If you MUST do this, find the absolute lowest capacitance cable (per foot) that exists, use a high output cartridge (MM or MI recommended over HOMC), and expect to have to live with some sonic degradation. If you live in a high RFI area, expect that too.
Advise on Long Phono Cable run
Audio dudes
I now have to place my TT avout 5m away from the integrated amp ( Parasound Hint 6) which has a phonostage
I currently use an MC cart AT33PTG. I might switch to an MM like a Goldring 1042 or AT 540 ML.
Would this be possible? Are there cables that I could use that will not have too much of a negative impact?
MC voltage is so low
MM is sensitive to capacitance.
Would MI be a solution or same issues as MM?
Please advise.
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I need to shift the TT as currently, it is too low and as age catches up, it’s easier to stand than go down on my knees to change or flip a record.
I now have to place my TT avout 5m away from the integrated amp ( Parasound Hint 6) which has a phonostage
I currently use an MC cart AT33PTG. I might switch to an MM like a Goldring 1042 or AT 540 ML.
Would this be possible? Are there cables that I could use that will not have too much of a negative impact?
MC voltage is so low
MM is sensitive to capacitance.
Would MI be a solution or same issues as MM?
Please advise.
-----
I need to shift the TT as currently, it is too low and as age catches up, it’s easier to stand than go down on my knees to change or flip a record.
32 responses Add your response
Would this be possible? Are there cables that I could use that will not have too much of a negative impact?5 meters? I think it is impossible to find a phono cable that long! The best solution is save the money on phono cable, buy a phono amp with xlr output and put it close to the turntable. use a xlr cable connect the phono amp output to Parasound Hint 6 balanced input. |
With such a long phono cable you need a Grado MI cartridge which is irrelevant to cable capacitance as stated in the manual, the rest of the cartridges i know require certain amount of capacitance for optimal performance (and it can be too much for 5 m long cable for some MM). Actually, for such a long run, you need a Balanced phono stage and Balanced phono cable with XLR, but if you can’t do that simply order any custom length from Frank at Signal Cable Silver Resolution. http://signalcable.com/silverresolutionphono.html I have ordered two sets of phono cable from his for my LOMC cartridges, the reason was the length, i was looking for something longer than usual. The price is great and his silver cables are highly regarded here on audiogon, buy with confidence. |
I think interconnect cable (or phono cable) within 1.2 m is standard, probably 1.5 max. Very short cables like 60cm can be used too, but sometimes it’s inconvenient. Probably 1m or 1.2m is optimal. Unbalanced cable must be shorter than 4m max, i would say 3m max. But balanced cables designed for use on long distance. This is what professional are using in the studios, on stage etc. |
Chakster made a good point. I recommended an MM cartridge, but as he notes, MM cartridges are capacitance sensitive. More so than either MI or MC types. So I agree with his recommendation for an high output MI type cartridge. Second, it goes without saying that you will have to have your cables specially made at that length. Several companies will do that. Among them I recommend AntiCables. In addition, going balanced would have no benefit unless you are running into a true balanced phono stage. A phono stage that just provides an XLR input but is single ended, will not get you all the benefits of a balanced connection. Balanced might be a bit quieter. |
I am using vintage Grado XTZ (MI) right now, it’s an old discontinued signature model. Very nice! But another Induced Magnet (IM) type i can highly recommend is ADC TRX II , here is some basic info from the manual. Look at this Sapphire cantilever with Vital III (PH type LineContact diamond). It was designed by Nakatsuka-San (now ZYX) for ADC in the 80’s. Replacement stylus assembly screwed into cartridge for superb rigidity. Hight compliance. Long time ago i bought ADC Astrion, also with Sapphire cantilever, i must say the ADC TRX is completely different design from different person, so the performance of the TRX II is much better than older Astrion. |
The Gold Note PH-10 has balanced outpout, i have this phono stage, but i don’t use balanced out. Anyway, you can put such phono stage near the turntable with standard 1.2m RCA unbalanced cable, but from the output of the phono stage you will get balanced XLR for a long run to your amp. It can be 5m easily. Good idea, but the cost of the phono stage ... |
Just to kick a dead horse even further down the road, you could choose a moving magnet cartridge that requires a high-capacitance load. For example some types are flattest in response when they have as much as 400 pF or even more of capacitance on them. Then you could deliberately choose a cable that would give you the required amount of extra capacitance.But if we are now talking about a phono stage placed very close to the turntable, that is the best way to go. Hififan, microphones make a fair amount of signal voltage. I’m not sure what you meant by your remark. |
I cut and pasted an excerpt from the description on the Manley Laboratories website, written on their phono stage model, Chinook. I own one and can speak highly of its sonic performance. In fact, it's the best sounding phono stage component I have ever owned (having several over the years past). My turntable is 8 feet from my main line-stage preamp. I have the Chinook located just below the turntable, with the phono connection being the standard 1.2M length. I use an Audioquest cable run of 3M from the Chinook to my line-stage preamp. There is absolutely no trouble running that length. Zero noise, no loss of signal strength, fabulous sound. I am running a modest output MC cartridge of 0.6mv, which is a Lyra Delos. Anyway, this setup works very well and sounds wonderful. Read the paragraph below and then log on to the Manley Laboratories website for further information. I hope this helps you. Good luck on your quest. Like the Steelhead, each channel employs the two triode sections of a 6922 for amplifying duties with highly accurate passive RIAA equalization networks. In the Chinook, the signal is then directly coupled to another 6922 dual triode serving as the output driver in a White Follower configuration. This output stage circuit is our favorite because of its super-low output impedance and beefy current-driving capabilities. It can drive long cable lengths and difficult loads, tube or solid-state. Bring it on. No wimpy cathode followers here! |
Dear @jagjag : It does not matters the type of cartridge you can use it, with 5m. cable from the TT to the Halo RCA phono inputs you will have a " severe " cartridge signal degradation especially at high frequency due to the cable resistance and what you say can happens about that the very low signal is way suceptible to be contaminated rfi/emi and the like no matter waht. Now, my next advise depends on the importance that the LP listening sessions has to you and how often you listen to LP and even how many LP's you own and if LP is your main listening medium ( I doubt it because your Halo is not precisely for analo but....) then that TT must be nearest to the Halo ( no more than 1.25m. ) and the other electronics/speakers at " long distance " from the Halo because are all high level units including the signal to the speakers and the Halo output impedance is low enough for you have not problem down there other that all the money you need for the overall system cables you have to buy. The other solution is that you buy a true balanced phono stage and connect it from those 5m. through the Halo balanced input. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
The interconnect cable from my TT uses balanced xlr connectors. It was wired that way at the factory. Almost all cartridges are capable of balanced output. My cartridge has a rated output of .44mV. TT is currently in a temporary location so for a stop gap solution I'm using about 10m of old beat up, cheap, coiled up mic cable. Good strong signal to the pre, (which is fully balanced) no noise and not enough signal degradation to notice unless you were to do an A/B test. You should be able to have your TT interconnect rewired to balanced easily and economically and be good to go as long as your phono input is also balanced. |
The problem here isn't that the length, so much as it is capacitance! Even with a balanced connection, the physics are a bit different than it is with a microphone; the capacitance of the cable and the inductance of the cartridge make a tuned circuit with a resonance. Over 5(!)meters, the capacitance will be significant regardless of the cable, single-ended or balanced, such that the resonant frequency will be quite low. That will in turn make for problems with many phono sections if the resonance is even outside the audio band. With MM it will be **in** the audio band and make a mess of things. If you can't find a compact phono section with a balanced output, I would get a single-ended phono section that can otherwise do the job and have it drive a line transformer which can convert from single-ended to balanced to drive the long run. Most high end audio phono sections that have a balanced output don't actually support the balanced standard, and as a result will be unable to drive a length like that. But if you use a line transformer you can pull it off. This would be best driving a balanced input at the line stage; if that's not available you'll need another line transformer to convert back to single-ended. If you do it this way the long interconnect will not have to be expensive yet will be sonically neutral. |
You can find a mint condition
PS Audio GCPH MM/MC Phono Preamplifier under $600. https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-6naz0isypk/images/stencil/2048x2048/products/27530/190549/2u6BN4o__2... https://www.hifishark.com/model/ps-audio-gcph |
Hello JagJag. You probably know that very long microphone cables are common at performance venues. Good quality microphone cables are not expensive especially when compared to some of the fancy "audiophile" cables being sold today. If you can solder, it's easy and cheap to try a few potential solutions. Microphone cables have generally two signal wires and a ground wire or they may use the shield for the ground. A DIY specialist carries a Chinese wire that imitates really good Belden cable. I have used it with excellent results. The trade name is "Talent." I think we are not supposed to mention dealers, etc. I'm not trying to be cute. TRY #1: At the turntable, connect the left channel wire to the white conductor and the right channel to the red conductor. This way you only have to run one piece of cable to your amp. Try not to run the wire parallel to any AC power cables. At the amp end, connect the white conductor and ground to a phono plug for the left channel and the red conductor and ground to a phono plug for the right channel. (A million people with no experience will tell you this won't work. Ignore them, this is worth a try. If it doesn't work out for you, you will know how long to cut the next wire.) TRY #2: Don't cut a second wire yet! If you get all your music on this system from records, this trick should work. At the phono cartridge, switch the wires for one of the channels. One channel will now be out of phase with the other. At the speaker for that channel, reverse the polarity of the speaker wires. Only make the change for one channel. (You are still using the wire from TRY #1.) Is the hum problem solved? If no, TRY #3: Cut another cable the same length as the one for TRY ##1. Connect the red wire to ground along with the shield and the white wire to the center pin of the phono plug (on both ends). Now you have a sheilded, "twisted pair" cable. Modify your first cable the same way. This does away with oddball terminations on the first cable. Connect the cartridge and the cables the conventional way. Less hum? Sound good? If that doesn't work, and you absolutely MUST have the turntable so far away, TRY #4: Get some high quality, double shielded (braid and foil) cable like your cable company uses to connect the set top boxes to the cable company's feed at the curb (it is often called RF cable or just RF Co-ax), put phono connectors on both ends, try that. You can start with one channel just to see if it works and avoid some work if you don't like the results. If it doesn't work, you can use those cables you made to connect a small phono preamp box right behind your turntable to the amp. It will beat most other cables out there. Happy Soldering! |
Hey Guys, Yes, get a phonostage !! My phono cables are 1.5 meter from cartridge pins to inputs on either phonostage. I can play my system a Low, Medium or High volume with satisfiying results !! This setup, is by personal choice. I do not like the setups that I see on virtual systems. All gear racked up between the speakers. Gear and especially TTs , Out of the room, IMHO. Thus, I need a long pair of ICs to accomplish this. I was a Spectral owner for 20 years. With a pair of Avalon Opus speakers. ( 2c3D ) system. Loved it, all these years. At Axpona 2016, I decided to totally revamp / upgrade my entire system Just wanted a change in sound and some extra convenient features. My current system is: Kuzma Stabi S w/ 12" VTA arm and 1.5 meter cable |
You probably know that very long microphone cables are common at performance venues.@bommerbillone The reason this works for microphones and not cartridges is pretty important! Microphones are typically driving an input transformer which is properly loaded on its secondary- eliminating any issues with electrical resonance. Microphones also have considerably more output. You might want to take a look at this article, which shows what the engineering issue is with electrical resonance: http://www.hagtech.com/loading.html |
jagjag, I believe it would behoove you to consider a simple audio rack to "pull" your system together. Placing your TT on the uppermost shelf and your integrated or phono stage on the next shelf etc. If a four shelf unit would work well for you I would recommend: The Plateau SE-A4 (~ $250). If you require 5 shelves then consider: Salamander Archetype 5.0 (~ $300). It may be a great opportunity to jump for that Parasound Pre-amp with Phono Stage built in. It will decrease your interconnects and simplify your system. No need for balanced cables either. Best & cheers |
I do not know if I can rewire it from RCA to XLR plugs.We've done it but its a real pain. You have to take the base of the arm apart; there's a tiny circuit board in its base where the wires from the cartridge are interfaced with the output connections. To make the conversion the balanced cable you use has to be very small diameter; we've had good luck with Mogami console cable, which is 1/8" diameter and low capacitance. This should all be performed by a qualified technician! |
