Yes it's true. Asbestos miners working ten hour days breathing a gram per cubic meter asbestos dust develop lung disease in as little as 20 years. The microscopically infinitesimally immeasurably few bits of fibers you might inhale listening to music an hour or so a week is dead certain to give you cancer, and probably only in five or ten thousand years.
The one thing this bozo is right about is no way you can put a panel on the wall for less than a grand. They can't be anyone else's panels, those guys don't even know about all these invisible astronomically non-existent non-risks. We cannot even begin to estimate the cost of room treatment until we know your net worth.
And I know what you're thinking, but we already know your gullibility and susceptibility to BS is sky high, or you'd never watch these stupid videos. So all we need now is your money.
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My last home had a concrete acoustic ceiling. No asbestos laden soft material. It was heavy and would require a rebuild of the entire ceiling to remove it. But why do that?
That kind of ceiling makes for a great sounding room. It was 19 x 29. It was a den/living room that was my dedicated listening room. The issue: Stone and wood and one side wall and nothing but drywall on the other side wall. But it was a fixable problem.
Sometimes what you are dealt with, by sheer luck, is a great sounding room. The bass response I got from a pair of salk Songtowers was simply evil...and not boomy at all...just deep and clear as sin. Then I moved.
I think we gotta work with what we got. Each room has it's sonic signature..and is unique.
Some just require a lot more work.
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If anyone here has 68 k to spend on room treatment I will take the job. I will get it done over the top for 10k and pocket a 58k profit for my work great gig if you can get it! |
No...not really. Thoughtful room placement of speakers and furnishings, using Mapleshade’s speaker placement advice should suffice for most listeners. |
Don't be silly! Find a nice rug you like and hang it on the wall from a one inch spacer. Maybe a couple of rugs on different walls (on the floor if it's not already carpeted. |
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Not to derail the thread, but I too find Foley’s fiberglassophobia off putting and borderline ludicrous. Don’t get me started on perhaps well intentioned folks who invoke metaphysical concepts where they don’t belong, as seems to the the case in this instance. If it ain’t "all natural" or "organic" it is deadly, they seem to think. Never mind the fact that some of the most toxic substances known to man are natural products. Let’s go back to the good old preindustrial days, when people were really healthy as reflected in their average life span of 32 years.
OK, I will get off my soap box. All that said, Foley’s use of activated carbon (charcoal) is really intriguing. I can imagine those traps could be quite good. The ACDA 12 has some good activity below 50 Hz where it is hard to find things that work. They are very expensive and no doubt quite heavy, so are they cost effective? I don’t know. |
@brownsfan I agree about the weirdness of "fiberglassophobia."
For someone who is ostensibly a scientist and/or engineer, this scare tactic (which he dwells on) is very problematic. Clearly, if people believe him, they have to go with his (non-toxic) alternative which, by the way, is supposedly better acoustically as well. And, more profitable for him.
At the end of the day, are his products effective? Are they better? Well, maybe, but either he is honestly misinformed about fiberglass (which speaks to a deficiency of knowledge) OR he is intentionally misinforming others to sell products. Either way, it has a bad odor. |
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These are ridiculous numbers if you need that much money on treatment you are using the wrong kind of room for your system. A good room will need very little treatment if any to sound wonderful and it is usually pretty easy to find a decent one in any normal floor plan house.
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A good room will need very little treatment I am not by far an acoustician and i speak only from my experience in my room... The change induced by acoustic passive and active treatment and controls are so huge in SMALL room, that there exist probably no small room that will not benefit from them... The decisive point is what is a small room and a big one? Reverberation time flows are key... The reason why people think they dont need now treatment neither controls in their small " good" room is because they never lived the experience of total transformation of the S.Q.before in their audio live... If you have not live it you cannot imagine it....We are conditioned by the market to buy speakers and thinking they are good or bad in themselves by virtue of their design and this in ANY room...This is completely false... Speakers change dramatically in different room... I will repeat that give me almost any speaker i can make it sound great in a good room adapted to it... Give me the best speakers there is in a bad small untreated and uncontrolled room, they will sound bad or at best not very good.... THis is only my opinions after my limited but very real experience.... I dont think that any acoustician will contradict me.... |
I have been using GIK products and have made use of their free advice as well. My experience has been one of gradual improvement as opposed to an all-at-once treatment. I can say this: something is better than nothing and I haven’t found ‘too much’ yet, though I certainly believe it is possible.
Once I put in bass traps and took care of direct reflections from walls and ceiling, I added diffusers towards the back of my listening room, which, given the other improvements I’d already enjoyed, seemed remarkable.
The main thing here, if you’re not doing some kind of professional room sound analysis anyway, is to try to fix the biggest problems first, and only then go after those smaller issue that remain. I don’t think one needs to spend a fortune. |
I’d add that my experience has been that acoustic treatments can make any rig sound better, regardless of price. |
It certainly doesn't have to cost that much to treat a room.
I was lucky enough to have a friend whose profession is building home theatre spaces, and he owns many thousands of dollars worth of audio instrumentation and software and he was kind enough to help me set up my combination listening room/home theatre.
I already had a false curved ceiling which helped on a couple of issues, and the one live wall made up of glass doors was happily handled by installing heavy optically opaque curtains which I needed for video anyway.
Many of the other issues were dealt with inexpensively. For instance two and a bit walls lined floor to ceiling with shelves of vinyl LPs make a great diffuser (and no, I did not stow them with every other album pulled out or pushed in although it would theoretically have enhanced diffusion.
Speaker set up was a mix of a ballpark area they needed to be in plus accurate measurement - me in a listening chair, him with a laser range finder to accurately position my chair and the speakers. Ditto for the four surround speakers and two subwoofers.
Undesirable echos were dealt with by things as simple as laying an antique carpet on the too live wood flooring. |
Thanks @wwoodrum for your experiences. I have heard from several experienced people who added treatments early on only to find they didn't do anything. But, as you relate, adding more seemed to pull things into visible (or audible) range and then other work with diffusers, a bass array, etc. brought things home. But, at first, a lot of money for no results.
@wspohn Yes, having that kind of help is invaluable! Good karma for you! |
The answer is, 'Possibly' - you can spend less and you can spend more.
In my case, I spent $118K with Dennis for an unsatisfactory result.
It really depends on the room, and how difficult the existing acoustics will be to treat and the capabilities of the designer. If your room is pretty decent already, you may not need much to put the finishing touches on it. If your room presents difficult acoustic challenges, the spend can go way up as does the risk of as positive outcome.
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In my case, I spent $118K with Dennis for an unsatisfactory resul Have i read it correctly? 118,000 US dollars? If yes, this confirm my experience and conclusion with 2 years of experiments at almost NO cost, in my room 13x13 square with 81/2 feet height... Irregular topology and irregular geometry ....One of my speaker is even in the corner a few inches of the walls.... The other not.... The imaging is no more affected at all now.... The balance between my 2 speakers is perfect instead of that.... Any small room NEED treatment and controls, especially if you think it is good... 😁 Because people have no idea what is the S.Q. impact adition.... They are never experience it how could they imagined it? Acoustic retailer for reason of business economy must add customers, they dont need the time to cure a room, if this room is out of the ideal norm... My experience with small room is that they need special, specific, listening attentive care with attentive ears...No rule easy to go with mechanically will cure a difficult small room with a not ideal geometry, a not ideal topology and a varied acoustical complex content... You cannot replace EARS experiments with charcoal or any "magical" costly materials....That post confirm my point... But really you are unsatisfied after 118 k bucks? I am totally in heaven in 2 listening positions in my room at peanuts cost.... Am i deaf? No, the proof is there for me, acoustic controls and treatment need only careful listenings and incremental working.... It takes me 2 years of fun.....It is finished and i am stunned each day.... Trust your ears, keep the money, have fun..... |
I spent $900 for all my GIK acoustic panels. I also spent another $1000 to implement software DSP via professionally crafted Convolution files running on ROON. I am mostly digital streaming so these 2 treatments get me to my destination. I am done. |
Thanks for the feedback yyz and pureaudio. Mahgister, I think I've seen your story a few hundred times. |
All posts about audio acoustic is ABOUT money spending.... Hundred of them...
When i was beginning my seach the only post useful would have been advice to not spend big money but to listen...
Sorry if the truth is so much not in the rolling current flows.... |
There are no guarantees when you hire these guys, I believe some of it proven science and some is guess work. |
I was surprised by how expensive good treatments are. I went with Acoustical Systems Corp (ASC). I’m sure Acoustic Fields products are great too.
To control costs, you can start by controlling base in the corners of your room, as well as the first side-wall reflection points (using a mirror to dial it in).
I also like RPG Skyline diffusers for the center of your soundstage and ASC absorption panels on the wall behind your listening position.
That will get you 80% there with money to spare for later.......ambiance via more side wall treatments and ceiling treatments.
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It's true that "There are no guarantees when you hire these guys" so all I'm seeking with my question is which of these guys is better, more reasonably priced, more risky, etc. I think the writing on the wall is pretty clear. |
No, but I drive a 1996 Subaru |
Even among the more common vendors, there's a pretty big disparity in cost. About double what the next one down charges I think. I haven't looked in a long time, but if memory serves: - ASC (most expensive)
- GIK
- ATS (least expensive)
Of them, after hearing a hotel room full of ASC products I cannot recommend them at all. GIK is more affordable and has some really effective products for bass mode controls. ASC is also very nice and quite affordable. |
Thank you Erik. Your posts on room acoustics are go to’s for me. |
Not enough coffee in me yet. The last sentence should read: ATS Acoustics is also very nice and quite affordable. |
Those must be some terrible speakers to need this much.
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The problem with cost analysis comparisons from the various vendors is that the absolute cost is not very meaningful, within reason. What one needs to focus on is the cost effectiveness of the various products. That is not a simple matter of Sabins/dollar. The traps don't sound the same. I have a variety of products in my room. I've got RealTraps Mondo traps, GIK soffit traps, Mega traps, 6 alphas, Tritraps, and a variety of the GIK 242 and 244 type traps. Most of these traps are range limited in order to address LF ringing. I get the best sound with my RealTraps (limp membrane type) mounted on the front walls, soffit traps in the front corners, Real Traps Mondo in the right rear corner, a GiK Tritrap in the left rear corner, and GIK 6 alphas on the rear wall. The LF traps are not interchangeable in terms of sound.
I am a die hard advocate of using REW to make room treatment decisions, but I can't tease a rationale out of the measurement data to explain why a given low frequency trap sounds better than another in a given location. I made the decision to defer permanent installation of traps until I was finished. So I can still switch out locations on most of my traps even now.
Most of us are not inclined to run A/B comparisons of different trap types in our own rooms. The only reason why I did this is because I added my traps in 3 different phases and ended up with a bunch of different stuff.
Let me be clear- There is a reason why I haven't bought any of Foley's products, and it is not because of their cost in absolute terms. I don't know how much carbon are in his traps, but the activated carbon he uses runs from about $80-$200 per kilogram. His traps aren't going to be nearly as easy to build as a GIK Monster trap. I might suggest the price of his traps is reasonable based on what I think it would take to make them. The key question is "Are they competitive on a cost/perfomance basis. He doesn't make that argument, but rather makes an argument that you will die instantly from beta particles shooting out of the fiberglass. Sorry, I ain't buying that snake oil.
I think the best approach for someone starting fresh in an untreated room is to take a somewhat theoretical approach. Limp membrane traps have an inherent advantage for use in high pressure zones such as front walls and corners. RealTraps, in my estimation, is the best source of limp membrane traps. Backwalls, depending upon distance from the listening position, can benefit from a mixture of traditional absorption and diffusion. I think this is why I had such good luck with GIK 6 alphas in that position. I think that what works best for sidewall first reflection points is heavily dependent on the width of the room. I would be reluctant to generalize on that. I prefer to leave side walls forward of the first reflection points untreated, and use traditional fiberglass absorption behind the first reflection points.
I didn't have a clue what I was doing when I started. Somehow, by a mixture of hard work, aptitude for physical sciences, and dumb blind luck I took a room that was miserable and transformed it to one that was quite good. I've got about 7K in the project including a Swarm sub system but not counting replacing my flooring at a cost of 3.5 K, which in my room, was absolutely necessary. Spending 10K in anything like a normal room should be more than enough. The hard part is learning enough so you can be smart about what you do.
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One of the things I like to think about is that room acoustics spend doesn't necessarily scale like other parts of gear.
$6k of room treatment in a modest, average living room is really nice. That may be all you can spend due to room aesthetic considerations. Once you have that, you can scale up your electronics and speakers as much as you want to, your room acoustic treatments will remain.
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The question is what would you pay if you made as many of these treatments yourself as is possible. Without question most enthusiasts dont spend what they should on their room.
For this amount of money I would take my room down to studs and rebuild from this point on with double dry wall, nonparallel surfaces, etc. What is critical is that you do YOUR homework and not listen to a single expert especially one that sells treatments. |
audition_audio makes a great point here. If you are talking 100K, you could build a pretty good room with optimal materials and dimensions.
That said, I'm not as sold on the non parallel surfaces concept as I used to be. Non parallel surfaces will not eliminate modes, it will make the modes less predictable. The existing models (that I know of) won't work on non parallel surfaces, which makes the room an expensive experiment.
I'd take a room that is roughly 23 x 16 x11 on a concrete slab with medium weight carpeting and go from there. Use of a distributed bass array and judicious use of the right kind of treatments in the right locations and you would have a really good room pretty quickly. |
I thought I would jump in on this conversation about Acoustic Fields product cost. I spent the last four years converting my dinning room into an exceptional world class dedicated listening room. I started my journey watching and reading as much of Dennis' online material as I could. I purchased 14 bags of his activated carbon and got started. I ended up building in my garage just about every product he sells. I went as far as to building my own in-wall/ front and rear wall diaphragmatic activated carbon bass absorption, Early on Dennis coached me through some of the design work, but I ended up having to figure it out for myself; I couldn't afford his products or consultation. It takes a lot of time and material costs to build his products, especially if using nice wood trim. I've experimented with many acoustic products from the GIK and others. I can say without a doubt, Acoustic Field's low frequency absorption is hands down, the best! Worth the cost. For mid and high frequency absorption, there are many inexpensive products out there that do a great job. Again, the cost of building heavy carbon panels, ACDA absorbers as well as Acoustic Field's QRD wood diffusers can run anywhere between $300 - $1500 just in material, not including labor and other business costs. I don't necessarily agree with all advice provided by Acoustic Fields, but there is a lot of good stuff to be learned from Dennis. I estimate I've spent close to $17k on converting and building out my dinning room. If I had paid Acoustic Fields to design and build my room, it could have easily cost $45 -$60k. The only way I was able to accomplish this was do it myself. I get it, it's tough to spend big money on acoustic treatment, but sometimes, it may require taking a big step to get the room sounding as good as it possibly can. My room is very small 15x13x9, but it sounds amazing down to 30Hz. See my Agon virtual system https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8747 |
shalommorgan, VERY impressive work and a really nice looking system. In an earlier post, I mentioned that I found the carbon panels conceptually intriguing. I did not realize one could purchase the plans and carbon from Foley to build the traps. |
@schlammorgan What an incredible room and you must be quite handy. Great job. I do not have those skills and I'm also not aiming for these Olympian peaks, so I suppose there are various tiers of accomplishment at which Foley's products and labor are more or less appropriate. My OP was really thinking about how his video was pitched at the kind of room some others have accomplished for much less, not a room like yours. |
Brownsfan1, Yes it is possible to purchase the carbon and possibly the plans from Dennis, but not sure if he still sells his build plans. I carefully combed through each one of his videos trying to reverse engineer everything he designed. I've figured out how to build every product he sells, putting my own design into some of them. As far as buying the carbon, I buy coconut activated carbon from another online distributor. Here is the thing, activated carbon is an wonder product. For 500hz and down, it can dramatically improve your listen experience. |
hilde45,Thanks! I had zero building experience when I started. Never built a thing in m life. Where there's a will, there is way. Anything for good music. |
Bull schlockey. He's selling treatments at unnecessarily high expense.
If there is a need for room treatment (pretty much EVERY room)....
Get a bunch of 5-foot artificial ficus trees. ~ $40 each from At Home (home furnishing store). Fabulous diffusers. Carefully spread the leaves and bend the branches so that they roughly parallel to the floor or maybe pointed up a little - like a REAL tree. Place about 2/3 of them behind the speakers, slightly out from the wall behind the speakers and between the speakers. Use two, one on each side, to take care of mid- and high-frequency wall bounce. Put a few along but not against the back wall. For less than $600, the room is full of attractive diffusers.
And they won't drop their leaves in the autumn.
I'm using abut 15 5-foot artificial ficus trees.in my listening room with quite excellent results. Others have reported similar results.
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I have an entire building surrounding my listening room with a couple of floors, bedrooms, bathrooms, 2 car garage...worth way more than 65 grand and it sounds great. |
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shalommorgan, Very impressive, looks smart and purposeful. Did you measure the room performance as you were adding treatment? @
pureaudio, wow, I am appalled at the good money you spent and without the reward. I sympathise. Re: Denis Fooley, what can I say? @
hilde45, I did offer a gentle warning about the above gentleman. It is really not necessary to pay that much to transform your room's performance. DIY goes a long way in keeping costs down. My 2 bass traps cost me about $220 Just these 2 made a huge difference but measurement shows that I need at least 1 more. @bpoletti. your dust collecting ficus trees unfortunately can not in any way address low frequency problems. Fact: Lambda = velocity divided by frequency, so a 40Hz wave is 343/40 = 8.58m, over 28ft. long. At 20Hz it is double that length! In the photo below is the start of a bass trap, built from cheap construction timber, plywood and rockwool, the closest equivalent to OC703 I could find. https://imgur.com/Lwx8NTR |
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That price for activated carbon above is totally out to lunch. Activated carbon starts at about $0.5/kg. Let's they need a specialty grade so 10x maybe. They aren't buying it on Amazon. Only highly refined scientific grades would be the cost quoted above.
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Well, I am truly in need of more education. My room treatment cost less then 0.5K |
Lemonhaze. I measured the room response with a small omnimic and cell phone. I was fortunate enough to build, change, add, subtract, listening and listening again as I worked through the build process. This gave me the ability to hear what worked and what didn’t. My ears guided me. (I’m now diving deep into room measurement tools/ software.) and yes it measures great down to 30hz.
A small room needs about 800-900lbs of activated carbon to provide meaningful results. I paid $165 per 50lb bag of coconut shell activated carbon. Just as a reference.
I agree that not everyone will spend the amount of time building out their own room, as I did. From a few acoustic panels to a world class music room, the important thing is we enjoy our time relaxing and listening to great music. Every room is different and will likely require a unique solution.
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I wouldn't waste five minutes on Foley's follies. Period. Just move on from him.
Just establish your budget, use REW and a good USB mic, begin with very low and low frequency mitigation, then first reflection treatments, starting with side walls and rear wall. Determine which products you can afford to purchase or that you can DIY, based on proven design effectiveness. Finally, determine what compromises you will have to make in terms of budget - what you can live with or be satisfied with. |
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shalommorgan, thanks. If you have tamed those wobbly waves down to 30Hz then your room should sound as good as it looks.
I will send you a PM shortly.
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I tamed wobbly waves down to 30hz with good speakers and Dirac. |
I think you might have to tear all your drywall out if you use this guy he hates drywall. He might be right, I have no experience with wood on walls instead of drywall. |
I just installed some 5 ACDA 10 and 8 ACDA 12 modules in my small room, about 2000 cubic ft. They were all custom made. Had to wait 9 months with all the shutdowns in California, but they did arrive.
The low end, below 100hz, is dramatically controlled now with minimal room boom. I do not have room readings, all I have is my ears. I have been a sound guy for large churches for 20 years. I had a ENT tell me I have "bat ears." I hear higher and lower than most humans. The mids and highs are clear and dynamic now in my room. Room is not dead or over absorbed.
I have GIK Acoustic 244 of different sizes to control the 100hz+ frequencies. Total acoustic treatment cost $7,500, and in my mind worth every penny.
Room is 50/50 HT 7.2.4 Dolby Atmos and stereo music. On a side note my wife of 22 years calls the room "The Mistress." |
