Advice on setting VTA

My thoughts on VTA is that you are actually looking to get stylus rake angle correct. You find the figure from the manufacturer and then look to hit that. Now some folks use USB microscopes and superimpose a compass over it to get the measurement down pat. I am not that sophisticated. I use magnification and good light to get the diamond leading edge to 90 degrees, and then adjust by ear from there. With on the fly VTA its pretty easy to do, so I don't get worked up over the USB scope thing. Of course it depends on the diamond profile, some are more finicky than others. Now some cartridge manufacturers build proper VTA indicators into their cartridge design, such as a parallel bottom, or Ortofon wants their logo parallel to the record. Those are ways to rough it in, and then you can adjust by ear from there. Just the way I look at VTA, and my opinion is all. 

An exercise in MADNESS!

If you're one of the fortunate listeners with sensitive hearing, have at it.

After listening/thinking about the reality, I can't hear a difference with my less than audio geek hearing.

That said, parallel body with a record of average thickness. 

Power to all the enthusiasts who obsess on that adjustment. I WISH I had that super human hearing that some  have. Maybe not.

If EVERY record you own is of different thickness, then the entire idea of getting that magic angle is going to be part of the ritual for EVERY damn record. UGH.

That would force me to go to the dark side if that were the case.....DIGITAL!

That would be a CODE RED. The sky is falling.

Visual setting, even with a microscope, is only getting you into the ballpark. Its plenty good enough and if your arm makes VTA setting a chore then eye ball it, relax and enjoy. 

If however your arm is designed for fine tuning, and especially if it allows VTA on the fly, then you can do a whole lot better. Yes SRA is what you really are adjusting. The stylus however sits on the end of the cantilever. When playing a record the whole thing swings up and down and all over the place. The stylus never just sits there static like it will be if you take a picture. So its a waste of time. What you care about is where it is while playing music. For this you have to be playing music. Which makes microscopes impossible. But you can always hear the effect of better SRA. So here's how you do it:

Warm everything up, put on any record you like. Listen. Lower VTA. Lower the back of the arm down a bit. When I say a bit- 1mm is a lot. Even .1mm is a lot. We're talking fine tuning here. So fine tune. 

Lower it a bit and listen. The sound will be fuller, warmer. The initial attack of notes will be a bit less sharp and aggressive. You will know right away if you went the wrong way or the right way. If you're not sure no problem, simply either raise it back up or lower it even further down. Once you do this even a few times you will get the hang of it and you will know. 

Then it becomes a process of very small changes. Let's say it sounds better when you raise it. So keep raising it, listening, raising, listening, a very tiny amount each time. Eventually one time when you raise it instead of it becoming more detailed and clear it will become thin and instead of the bass getting tighter and more defined it will just seem a bit less. You went too far. So back it off a bit. Lower it back down. 

At this point you find out just how picky you are. Already the sound is far better than eyeball. By a process of interpolation you can get to where its dead on. But only for that one record! Next one may sound better a little higher or lower. We're talking tiny differences. 

This is where most will call it good. Which believe me if you did this it is plenty good! The next step will be to do this with several of your favorite records. After a while you will notice there's one setting that is just about perfect for the vast majority. You're done. 

Unless... its possible on some arms to write down the VTA setting on the record sleeve so that next time you can play it with perfect VTA. Not just really really close, perfect. 

There's no right or wrong. No matter what you might think the stylus isn't sublimely gliding its bouncing around the groove all the time anyway, so being off a bit isn't doing any harm. Its all down to how much you enjoy the results of perfect vs how much you enjoy the fuss of getting it there.

I use this to make sure the arm is parallel then adjust from there.

http://aaudioimports.com/ShowProduct.asp?hProduct=81

millercarbon pretty much nailed it.
 I also start with dropping the tonearm a few millimeters and start from there the sound will be very 2D and "flat " sounding. When you get near the right height the sound will become more 3D  having depth to the sound.

I've watched Fremer on an Analog Planet video use a USB camera to set SRA , he got it to 93 degrees said it was close enough and would have to fine tune by ear anyways....I don't see the need of the camera then..just my $0.02.
I used a lively jazz recording without a lot of vocals.

Just take your time.

Scott 

Thank you guys for all your input! Certainly some very good techniques on display....now to find some time to do it lol. 

I use a sequence when aligning a cart for the first time.
1) Use a protractor to set ballpark overhang and zenith.
2) Use a VTA block to set the cartridge Upper surface  parallel from both the front and the side.
https://www.amazon.com/VTA-Azimuth-Gauge-Alignment-Block/dp/B0771Z3XMH/ref=sr_1_17_sspa?dchild=1&...=
3) Set the VTF
https://www.amazon.com/Riverstone-Audio-Record-Level-Turntable-Resolution/dp/B076DFZDS4/ref=sr_1_2?d...
4) Align overhang and zenith to protractor.  Check VTF again.
5) Sound test.  Crosstalk out of balance?  Dial in azimuth.  Sibilant or breakup on loud passage?  Realign zenith.    OK?  Then tweak VTF and listen for best. 
6) Adjust VTA/SRA.
7) Recheck everything.
8) Repeat.
9) Repeat
10) Repeat until it's right...

I do almost exactly what @wlutke does, except I use the VTA block to set VTA - as recommended by the cartridge manufacturer - and then check by sighting the actual cantilever, rather than using the cartridge body or pickup arm themselves as a reference.

Zenith is probably the most-overlooked aspect of phono cartridge alignment and one of the most critical, imo. I set it by using a mirrored gauge and aligning the cantilever itself.

It is true that the dynamic nature of LP playback means that things like VTA/SRA and VTF are constantly changing and with a pivoted arm, skating force and tracking error are also always changing. But getting proper static alignment helps limit the negative effects of the dynamic forces.

a current related thread

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/vta-on-the-fly

others have shown you the clear plexi blocks with mm grids,

I got this clear plastic protractor, can set it behind the stylus, light goes thru it ...
I scratched a few reference lines in the plastic, one 15 degrees for my Shure V15, to get started.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01HF9PEA4/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

@cleeds   

and then check by sighting the actual cantilever, rather than using the cartridge body or pickup arm themselves as a reference.

Couldn't agree more.  It's easy to accidentally bloat your bass by setting the tail too low if you're not paying attention to rake angle as well.

andirocks-

I've watched Fremer on an Analog Planet video use a USB camera to set SRA , he got it to 93 degrees said it was close enough and would have to fine tune by ear anyways....I don't see the need of the camera then..

Right. That's the thing about cartridges: eyes first, then ears. 

Overhang and zenith (rotation on the vertical axis commonly called "alignment") are set geometrically with whatever method you choose. Everything beyond that is done by ear. VTF is a range, within which you tune by ear. VTA, always by ear. Azimuth, same deal. 

There's no end to the tools some guys will try and push to make up for the lack of listening but really everything can be done equally well if not better by ear. 

Excellent discussion! Very informative!!

I agree! I am glad I brought it up! 😀

This is really crazy making....raise/lower the rear end of the arm. This also increases/decreases vtf, and moves the stylus on the alignment jig....and screws around with azimuth. Every variable makes a difference...it may be a month or so until all the adjustments are as you like them.  Get a couple of pills ready....after 30minutes or so, go to sleep and resume your efforts tomorrow.

Lol! Stringreen , it's enough to drive you nuts!

except exotic methods:

VTA/SRA is always last, as everything must be right and tight

cartridge (every connection back to pivot), needs to be TIGHT, to headshell/arm. azimuth can/often changes while tightening, do a final check, refine if needed.

Arm Post: perfect vertical alignment of the arm post, viewing down, straight in all 360 degrees, is needed so nothing changes throughout the arc across the lp outer track to inner track. If correct, raising and lowering the back of the arm should not change azimuth.

raising an arm, adjusting VTA/SRA, arm post must be ’loosened’, it needs to be tightened, both to preserve arm post vertical positioning, thus azimuth, and rigidity. then listen to change, it’s not easy.

azimuth is set viewing from front, adjusting left/right/ ... until stylus tip is straight down into the groove (90 degree angle), the grids on the transparent blocks help, and a mirror placed below the stylus reflects any variance, helps get it right. anti-skate off while setting azimuth so the arm stays put while viewing/adjusting.

look at the cantilever/tip, not the cartridge body, occasionally a stylus cantilever/tip is a squeak 'off' square with the body.

I’ve read that using an index card on top of record can be a good way to set it due to the parallel lines on the card. My question is what am looking at to get parallel? The bottom of tonearm, top, or the bottom of cartridge?

Armtube must be parallel to the record surface when the needle is in the vinyl groove. Most tonearms designed this way and a cartridge/stylus also will be in correct position if the tonearm tube is parallel to the record surface. This is very easy to adjust if your tonearm have VTA adjustment (on the fly or not).

So when your particular tonearm tube is parallel to the record your cartridge is not parallel ?

What is your cartridge then and what is the stylus profile on your cartridge? For some profiles a tiny difference in VTA is irrelevant (conical for example).

More important: Are you sure you can detect any difference when you change VTA slightly? Why you’re so concerned about it?

The tone arm is a carbon fiber/aluminum 9 inch pro-ject. It does appear to have a slight taper towards the headshell end of arm.

If this is your tonearm are you gonna say there is no recommendations regarding VTA setup in the manual from Pro-Ject ? Almost any toneam i know comes with the manual and recommendation how to set up VTA correctly.

There is not much info, no, in regards to setting VTA in manual. I’m not that concerned, it was just a question put out there out of curiosity as to how others go about setting their VTA. And yes, I personally can hear a difference in the VTA setting. Right now I have my hana el slightly ass down as I think it sounds nice this way. Too far tilted in opposite direction I feel it to be a bit harsher and the bass not as well defined. The only issue with the pro ject arm is it that it has a taper, it gets slightly narrower as it nears the headshell area of tonearm,  as I noted in prior postings. So to visually see parallel is not easy. That is why I’m going about checking VTA via viewing both top and bottom of cartridge to get it close. Yes, I understand I should be more concerned with viewing the actual stylus take etc. .. but without high magnification i cannot see it very clearly. I’m old.....

Hi,
follow general instructions from cartridge manufacturer, and then adjust by ear (assuming all other alignment is correct). Parallel arms or cartridge bodies tell me nothing. What you want to achieve is nearly correct or absolute SRA (remember it is largely affected by playing weight).

The hana el is a nude elliptical so it is not as critical or as sensitive to the VTA as say a line contact stylus. But that does not mean I dont want to at least get it close to what it should be. Perfection will not be found due to too many variables so I'm not losing any sleep over it. Post was created generally out of my own curiosity. I do appreciate all the responses and will have to take the time to go back and read them all.

From the way it sounds I think I’m most likely pretty close to ideal, at least for my ears. I’m sure that I can probably get it closer...by using a high power microscope etc similar to what Fremer uses, but I most likely will just leave it be....my pro ject turntable is a pia to adjust it, not much fun. No adjust on the fly here...

Given all the complicated post here, I thought I would chime in with a post I've used before. Here is my $.02 keeping in mind that success will depend on stylus shape and the quality of associated components.  And some experience listening.

Keep in mind that VTA setting should NOT be a tone control.  There is one correct setting for a disk.  But with a disk you should be close enough not to change for each disk unless you are particularly obsessive.  Many of us are.  Setting vta (really, sra) is like aligning the reading head on a tape machine.  There should be one correct setting.  It's not really an opinion issue.  But it's also not very easy for most of us. 

All best done by ear.  Even with expensive microscopes, last setting is by ear.  Save your money.

Find a recording that people say is good for hearing the differences when you adjust SRA. Do a search here and elsewhere; there are lots of suggestions out there.*   If you can't find one, take a record of a female singer and listen to it over and over 'till you know it very well. I have used Joni Mitchell's "Blue."  Make sure it's something you like 'cause you'll be listening to it a lot.

Set your tone arm to level and listen to the recording a few times. Level is only a beginning point. It is rare for absolutely level to be the end point with a sophisticated stylus shape and components.

Read all you can about your cartridge and see if reviewers or users have a consensus suggesting tail up or down.  Change the angle in that direction a very small amount and listen to the whole record. You are listening for the voice and instruments to "pop" making them more 3 dimensional. It's quite subtle, but it's there with the a stylus having a clear rake. Do that again and again in very small increments. If you do not hear improvement soon go back and stay at level.

If your reading does not come up with a tail up or down consensus. You may have to try this in both directions.

If you do not hear this kind of improvement, go back and stay at level.  Go on to adjust azimuth which many (including Peter Ledermann) consider the most important adjustment.

* Flying Fish HDS 701, "Sauerkraut and Solar Energy" is a popular suggestion, though one listens for other things using this disk--the bass fiddle.  And great record besides.  If you do get this record, there's a lot of posts on how to use it.

I personally can hear a difference in the VTA setting. Right now I have my hana el slightly ass down as I think it sounds nice this way. Too far tilted in opposite direction I feel it to be a bit harsher and the bass not as well defined.

What you’re using called "negative VTA" @audioguy85
What i remember from an old Dan den Hul interview is the benefit of the "positive VTA" for high frequency reproduction. I can’t find this interview, would be nice to post it here.

Keep in mind that VTA setting should NOT be a tone control. There is one correct setting for a disk. But with a disk you should be close enough not to change for each disk unless you are particularly obsessive. Many of us are. Setting vta (really, sra) is like aligning the reading head on a tape machine. There should be one correct setting. It’s not really an opinion issue. But it’s also not very easy for most of us.

@melm great post
I agree, i do not change VTA often (if i do not change a cartridge).
It is definitely not a tone control and i wouldn’t use it this way.

Some very nice tonearms like my Reed 3p, FR-64s in B-60 vta base, or Technics EPA-100 mkII ... are all have precise VTA on the fly to experiment. It’s a good option to adjust a cartridge, but once it’s adjusted and tested for few month with well known records i do not change it anymore.

I use this to make sure the arm is parallel then adjust from there.

http://aaudioimports.com/ShowProduct.asp?hProduct=81

Damn! $85? I have one of these. Got it on eBay for about $5. 😳

I don't get too hung up about VTA, but I do have dynamic VTA adjustment. I find settings each for 200 gr, 180 gr and older thinner records. Spend some time listening/adjusting (a tad tail down with my DV XV-1S) and note the position for each record weight. I dial that in for each record I play which is easy. 

setting the headshell level is a great baseline starting point since most cartridges are designed to sound their best at that position.  i use a small bubble level on top of the flat part of the headshell while the stylus is in the groove.  make sure the plinth is level and that vtf temporarily compensates for the weight of the level.  
run it this way and adjust to taste, raising slightly if the sound is muffled or bass heavy, lowering slightly if the sound is bright or edgy.  rsise or lower in 1/2 mm increments and note your original height and your adjusted heights using a log book.  
good luck, you will get there!

The analogmagik system is "A Scientific & Repeatable Method To Calibrate: Speed, Wow & Flutter, Azimuth, VTA, VTF, Anti-skating, Loading, Gain, Vibrations & Resonance Frequencies." to quote from their website.

hi,
what you want to achieve is correct or very close SRA.
There is not correct or wrong VTA depends from cantilever position and how stylus is attached onto it. You may discover in the end that back of tonearm is high or low. My practice is to align the cantilever and stylus first and then search for the magic spot with VTA/SRA.. Do not forget that tracking weight is also in the equation and not a minor point of alignment. If bass is fast, tight, high positioned in picture then it is almost done.

Analogmagik will take your money at a very rapid clip.  Don't forget their $160 Torque Driver Kit.  Wouldn't want to tighten down my cartridge screws with anything less. :)