ABX testing with AQ Dragon power cords

What brand of cords, cables and interconnects do you normally use?

I have Mogami cables made by Take Five Audio in Canada. The speaker wire are Mogami 3104, XLRs are Mogami 2549 & the power cords are Powerline 10 with Furutech connectors. All cables are quite well made and I’ve been using them for about 5 years. 

I never heard the AQ Dragon but the Thunder, Tornado and Hurricane all made my system sound less coherent, with fatter bottom end and congestion in the soundstage. I have no AQ power cables now although I use AQ Diamond USB cable that I like between my streamer and DAC. 
 

If you can’t hear the difference, then you can’t hear the difference. Inviting non audiophile neighbors to assess the changes in sound of a system they are not familiar with and aren’t even trained to hear differences or be able to assess things like imaging and soundstaging is a completely useless endeavor. 
 

AQ Dragon is the top of the line power cord from Audioquest. My neighbors both have ears, 2 channel systems of their own and have spent time in my house listening to my gear. But you're right, they didn't show me their "audiophile" credentials.

@dwcda I’m going to let the sarcasm in your response slide. 
I’m well aware of what the AQ Dragons are. I also remember your adventure with a $80,000 Transparent cables where you also heard absolutely no difference.
 

So here’s my take on it…you either can’t hear the difference, which is totally fine…not everyone can, or this is a 🐂 💩 story. Cause it reads like one. With your neighbors helping you discern the difference between generic power cord and AQ Dragon. Lots of noise in these posts. So personally, I’m gonna call 🐂 💩 

"I called my dealer & he asked if the difference was earth shattering. I told him no & he asked how that was possible when he just sent similar cables to another customer last week with a similarly priced system as mine & that guy said that the SQ improved 50% and was ecstatic"

The fact that your dealer stands behind another customer who states his system improved 50% because of the addition of a power cord....leads me to believe that the customer and the dealer are full of crap.

Power cords certainly can make a difference..but the notion that it will make your system 50% better is laughable.

It wasn't meant to be sarcastic. When you said "I never heard the AQ Dragon" I misread that as I never heard of the AQ Dragon.

What part of my post is unbelievable? The fact that I heard no difference? Not much I can do to prove that. Or do you dispute the existence of the Dragon cords? I still have them, maybe a photo will do. As for my previous experience with cables I specifically said I swapped some Transparent Super speaker and XLR cables. No where near $80k.

I get that it's difficult to read experiences that don't match yours, but that doesn't make them any less real.

@krelldog we’re going off of hearsay here. No one knows what the dealer said or if  the dealer even said anything. We’re just reading one side of the story at best. 

The noise with neighbors in both your posts, the statement you claim the dealer has made, etc I doubt you have evaluated these cables  

It isn’t that you can’t hear the difference. That’s probably the only plausible part of your post.

There was no noise with my neighbors on the previous post. I said that I had neighbors interested in hearing the difference but my opinion of the sound is all that matters to me as I’m paying for it. Funny thing, you responded that Neighbor blind test is the ultimate one of them all. You get the true ABX blind test using non audiophiles who are not familiar with your system. Now that I had a neighbor listen you say it’s a useless endeavor.

What the dealer said isn’t terribly relevant to the premise that I tested some AQ Dragons with my power cords and heard no difference. As for your doubts that I evaluated these cords, here they are. Your need to not hear opposing experiences is making you look foolish.

Oh I have no experience with the aq dragon. And I never doubted the fact that you can’t hear the difference. Good to see you have these cables on hand. Proving that either your ear is immune to the differences or your system is just downright amazing and is resistant to any cable changes.
Good for you! Enjoy the mogami! 

Proving that either your ear is immune to the differences or your system is just downright amazing and is resistant to any cable changes.

There is a third possibility.

To add…I explained why having neighbors do the abx is useless in your first post. And repeated some of it here. But anyways…looking forward to your next post. AudioQuest Dragon power cords? Naaah.
Go big or go home. Nordost Odin, Shunyata Omega…I can give you few recommendations.

Very nice system.

When I put Hurricanes on my system, I was shocked. I had spent a year with Cardas, WireWorld, Transparent,  and a couple others and each would either be vailed or tip the tonal balance one way or another. Definitely, within ten seconds it was obvious my search was over. I have fifty years of experience with the high end… not in my head. 
 

This has been my experience, it does not in any way explain yours.

You know I’ve read the criticism of ASR and how badly they treat people with different opinions. My goal on posting my experiences here is not to stir up crap and cause trouble. If anything I’m providing a counterpoint. I’m not bashing those that believe power cords make a big difference nor am I demanding that you agree with me. They are valid experiences that support the contention that in some circumstances cables sound the same. But sarcastic posts as I’ve encountered here (audphile1) show that ASR isn’t unique, people don’t like to read experiences that differ from theirs. They find them threatening.

Your reply to my first post here was sarcastic. No one is disrespecting you for the difference of opinion. Don’t play the snowflake card now. 
Your experience is not threatening. You can’t hear what you can’t hear. That’s the end of it. 

No sarcasm. There are no audiophile credentials. My neighbors are as able to hear discernible differences in sound as you are. For some the entire premise of these threads when someone describes how two sets of cables sound the same is to diminish their experience. 

For the record, my dealer told me I should hear a difference in these cables within 10 seconds of playing. He welcomed the idea of asking my neighbors to listen. I welcomed him to come to my house and listen for himself. I can't imagine the reaction here if he can't hear a difference with a blind test, but he's willing to try.

My neighbors are as able to hear discernible differences in sound as you are. 

that I doubt 

For some the entire premise of these threads when someone describes how two sets of cables sound the same is to diminish their experience. 
 

Well let’s pick this apart a bit shall we?

you had tested a set of Transparent cables around $80,000 that sounded like your Mogami…simply indistinguishable. And you have just completed the evaluation of AQ Dragon power cords on your amp and preamp that also happened to prove that they’re indistinguishable from your generic power cords, to you and to your neighbors that participated in your abx.
 

The only thing diminished here is your ability to hear the difference. My experience is still good and isn’t diminished. 

Yes, let’s. First you refer to my experience as lies yet keep telling this $80k lie even after I corrected you.The Transparent Super speaker cables cost $2,200 and the two pairs of Super XLR cables sell for $1,600 each.

The Dragons sounded the same as these from TakeFive.

You blame my hearing since you have run out of other typical reasons (system not able to resolve, poor acoustics etc). But that would also mean that the owner of the other shop that lent me cables also has poor hearing. I have specifically not mentioned the brand of those cables as he’s a small manufacturer and I don’t want to harm his business. I still have those as well and can take a photo with the brand hidden if you're calling me a liar there as well.

Another possibility that you regularly ignore is that there was no difference to hear.

I got my dose of bullshit for this evening. I’m out. Be good. 

You posted a ton of it no doubt. You called me a liar, misstated what I'd posted repeatedly and I addressed every question, every lie and still you’re not happy.

Just imagine if I’m right about the identical nature of these cables how much money you’ve wasted.

OP COMPONENTS MAKE HUGE DIFFERENCE

CABLES POWER CORDS DONT MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE IF IT DOES ITS THEIR IMAGINATION  

Tempest in a teacup.

I would say if you can't hear a difference without straining or having to swap multiple times - then the utility of change is marginal.  Why spend an absurd amount of money when it's not going to improve your listening experience?  Why even pursue the dealer coming over?  Even if he does hear a difference - it should not make a difference for you and your listening endeavors. 

Just send it back.  It's not worth the aggravation or cost. 

I’m always amazed at how emotional these discussions become. This seems simple. If you don’t hear a difference, be happy that spending the money is unnecessary for your experience. Trust what you hear. I don’t understand why that would be upsetting to someone who has a different experience or vice versa. 
 

spend your money on something that does make a difference. This doesn’t seem difficult. My experience with trying different power cords, speaker, cables, etc., in my system is that the differences are discernible, but subtle, certainly nowhere near 50%. But if somebody else has a different experience either way  then so be it. 

@lordrootman +1! The OP was brave to post his results here because they are  upsetting to those so invested emotionally and monetarily in their gear!

OP ... great system!

Thanks for the post!  You have offended and impressed many

So he can’t hear the difference. Fine, he saved himself some money.

Untrained people that don’t know what to listen for are useless to evaluate high end stereos. My daughter says her iPhone sounds as good as my system…

I have Dragon HC, Cerious Matrix, Snake River Signature, SR Master Coupler and generic cords.

All sound different in the amount of detail, bass, mid, high frequency they provide.

Before trying a Dragon HC power cord on my preamplifier all of the power cords on my rig were the basic black power cords that come with new gear. I noticed a very nice improvement in sonics when I put the Dragon in. I kept it in the rig for a month and then returned it. I put the black cord back in. After a couple weeks of listening (I went through a bunch of my favorite music) I thought the rig sounded perhaps a little dull? There was something missing, it just didn't sound the same as I remember it sounding with the Dragon in there. I bought the Dragon HC and put it back in on the preamplifier and the initial improvement I heard was back. 

During the initial testing with the Dragon, I also improved all of the cables on everything except the turntable: mono blocks, phono preamp & power conditioner but they aren't as expensive as the Dragon was. To my ears, the biggest improvement came when I put the Dragon on the preamplifier.

My gear at the time of the power cord experimentation: Herron VTPH-2A, NAT Audio Symmetrical Balanced Line Stage, NAT Audio 805 Generator mono blocks, Transparent Powerbank 6.

Since then I've upgraded the mono blocks to NAT Audio Magma M HPS. 

There is one obvious point that seems to be ignored by both posters going at it back and forth: The quality of the electrical feed to the listening room. In my house of stereo, the electrical is completely separated from the main house and produces as clean and constant a feed as can be expected. The end result is power cords in my case make the smallest of improvements, if any at all, of all cables swapping I experience with. The most obvious differences in cables in my case are interconnects specially on the digital side of my system. So there is no wrong or right about power cables, it really comes down to your electrical feed first.

@vuch,  ​​@tom2015, @kerrybh,  @ghdprentice, @krelldog, @audphile1 -

                                               +1 (each)

        Understanding the plethora of variables we face in improving the performance of our systems, using common sense while taking advantage of the many ways we can try new additions to our systems for a mere pittance (ie: audition & Return Policies) and blocking out the INCESSANT, INTRUSIVE, ambient noise from the rabid Naysayer Church adherents, can go a long way* toward enhancing one's musical enjoyment.

                                             *a 50% improvement?

                                        100%: a subjective opinion!

           Music is one of the Arts and like any other art form: when it comes to what we enjoy, are listening for and desire from our systems varies widely, 

                                                 GET OVER IT!

What a long and drawn out tirade to explain you can't hear discernable changes in cabling. Don't buy them, you won. But wanting your dealer to hear your system in some odd attempt to prove them wrong or prove yourself right is a futile endeavor. 

+1 @baylinor 

Installing dedicated electrical lines to the stereo room has produced a similar experience… correct (as much as possible) the issue at it’s source.

When power cables make a Huge difference on highly engineered and market hardened equipment …well… 

I understand that not everyone has the opportunity to do so but if upgrading the panel and separate, electrical wires, boxes and outlets Can be done there are Huge rewards. (And diminishing returns on upgrades in power cables).

BTW… Take Five Audio are a first rate operation.

The companies producing these expensive power cords have no engineering data to corroborate their claims. Therefore Hitchins' Rule applies: That which is asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.

@rodman99999 I did exactly what you’re describing, I didn’t take anyone’s word for it, no one told me what to expect, I experimented with new cables 3x now and found no difference. I trusted my own senses. Yet still you’re pissed off at me for documenting these experiences. It’s almost like you’re only willing to hear things that you agree with.

As for the dealer coming by, he wants to hear for himself. I’m not trying to prove him wrong, I’m interested to see his reaction. If he could truly pick out his cables from mine reliably and blind I will have learned something. Maybe he could educate me to listen better as that seems to be my weakness. The same goes for the local cable maker. I’m going to be returning his cables in person and bringing mine. I look forward to be shown the error of my ways. I’ll gladly upgrade my cables if he could show me a reasonable improvement in SQ. It’s not the cost that bothers me, I don’t want to throw my cash away needlessly.

The companies producing these expensive power cords have no engineering data to corroborate their claims. Therefore Hitchins' Rule applies: That which is asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.

            Now: ask yourself, "Should I take advice from one that POSES as a FICTIOUS Intel Operator?"

                                  Now: some for something different:

     Back in March 2022: a thread about power cords and break/burn-in was started.

     I hate to type, so: I'm going to copy/paste some of my speculations.

     That a highly complex musical signal, MIGHT affect Poynting vectors and signal speeds*, in interconnects, in a much more profound manner than a simple AC (ie: a fixed 60/50 Hz) signal, in a PC, seems likely (at least) to me, as; in EVERY formula regarding *those two, a signal's frequency (frequencies) always factors in greatly.

     Further: the above and what I'll c/p (seems to me) lends credence to how the application of a stronger, DC voltage/field, outside a dielectric (ala Synergistic MPC and Audioquest DBS systems), might stabilize those vectors and signal speeds, PERHAPS eliminating some time smear and, "burn-in". 

rodman99999 5,456 posts 03-31-2022 at 12:13am    @holmz-       Bear with me a minute, in my folly, far as a possibility on why a power cord might make a difference.       Based on some of the theories on how electricity works, simplified:       The conductor acts as a waveguide for the signal/voltage.       Within the conductor: when excited by an AC current, electrons oscillate, generating photons/electromagnetic waves that travel, always from the source, to the load.        Keep in mind: all signals (ie: music, AC) are sinusoidal  waves        Those photons/electromagnetic waves travel through and outside the dielectric, which (according to it's permittivity/Poynting vectors) will have various effects on those waves.    One of the most obvious is the dielectric's effect on the speed of the signal.       The better designers of printed circuit boards, even take the above into account, when choosing materials for their products.        I posted a link on the first page that included data on the manufacture of semiconductor chips and what was observed when materials were cryo'd, during the process.     Short version: better contact/lowered resistance between layers.           Under the scanning microscope: much smoother surfaces observed.        I would hope, by now, it's a given that various cable constructions, twists, braids, etc, can make for a cleaner transmission of signals (ie: Litz, etc).                     Just seems to me (a hypothesis): given the above (some theories and some things established/measured/proven), it's not a big stretch to believe a power cord, built of the best conductor (ie: Ohno CC silver*), wrapped in a very low dielectric coefficient dielectric (ie: Teflon), cryo'd for the smoothest transfer of those photons/magnetic waves and twisted in some crazy way, might not smooth out some of perturbations/noise, from the crap an AC waveform had to go through, back to it's generator.  (run-on, much?)          *Many mention NOT noticing an improvement with upgraded PCs, when owning Pass Labs gear (KUDOS to Nelson).   Of MUCH interest is the fact that Frank Dickens, the owner of Silent Source cables is basically on staff with Pass and:they voice their equipment with his cables and power cords, made largely with Ohno CC metals.        I haven't tested this, actually comparing two circuits, but: it wouldn't surprise me, if a power supply that used a choke, would be less affected by a better power cord, as the former can eliminate a lot of the high freq garbage, etc, that's either created by, or makes it through all the big converting/filtering stuff, in the power supply, before.        Never thought about PCs before the good stuff hit the market, but: the Physics/QED made sense.             I tried 'em, I like 'em and the science makes my head feel better.                               Don't care WHAT it does to anyone else's!

rodman99999 5,456 posts 03-31-2022 at 12:27am         OH, and: it takes some time for the dielectric to form, take a charge, polarize, or however one chooses to define the process, when a dielectric is subjected to electromagnetic waves, which affects the Poynting vectors, measurably/predictably.                                             The lower the material’s dielectric constant: the longer that takes.                                                               PC (interconnect/etc)  burn-in?    Maybe?

                                                                                         Happy listening! 

@dwcda -

 Yet still you’re pissed off at me for documenting these experiences.

                                          I am?

                                           🤣

When your proof relies on such words as speculations,  seems likely (at least to me), lends credence, I would hope it's a given, just seems to me, not a big stretch to believe, I haven't tested this, it wouldn't surprise me.. you know you're speaking about subjective opinion and not substantive facts.

I can only tell you my history with powerlines and cables.  When I started on my journey of improving it, I had a dedicated 20A  line installed by a pro.  Not a great upgrade by itself, so I bought new powercords for all electronics which were highly touted by a audiopphile mag,  After a month or so there still was very little to no difference.  Hmm.  So I bought a audiophile rated wall outlet and in the process of taking out the old one, I noticed it was a lightweight $2 or so 15A outlet, stamped metal etc.  Afterward,  I listened to see the improvement and BOOM!  Music in living color literally jumped out of the speakers.  Moral of the story is that this was the weakest link in the powerline.  So that's what you should look for. 

I am?

                   Thank you for telling me how I feel!       

The shouting caps and repeated reference to the Church of Naysayers were my clues. That's not typically how calm differences of opinion are discussed.

                                 "substantive facts" ?

 Inescapable FACT: No one understands exactly how electricity works.     

              That’s why there’s so much Electrical THEORY.     

      The number of Wiki-Scientists on these pages, attempting to win the IG-Nobel Prize in Pseudo-Physics, is always amusing.             

       Whenever some highly educated person actually does discover exactly how electricity functions, they’ll be lauded by the scientific community, will have solved some of the disparities between Relativity and Quantum Mechanics, receive a Nobel and we’ll hear about it.     

      Newton’s THEORIES were largely superseded by Einstein and Bohr's.   Then came Feynman’s.       For now; none of you can absolutely prove your statements (theories), regarding electricity, FUSES, wires, or anything else, as regards our systems.    

             The following articles, read in sequence, illustrate my point:

 https://www.thegreatcoursesdaily.com/how-einstein-challenged-newtonian-physics/     

      then:

  http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Forces/qed.html#:~:text=Quantum%20 electrodynamics%2C%20co....               

       and: 

https://bigthink.com/hard-science/an-updated-feynman-experiment-could-heal-the-rift-between-quantum-mechanics-and-general-relativity/

           WELL: the Cargo Cult's building another runway.

                                         Time for a rewind:

Cargo cult science is a pseudoscientific method of research that favors evidence that confirms an assumed hypothesis. In contrast with the scientific method, there is no vigorous effort to disprove or delimit the hypothesis.[1] The term cargo cult science was first used by physicist Richard Feynman during his 1974 commencement address at the California Institute of Technology.[1]

Cargo cults are religious practices that have appeared in many traditional tribal societies in the wake of interaction with technologically advanced cultures.

     Do a bit a research and you'll learn those primitives were limited in their understanding, of what they saw with their eyes, based on their prior experience, education and BIASES.

                                                A rewind:

                 It isn't that the Denyin'tologists are ignorant.

               It's they're knowing* so much, that's WRONG.

                       *heart of the Dunning-Kruger Effect

                                              OR, two:

     The Church of the Naysayer Doctrine (like every other faith-based, religious cult) has as many dopes as it does Popes.   

     Bring up anything resembling SCIENCE/PHYSICS, dated later than the 1800’s and they become apoplectic, not having the formal education to comprehend the concepts, or- possible ramifications.    THAT would be hilarious, were it not so pathetic!        

           Gimme That Old Time Religion, Gimme That Old Time Religion, etc.

        At the very first mention of something as simple as Wave Function (a BASIC tenet of Quantum Mechanics), the Cargo Cult will label you a KOOK.

        But remember: they can only view/understand you, based on their limited experience, education and BIASES.

         They have overlooked the fact that, if not for the hypotheses/theories and experimentation, regarding Quantum Mechanics: a plethora of modern conveniences, medical devices and the gear they so love, would not exist.

          Had scientists, chemists and inventors shared the doctrines of the Cargo Cult (Denyin'tologists), there would be no semiconductors, computer chips, LASERs, or Magnetic Resonance Imaging devices (MRIs).

                                         Solid State amps?

                                     OOPS (back to tubes)!

                                        Your Smart Phone?

                                        FA'GET ABOUT IT!

                                         Your car's GPS?

                                                NOPE!

    Then too: some may be willfully ignorant and just enjoy being contentious.

                        Others: obtuse, uneducated*, misinformed?

      *Typically, from what's been exhibited here: H.S. STEM, if that, would be a safe inference.

      Either way: the result, when the Cult begins it's rhetoric is a classic demo of the Dunning- Kruger Effect.

                                          But, I digress: 

       Bring up those pesky details, regarding the likes of QED, Dielectric Absorption, Poynting's theorem and possible application/effects, relative to frequency, that our musical signals are carried via photon or wave, outside the conductor and you're a KOOK?

         Again: the Cargo Cult can only understand anyone with an actual background, experience and education in Physics/QED, based on their beliefs, education, experience and biases

                                      Remember this?

     One anecdote  that some may find interesting: their walks in the woods and how Feynman's father would encourage him to look beyond the fact that something in nature exists, but into why and how.

     It saddened him that while attending college, during a visit home and one of their walks: his dad asked what he was learning in college.

     At that moment, he realized: if he tried to explain what he was learning, there was no way his dad could understand.                               

                            It wasn't an insult or condescension.

                                                Just reality.

                                    Oh well: let 'em go build a runway!

                                                    references:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applications_of_quantum_mechanics#:~:text=Examples%20include%20lasers%2C%20electron%20microscopes,systems%2C%20computer%20and%20telecommunication%20devices.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chadorzel/2015/08/13/what-has-quantum-mechanics-ever-done-for-us/?sh=37c459944046

https://uwaterloo.ca/institute-for-quantum-computing/quantum-101/quantum-applications-today

          But: I'm a kook, because I believe in the SCIENCE, from which all that sprang?

     https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/five-practical-uses-spooky-quantum-mechanics-180953494/

           Einstein got that last one wrong (Quantum Entanglement), BUT- I still wish he'd been alive, when the Hubble Telescope proved, what he considered his, "greatest blunder" (his inability to bring symmetry to his field equation, without lambda).

  https://www.aps.org/publications/apsnews/200507/history.cfm#:~:text=Einstein's%20original%20equations%20had%20been,how%20the%20universe%20will%20end.                                            How about that?

Another example of a hypothesis/theory, with no way to EXPERIMENT/MEASURE, what you're sure must be there, in some detectable way, or another.

                                               Just for fun:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/6-times-quantum-physics-blew-our-minds-in-2022/

                                            Happy listening!

@rodman99999 If I believe in science to determine whether cables make a difference you say I'm in a cult. If I trust my ears and audition cables and decide there is no difference you ignore that and c/p reams of arguments that have nothing to do with my post. Given your posts and mine on this thread, who do you think an objective observer would guess was in a cult?

Can you hear the sound difference from my new video?

2 Power cords sound test

Your ears should be neutral for the test. Please equalize your ears (pinch nose and blow very gently and swallow saliva) and speak "Hello" to yourself 5 times.

1) click 3:51. open YT window.

2) In YT, make a small YT window (narrow & tall, right half screen) to see the video screen and 2 time stamps (3:51, 9:37 in description) are in the same screen.

3) Listen at least 1 minute each and repeat. Just relax and feel what comes to your ears when you click.

** Please visit my room (#272) at THE Show 2024, OC. Costa Mesa audio show on June 7-9. Alex/WTA

@rodman99999 waste of time. His neighbors said there’s no difference. 
 

@audphile1 The owner of the amp/cable company heard no difference. He still thinks that there is a reason for it and is working to help me determine why. Unlike you, my mind is not closed to other opinions. I have no skin in this game, my ego doesn't need me to be right. If I can be shown that these cables are worth buying I'll ante up and be happy for the improved SQ. You argue and call people liars to protect your fragile ego.

dwcda,

Do you think if you pull the speakers out further into the room you would then hear a difference? I love SF speakers but I think they're too close to the front wall, if you go to the CARDAS site you can plug in the width of your room into their formula and it will tell you how far away from the front wall and the sidewall the speaker should be, When I did that my sound stage just opened up incredibly.

@zuesman The front edge of the speaker is 4' from the wall. I've tried other positions and this was the best for me. There is a 7" monster bass trap behind each speaker and a 17" square soffit trap in the corner. The soundstage is great.