@laoman spot on. Why anything op? You are not gonna put a ford escort engine in a Porsche. When you get better components you tend to do them across the board. Top end speakers tend to adorn top end electronics. Anyone with an iota of common sense (maybe I’m getting old) is well aware or room acoustics/ interaction and matching speakers to a room. But when space is optimised you create the conditions to maximise component performance. Think of comparing a road car on an f1 track and and f1 car on a public road 😉 |
some people buy $50k speakers an its still not end game! just use your ears to judge, difference between $5k speaker and $20k is not that much of a difference. the difference in cost will be the name and material used to make it. If I am about to drop $30k on a pair of speakers, I'll take the B&W 801 D4. They will sound and look great to my ears and eyes. |
Congratulations on the Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC. Yeah, I know. It is amazing how it just keeps getting better. I couldn’t have pursued this for 50 years unless each step didn’t result in more than I thought possible. Every day when I go down and turn on my system and listen for a while, I just can’t believe this was possible. It is incredibly rewarding. |
Got it. I think it's just a grammar issue which could be a USA grammar issue??? psycho-acoustic"s" would be study of how we perceive sound psycho-acoustic would be used to describe one of the qualities of perceived sound. I was trying to make sure that acoustic wasn't something completely different than acoustics. In the future I'll just mentally add the "s" and we're good. |
Acoustic: physical science... And psycho-acoustic which is the science relating physical acoustic to perception evaluation and experiments... Correlation in listening experiments between objective factors in acoustic measures or with acoustic devices ( panels or any other devices) and the subjective experience... --- I used passive material treatment: I experimented with balance between reflective and absorbing and diffusive characteristic of the room... --- I used mechanical activated control of the room using Helmholtz method: H. resonators and H. diffusers... This is like a finely tunable grid set of bottles and tubes mechanically adjustable distributed at some key location in my dedicated room... My philosophy is based on the scientific fact that we do not listen to the gear but to the system/room ... My method of tuning the room consist in transforming the room accordingly to my speakers needs and to my own ears timbre perceptive ability and to other acoustical cues perceptive experience...( soundstage,imaging,dynamic,listener envelopment etc) My motto is: No upgrade could ever give the powerful transformation given by the controls over the three main dimensions related to any audio working system: mechanical, electrical and acoustical... Dont upgrade anything BEFORE embedding it rightfully... Is not clear?
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Yes I'm being a PTA but it's been bugging me so here goes. What is your definition of acoustic? If you are using it as a noun there's an "s" on the end. ADJECTIVE
NOUN
or I'm just being an Ahole but I may not be truly understanding the philosophy your trying to convey with the term. |
The items have different specs, dimensions and prices and have a different sound signature. Is the question you are asking is the difference significant? And is it worth the cost difference? If that's the question you have to answer that for yourself by listening and then determining which is the most effective use of your money. |
I can provide some actual listening impressions to address the OP's question. I have the previous-gen Monitor Audio Silver 300s and have been quite pleased with their resolution and refinement especially at their very reasonable price of $2200. When I was auditioning DACs a year ago, I had purchased a Chord Qutest that was used both at home and taken to dealers as a consistent point of reference to compare to otther DACs. I was listening to a system at a local dealer and didn't recognize the floor standing speakers that had a trapezoidal shape. The speakers sounded fine but no better or worse than my Silver 300 speakers. As it turns out, the speakers were the then-new $18.5K Wilson SabrinaX s. (or about 9x the price of my MA Silver 300 speakers) Honestly, even at the same price, I'm not sure if I would pick my MA speakers or the Wilson speakers if I were listening blindly. One caveat is that I tend to listen at fairly moderate volumes & perhaps one advantage of the Wilson speakers (and perhaps some other higher priced speakers) as others have mentioned is the ability to play loudly without distortion. In any case, that's not an attribute that is important to me. I have heard some more expensive speakers that do pique my interest. Before getting the Silver 300s, I heard a pair of used Monitor Audio Gold 200s with a pleated AMT tweeter at about the same price. Those clearly had a clearer and more resolving high frequency response as well as a level of sweetness to the sound that was clearly better than that of the Silver 300's sound. Many years ago, I heard a pair of well set up Martin Logan CLS II speakers. I think they now retail for $35k. The speed and immediacy of those speakers was eye-opening & I still remember how they sound many years later. BUT, I don't' really want a pair of giant "screens" in my room. Finally, as others have mentioned, without a decent sized room with acoustic issues sorted out, I don't think there's any point in getting ultra expensive speakers. I see pictures of people with huge floorstanding speakers costing $10k, 20k, 30k or more in 200 square foot rooms such as you might find in a New York City apartment. That just seems like an outright waste of money to me. There just isn't enough distance in some of those rooms to propagate the low frequencies that some speakers can easily produce. It's much better in my opinion to get a small precise standmount and accept that as the best fit for that size of room. |
i already said that here like you... But people are consumers not experimenters in acoustic... They bough, they dont learn how to listen anyway, and most call that a "taste" ... There is long debate about branded names value right now here... And useless debates about "tweaks"... Just to say my room cost me nothings and beat all the gear i could have upgrade to....We must learn acoustic, we dont buy it.... Because the highly tech acoustic room will cost more than any audio very costly system anyway... basic treatment and simple controls acoustic method are simple at the basis anyway...Complex to tune it asking for time listenings experiments but nothing is more fun and rewarding....Nothing...Certainly not upgrading the gear in an empty non treated and non controlled acoustical room......
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@lonemountain +1. |
The tech in a speaker is still placed inside furniture (cabinet) with the entire package placed in a room to form the "system" you hear. A great room makes a good system sound great and a bad room makes a good system sound bad, simple as that. This is universal between pro studios and home listening rooms. Microphones are the ears of a pro studio and good studio rooms make everything "record better", a direct parallel to you listening in your listening room. Spending a fortune on loudspeakers in a bad room is a bad investment. No EQ, no DSP, no speaker will deliver what a good room can- at home or studio. The future of the audiophile is investing in high performance rooms first, then place technically advanced speakers inside them with wide dynamics, wide dispersion and low distortion. Brad |
There are many more expensive speakers than the ones you mention, and if you have the money to spend, the time to listen, the difference in sound adds more enjoyment, then those more expensive speakers are the right ones for you. If you don’t like to spend money, then the cheapest speakers are right for you. In reality, it’s a combination of your wallet and diminishing returns. |
People dont know that acoustic is an experimental and pure science.. Not less sophisticated and cxomplex than electronical engineering... At best some will buy bass traps and 2 panels... 😁😊 They will call it acoustic treatment... They think that the amplifier and speaker design is what they listen to first and last ... The room is for them an almost neutral empty shell with no relation to what they hear and the room cost nothing anyway, then for them had no power to change the S.Q. compared to their shiny new costly amplifier or beautiful speakers.. This is consumerism conditioning... My system value is 500 bucks.. And my S.Q. /price ratio is over the roof because and almost ONLY because of acoustic treatment and especially acoustic control... Nothing can beat acoustic power in audio...Certainly not the speakers by themselves alone... |
I'm not into Music listening as a hobby, but there are those that are and can afford expensive sound equipment. I'm sure some will buy the high end equipment, just to say they have the best. Music lovers as a hobby and want to spend lots of $$$$, more power to them with the right room to listen in. If your happy with a $500.00 pair of speakers in a basic open room environment, that's all that counts. Will a $3000.00 pair sound any different in that environment? It's all about room acoustics in how a speaker will perform or not. Spend whatever money on your hobby and or sounds good to you. Knock yourselves out.........lol Good question, "Affordable or Ultra Expensive Speakers." Any difference based on your room environment acoustics?
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The fun is in the hunt more than the kill. I find I'm not so crazy about the new music coming out and changing up parts of my system keeps the replays fun, but getting to the top will leave me exactly where I am...The same set list on the same system!! The BIG Wilson room at Axpona is thrilling to listen to, but if I listened to it every day it would sound the same after awhile.
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djones514,512 posts 01-28-2022 5:30pm About $48800 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This very exact principle in reference to box ttupe speakers also appliess EQUALLY to Full Range designs. Voxativ/AER/Cube have $$$$$ priced FR inside a weird horn cabinet which run the price tag up into the thosands,,,completely not necessary, In fact in my exp, FR sound best/perform better in Open Baffel. My dual FR + Dual Tweeters, get this, well under $1500. And my $ FR design sounds as good (IMHO Better) than the mega priced FR horn designs. So there you have it, The old maxim spend spend MORE get LESS holds so true in speakers. |
@thyce - your line of thinking sits well with me. Introspective and reasoned. |
@larry5729
For most of my life I have had used cars… they are not important to me. My first loan for a $5K amp in 1979… a new car cost $7K at that time. In my early thirties I got a masters degree and joined an executive team (~75+ hours per week or more for the next 35 years) being Director of in Information Technology and implementing massive computer systems for global high tech companies. I finally did get a new Lexus, at some point, why not… it was still less expensive than my audio system at the time. I am a very passionate person, but not to the point of obsession (think Millercarbon). I have truly loved the steps and improvements in sound quality… they were never made out of frustration but enthusiasm to see how it could be better. My equipment now looks good as well as sounds great… well why not… 40+ years of working 70 - 90 hours, high stress, extensive travel. My $32K speakers are worth every penny. |
I love the comparison with cars because nobody gives a second thought when a neighbor buys a $100k car, but if you admit that you spent that much on speakers they will freak! Ironically, that's a speaker that you can go full out anytime you want compared to a car that can legally only go a boring 35mph until they hit the freeway and then it's a whopping 60 or 70 mph and the car is yawning from extreme boredom. 10 years later my speakers will still sound amazing and still have a great trade in value with no rock chips, door dings, or weathering of the paint. I personally would rather hide my wealth in a stereo that can transport me to the recording studio or stage and revel in the creativity of world class musicians than flaunt my wealth to strangers on the road that cause me to swear because they are barely amateurs at driving and can't be trusted not to hit me. |
I recently got a pair of used Elac Adante large bookshelves. I am in the process of replacing one of the woofers but have an idea what the speakers perform like. I also have a pair of Andrew Jones much higher prices TAD CR1’s. They are both concentric divers, same designer. One is $2500 a pair, one is over $40,000. Once I’ve fully got the Elac’s up and running, I may make a YouTube video about it , something like “Andrew Jones vs. Andrew Jones. “ While the Adante’s seem like they have very good potential (with top gear) let’s just say the law of diminishing returns is a myth. |
Great post.... thanks....
It is precisely whati did not with only good passive treatment but more powerfully with full active mechanical room control... I verified what you just say...
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I think this hobby if full of opportunities to experience diminishing returns. However, there is a difference in sound quality. If you buy a pair of $15,000 speakers you then have to spend half that amount on an amplifier to drive them. It would be fun to take a survey on how much people are worth who spend $100,000 on their system. It would also be interesting to find out what they do for a living. Perhaps, this would cause people to seek a profession that can support that level of spending. I also think people in this hobby are obsessive compulsive. Are they people who are typically negative who will never find a way to be satisfied. I also have seen pictures of some of these expensive systems. I know my wife would not tolerate the appearance or the spending. |
I bought my Tannoy dual concentric gold 450 dollars in 1975... I sell them 1000 dollars, i could have ask 2,000 dollars i think 3 years ago i sold them very quickly because they are rare speakers mythically search for...Not bad for almost 45 years speakers... Even if my actual speakers are smaller and very good i regret to have sell them... I was thinking at the times erroneously that headphone can rival good speakers in a treated and controlled room... I read some thread where people compared 500,000 dollars of gear with one another, i listen to that on youtube and i am satisfied comp^letely by my 500 bucks system ? am i deaf ? No i know that acoustic are not solved by buying few panels at most... Anyway a dedicated silly treated and controlled room at low cost is not possiible nor sexy for most people ande i understand that... And a professionnaly enginerred room will cost more than most costly audio system ... Then back to the costly gear with the illusion that audiophile experience come frpm the gear...not from the room at least at equal part, and most of the times for ordinary customer more from acoustic than from the basic gear... i was not knowleageable in acoustic 3 years ago... Alas! No audio magazine had acoustic article and facts and chronicle... Guess why? How do you sell costly speakers if acoustic is more important than the DIFFERENCE between the gear sold... ignorance of acoustic plague audio world...And make market consumerism better... People has no idea that the difference between comparable costly speakers is not at all comparable to the acoustic settings of the room which is way bigger impact... Basic speakers si good they are will not beat some costly qualitatively superior design but in a treated and controlled room they will TAIL them at short distance... This is the reason why my actual basically good Missiion Cyrus are superior in S.Q. now in my treated and controlled room to the higher design quality of the Tannoy dual gold concentric by a very great margin ... This is the power of acoustic... Almost no people here have a mechanically dedicated controlled audio room... Few have a dedicated passively treated room... A greater number have a system in a not so well treated living room... The majority had no treatment in their living room... And most think that their room untreated and uncontrolled is very good like it is... 😁😊 But acoustic dont change his principles with opinions in audio magazine...nor with ther superior design quality of some costly speakers...
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i'm gonna change the numbers just to make it simpler. the $2000 speakers have no value 5 years from now. $10,000 speakers might still fetch $5,000 after 5 years and they may have been "$5000 more enjoyable". Commodity equipment has little residual value once it enters your house. just another consideration - especially if its better. |
I think there is a product that everyone is comfortable with at their price & means. Mostly likely there will be a difference, but it's a difference you won't be able to tell unless you A B compare it. If so, trying to find out the difference is moot, if you are not going to consider it. I apologize if you are, but most people do not have such a large price gap range between the products they have in consideration. Such is with our hobby, audial differentiation is so much more difficult to pick up than let says visual differentiation.
Here is also something else to think about, just a fun exercise. Monitor Audio PL 500 II Platinum Series, I think their top-of-the-line speaker, costs about $35K. You can buy a used Hailey, about the same price as well. How about that? |
With more money spent on speakers you should get better more rigid enclosures, higher priced more accurate drivers and usually (but sadly not always) a well though out design. You will gain clarity in the top range and control in the bottom end, plus it should go lower. When I switched from speakers I was familiar with to new ones that cost around 5-6X as much, aside from the treble clarity I noticed a surprising lack of bass overhang - the deep bass notes didn't continue for a fraction of a second afterward, they simply stopped dead and going back to the olde speakers it seemed that that bass overhang resulted in a smearing, if you will, of the music and a loss of clarity. It was like listening to a bad in your garage vs. in a hall with designed acoustic space. And a far as the Ferraris go, I wish I still owned my vintage Lamborghini, which was a hoot and a half, but which you didn't want to park and leave anywhere lest you come back to find it with someone's initials scratched into it. |
Blutack makes for a really good gasket actually, it just requires a little brute force and ignorance (perhaps less of the latter) and I would have thought a brutish barbarian of an audiophile like you, might enjoy the sound and the challenge to swap them out for the hell of it?!!?? Ha |
As I get older, I've come to realize that my ears are what hear the music. You'd be amazed at how much hearing loss the majority of males have after 50, I'm 55. If you are younger you may be able to hear a big difference between speakers in the same setting but as you start getting older it starts getting more difficult. Go audition some speakers and pick a pair that is within your budget and enjoy the music. The odds of having a group of friends come over and marvel at the amount of $ spent on your speakers is pretty slim. Good Luck! |
Hello OP, how are you? I have heard the Monitor Audio’s. I own the Hailey 2.2’s, along with Audionet electronics and Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC, They are simply stunning in every way. I never dreamed of owning such expensive equipment. But you know what? It is worth it to me. I hear it. Loud or soft, all types of music. All the fancy words…resolution without fatigue. Immersing… There is so much good stuff at all price points. Amazing hobby / lifestyle. Pay for what your ears think it is worth to you. Everything matters. Source, preamp, amp, speakers and yes, cables. You can hear the difference. or maybe you can’t. That defines the value.
I invite anyone to hear mine. |
To more closely answer the original query...and let's assume that they measure closely. Differences in cost can include: * cost of raw materials |
The only way to answer this question is to listen to both in the same room in a blind test! If told what you’re listening to is the $50K speaker, the placebo effect kicks in - your mind not your ears tells you these have to sound better with zero evidence. Everyone on this site loves to intellectualize the sound with fancy adjectives that fall short in conveying what you hear. Its like watching a youtube video on your computer of a speaker demo- what’s the point you’re listening thru computer speakers. Forget all specs and listen. If after listening, you like the $3K speakers better- so be it! Its the sound you like. Enjoy! |
