought I damaged my hearing, it took me a few days to stumble on the loose power cord. Presto magic again.
I did not spend time on the sub placement, one is in the back of the room and one on one side next to the outlets they are plugged into.
Maggie's need good electronics and even then I have found the more power conditioning the better.
i am listening to my AirPulse A200 on the factory stands topped with JBL 305s and a JBL 308 subwoofy.. streaming Tidal from my macPro laptop to an exterior SU8 DAC...i have been listening to this setup since about 2018 and it still puts a smile on me kisser especially with electronica... what I really need is a bigger room.
When the thrill is gone, and assuming your components and speakers are well integrated with the room, perhaps you may be listening to your hifi too much? Sometimes we need a break. Yes this is too strong a statement, but as the old saying goes; familiarity breeds contempt.
Regarding the Wavetouch; I would question the idea that the speaker is a ‘good deal’ at $9,500. You can pick up a pre-owned pair of Magicos for that. These rather rough-looking monitors would be a good to great deal at $2,500 maybe. Yes they probably sound very good, but other speakers do too. I have a pair of Evolution Acoustics Micro One that are finished to a very high standard using the best components and they most certainly do not sound veiled in the least. They are powerful, open, highly expressive and throw a staggering (for their size) soundstage with real to life scale timbres / tones and imaging. With all due respect to the gentleman demonstrating the product, to say that every other speaker sounds veiled is simply not true.
If your electronics and noise control are good you should easily hear the difference in the top end. Smoother and more refined and overall a little more relaxed midrange.
I solved this by not reading forums and dropping out of my audiophile club. I don't read blogs or reviews either. I glance at the weekly audiogon summary and will sometimes look at a conversation if the title is interesting.
Seriously, the press part is trying to sell you something and that's based on sewing discontent. The forums are all about, I don't know what actually, but the comparison and upmanship doesn't help.
I settled on a small power tube and efficient speakers because I like it for the low volumes we listen at augmented with absurdly large subs. I'm 55 and can't hear over 13 khz anyways so highs don't matter.
Stop reading this stuff and you'll find that you chill out a lot about your system. Like all social media it's a trap that makes us feel sad and poor.
I was somewhat fortunate to hear a set of speakers at a store an hour away from home. I do not have a large room but struggle when staring/listening to a small box mounted on a pedestal. The speakers in question found their ways into my listening room and I have not even thought about looking for anything else. The final touch was to move away from all solid state amplification and boy it sealed the life long desire to keep what I have. I never tire of listening to the ensemble, and neither do my friends.
System comprises:
Pro-Ject turntable (soon the be replaced with Transcriptors Hydraulic Reference)
Wolf Audio Server
T+A DAC 8 DSD
Circle Labs A200
Audiovector R3 Arreté
i have been lucky enough to find what works extremely well in my room (typically the biggest problem to solve).
The Nola KO speakers are the end game speakers for me. I had the Dahlquist Dq 10's for 30 years. Then the Qg 20's for 12 years.
i agree, carl marchisotto is one of the great designers (and nicest people) in the industry... his speakers through the various brand names and iterations were unfailingly open, sweet sounding, musical and natural sounding...
I ran various Alons for many years, loved open baffle sound qualities. Went to ported box for a couple years, couldn't get past sense of closed in sound quality. Some Klipschorns fell into my lap, wow, could hear the potential right off, sense of live performers in room unsurpassed. With extensive mods i voiced in over the years, these are my last speakers.
I’ve had my B&W 801 with custom outboard crossovers for over 50 years! Albeit it’s not my primary system, the thrill is still as I remember when I installed the crossovers 25 years ago. In fact, I enjoy them more than my recently acquired Wilson Benesch.
My wife and I have been married 52 years and she gets a strong say in the decorating department! In 2020 we had a minor fire which resulted in major redecorating of the house due to some smoke damage. She talked me into getting new speakers to replace the ones I built in 1976 at the age of 26. Too large and ugly. In 1976, after reading a couple of books on speaker building, I proceeded to build a large pair of ported speakers using 15" Altec-Lansing bass guitar woofers with horn tweeters and horn midranges. The horns were purchased from the now (long) defunct "Speakerlab" out of Seattle. I purchased a spool of 18G enameled wire (I still have the partial spool) and wound my own inductors. The crossover capacitors were surplus. A friend helped me cut the cabinets from birch plywood. They were never beautiful but they looked OK until they were used as plant stands and the tops got spoiled. Anyway, I purchased a used pair of Klipsch Forte II with upgraded crossovers as the replacement speakers. They are OK but not as good as my home-built, largeish size speakers. My listening room is now in our finished, (walk-up) attic. I saved all of the components (from the old speakers) so I could try and rebuild using a different cabinet design but unless I build them in the attic, it would be most difficult to get heavy speakers up the steep attic stairs. Anyway, for anyone considering "rolling their own", the results can be most pleasing. I do get the sense that most Audiogon members are typically not "do-it-themselvers".
To me, speakers with horn driven mid-ranges cannot be beat. As for the Altec-Lansing instrument speakers, they were always a little shy on low bass but contributed to the overall sound of what were very dynamic and beautiful sounding loudspeakers.
My second reference system (c. 1975) was Maggies and tubes (Dyna 70's). I've gone through many combinations over the years and I would still take Maggies & Tubes like I do mac & cheese: Bring It ON!
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