Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD

Matt, How did you determine how many views this thread has got?, I did not know someone can do that.

The person who starts the thread sees the view count.
Go to your home page and then select Forum Threads on bottom left. If you started the thread or have a Virtual System it shows you a view count.

AudioLabrynth, Audiogon shows the viewcount for all threads that you have started. If you simply respond to a thread instead, its viewcount is not shown in your threads list.

Guido

What is the record for most hits I wonder? I also wonder if this thread will have a shelf life (ie how many posts are allowed before it self locks). I'm on a sports board and have started a few threads that went 30 or so pages that was all that it could fit. Matt, thanks. It really is very interesting for those of us who won't ever be able to purchase any of these units, lol.

Albert Porter's Virtual System has 68 pages, 3389 posts, no idea how many views but I would imagine its in the hundreds of thousands…. Not really important, just interesting to note.

We all love Albert, but don't forget he sells Porta Ports so that could give him more hits than usual.

UPDATE:

First off, I ran the ODSE direct to my amps using the Final Drives. ODSE set with the recessed switches to activate the volume control and adjust the output to match amplifier direct. Wired - ODSE XLR out to Final Drive XLR in (all gains on the FD set to 0db) and FD XLR out to Merrill Veritas XLR in. Everything was set properly (confirmed with Steve) but even with the volume control knob activated and on its most counter-clockwise position (supposed to be zero output) I was still getting a decent amount of volume through the speakers; moderate listening level I would say. Loud enough to hear from 2 rooms away with all doors open, but soft enough to have a conversation in the room. The volume knob did make the music louder when rotated clockwise, so it was clearly activated and functioning. I contacted Steve several times and he was always responsive and helpful. To be honest, I'm not sure whats going on.

I turned the volume knob up to about 9 o'clock on the ODSE (which set a reasonably loud listening level equivalent to my normal level) and sat down for a listening session with the attitude that, although the volume compatibility issue was confusing I was not causing any damage to anything and when set to the proper listening level it would still represent the sound as it normally would for a ODSE/FD direct to amp set up.

Without going into detail, I preferred running the music through my pre-amplifier. It sounded very very good without the pre-amp and I think that it would probably best most inexpensive pre-amps. But I have now run several DAC's direct and I always prefer the sound when running through a pre-amp. In all honesty, I was heavily jaded in the direction of wanting to like the FD as it would have given me the ability to sell my $$$$$ pre-amp and redirect that money elsewhere. Alas, I still need my trusty Criterion.

I welcome Steve to chime in here, as I can't say for sure that I am giving the ODSE/FD direct to amp a proper audition with the strange volume issue. It may sound better if the volume incompatibility issue was resolved. But logically, as nothing sounded overdriven I assumed the volume pot is misaligned or the DAC provided a bit too much gain, or I have no idea and I'm just making it up as I go…. lol. I just want to be fair and not misrepresent Steve's products.

I can say that the ODSE still sounds fantastic running through my pre-amp and sucks me into that happy place moments after I start listening.

Next was my 400-420 hour listen of the Rowland Aeris. OK, let me restate that; I didn't listen for 400 hours, I listened AFTER is has been running for 400 hours… hehe. Burn in appears to have a rather dramatic effect on the Aeris as I have read and been told. With 400+ hours on it, the Aeris is losing it's brighter highlights and becoming increasingly complex in its presentation. The bass has actually become a bit less controlled, which is weird but I have heard that the highs and lows waver until it stabilizes at 700+ hours. Its soundstage is truly opening up and becoming more vast and more accurate in its image placement. At 400 hours I am, however, starting to define some consistencies in its voice. It presents a complexity to the music that no other DAC I have heard offers. What I can't tell is whether it is pulling things out that others can not, or creating artifact where none truly exists. For now, I will tuck it away and continue to burn it in for it's final 280'ish hours and run a final comparison.

At this moment in time, I am STILL enjoying the absolutely beguiling ODSE. It does not have the complexity of the Aeris, nor the masterful recreation of tone and texture that the Aeris is starting to display. The Aeris will, when fully broken in, clearly control lower frequencies more definitively and have a wonderful, expansive soundstage. But the ODSE is a black hole - you can't turn it on and start listening and not get sucked in. It's like getting hugged by the right girl, you don't feel the arms or the body or the breath on your neck (although they are all there and rather enjoyable), you just close your eyes and sink into the utter magic of the moment. IF the Aeris blossoms and develops this quality, then it will be the best DAC I have ever heard. Guido, Csmsart, and many others are telling me it will. We shall see…..

FINALLY - many have been waiting for the arrival of the PS Audio Direct Stream. Well it has arrives and here we go….

Build and appearance - It is, pretty much, the identical unit to the PerfectWave II. The only perceivable different, other then the different name silkscreened on the front, is that the PW2 has a flat rectangular light next tot the touchscreen and the DS has a round light. Other then that, they are the same. the touchscreen itself has a simpler layout and way less options. It identifies input (PCM or DSD) and resolution of the input. The touchscreen is very responsive and the entire unit is crafted to very high standards with exceptional parts and build quality throughout. The back is well laid out. The power switch is far enough away from the PC slot to allow use of thick, aftermarket cables (like the Shunyata Zitron Alpha digital) and the USB and XLR connectors were solid and secure. I chose silver and it looks very nice. It is heavy and feels like a proper high end kit.

Upon plugging it in, the USB was immediately identified and it started playing music without issue or incident. I left the volume output on the DS at 100% and thats where it will stay. I may try running it direct to amp if I decide to keep it, otherwise I will do the entire audition running it through my Criterion using the same exact XLR and USB cables I have been using all along.

First impressions - I know everyone is telling me to burn it in for 500 hours (20 days). I will start that process asap. I did set it up and listen as I am very curious. After doing this with the Aeris, I know that first impressions are essentially worthless. My first reaction was that I didn't hear anything that I was missing when listening through my other DAC's. The hype suggested that I will hear magic that doesn't exist with any other DAC. Well, not yet…. My second reaction was that this DAC will be much better then the PW2, even out of the box that is obvious. It definitely has potential and can rub elbows with the other DAC's I am playing with. Other then that, it was too warm in the mids, bright up top and utterly misguided on the low end. It sounded as if I had a layer of plastic wrap around my head (which I almost wished I did at some points). BUT, as I said, it is brand new and needs many many hours of break in.

I will admit that I am skeptical of the Direct Stream competing favorably with the ODSE or the Aeris as the later two are SO good! The DS is $6K retail. The Aeris is almost $10K retail, and the ODSE is about $7500- retail without Steve's occasional show discounts. But Steve doesn't need to mark up the ODSE to cover advertising/marketing costs which add a LOT to the PS Audio and Rowland kits. I would imagine the ODSE would be about $10K retail if he was a bigger firm and had the marketing/advertising overhead that the big guys spend…

I will keep an open mind though, I promise, and just tell you what my ears hear.

That's it.

fin

Matt- Keep the DS at 100 and engage the 20db attenuator during burn in, it makes the Dac work a bit harder and burns in a little quicker that way. Dis-engage the 20db attenuator when you're listening..

"Everything was set properly (confirmed with Steve) but even with the volume control knob activated and on its most counter-clockwise position (supposed to be zero output) I was still getting a decent amount of volume through the speakers"

The Overdrive volume technology does not go to zero volume. This is normal. It has internal jumpers that can reduce this more, but if a normal listening level is at 9-12:00 on the dial, this is perfect. Muting can always be used if you want it quiet. It is better to have better control of listening volume IMO. A knob that goes from quiet to really loud in just a few degrees of rotation is not good IMO.

Some amps will sound better with a preamp than the FD. Its not really the difference between the Overdrive volume and the preamp that you are hearing. Its the fact that the preamp has a lower output impedance and the amps like this more. Its possible to wire the FD's to lower the volume by 6dB and lower the impedance of the Overdrive by a factor of 4. This would probably help here.

I would also like to hear what the effect of putting the Final Drives between the DAC and preamp. It is usually placed at the DAC, but can also be at the destination. The transformer is grounded to the destination.

Thanks,
Steve N.
Empirical Audio

Matt,

Another review of the PS Audio DirectStream was just posted:

http://www.audiostream.com/content/ps-audio-directstream-dac

Thankyou Gentleman, I did not know that about view count on audiogon.

Matt, that must be really a special pre-amp to beat out direct to amps, I am impressed!, You have got my interest in your Prized Roland Pre-amp, I know you are quite busy with this going on, maybe you can get the time to P.M. me and elaborate on this speacial pre-amp, no hurry, just do not forget me, about that pre-amp, thanks Matt, best Regards.

Aeris, Aeris, Aeris!!!

This is too easy to predict.

AGear. I'm not sure why you say that.
I actually just emailed Guido and told him that his prized Aeris better turn a corner in the next 300 burn-in hours or I'm keeping the ODSE (or DirectStream if it blows me away). I have absolutely no bias towards one or the other. Just looking for the best of the best.

FYI - I am leaving for Boston today and won't be back until Wed. I'm following on my phone but no updates will be posted.
Aeris and DS will cook while I am away.

Matt- Just an FYI there is new firmware for the DS that was just released yesterday. Your unit is pretty new and could already have it. Just check the screen (push the little gear in the upper left corner) the newest firmware is 6115, the older is 5417 .. Nice improvement with the new firmware.

Go Matt!, I enjoyed you last few post concerning the Aeris and ODSE, awsome, look forward to your impressions, mmm, the ODSE could win win this out?, May the winner take in Huge sales deservingly so!

AGear. I'm not sure why you say that.

Because of language like this:

At this moment in time, I am STILL enjoying the absolutely beguiling ODSE. It does not have the complexity of the Aeris, nor the masterful recreation of tone and texture that the Aeris is starting to display...

Vast black spaces that accurately frame the complexity of a sonic landscape along with accurate tone, and texture. Hmmm. Besides, beguiling is a good word for a dalliance, but not someone you marry. :/

For purely entertainment purposes, I would love to hear a formal comparison of the ODSE, Romulus Signature, and Lampizator L7 but it ain't going to happen. Too bad. I just ordered my single box L7....

Thank you Matt for the thoughtful update.

As I suspected, after the 400 or 450 hours mark, Aeris would start a gradual normalization of treble artifacts. I still expect some fluctuations throughout the audible bandwidth for a while. My experience with Aeris, as well as other Rowland components is that they are late bloomers... They continue to break-in and bloom at least until the 1200 hours mark. At 700 to 800 hours, they give a semi-reasonable idea of their capabilities, but they still do not yield their best.

BTW, I have confirmation from the Rowland factory that Aeris delivers its best performance through its SPDIF inputs, which are transformer-coupled for optimizing common mode noise rejection, galvanic isolation, and impedance stability... This will be particularly effective if Eris is fed from a transformer-coupled source. It is interesting to note that Rowland feeds Aeris mostly through the Bryston BDP-2 server/player, which has implemented transformer coupling on its SPDIF and XLR outputs.

No, I am not using the Bryston player in my system yet... I am a dinosaur, and am still using the Esoteric X-01 as a source.

G.

Ok guys....1000 hours and over of needed break in? I am a audiofool of huge proportions and understand and buy into the whole notion of break in.

But when we start talking 1200 hours I guess I am not worthy of the full Aphile title. That is simply beyond my experience and understanding. 1200 hours! Yikes! If said piece really takes that long, count me out. I don't think it changes after 400-500 at most, but have at it.

If one listens to their system 2 hours daily on average, then it would take the better part of two years before one actually hears what said player is capable of. Ha!

Better ask for a two year trial period from your local high end retailer. I trust one hears what the unit will ultimately sound like after 500 hours at most. Anything after that is due to changes in mental state, one's physical fluctuations, humidly, lack of humidity, time of day, type of food just consumed, adult beverage consumed, position in listening chair, ear wax level and on and on. No kidding guys. My system, as is, sounds different day to day due to factors beyond break in.

If you have listened enough days to a unit with 500 hours, rest assured you have indeed heard the unit for what it is. That same unit will indeed sound different, in your same system, next year on any particular day for a whole host of reasons both understood and not understood...... but no longer because of break in.

Ok, let the Aphile community roast me know.

I was so nervous about the pending Aphile onslaught that I made a mistake. Sorry. Meant to type "roast me now, not know" .

Bill,
I raised that issue earlier in this thread as well, the notion of extraordinarily long break in is puzzling. What choice of a part, material, construction techniques etc is responsible for this? I accept the general premise of necessary break in. It would seem that transformers, capacitors, wiring and other parts should be reasonably seasoned after 200-300 hours (that's quite a long period). Could someone explain the underlying reason for extreme break in periods? What in the world is taking place during all those hours?
Charles,

My amp seemed to continue to sound better up to 1.5yrs from new. I used it about 15hrs a week. I am not sure why but here is a theory. The better amps eventually align all the molecules and atoms and other things all the way back to the power plant and out to the speakers. Thus creating a more coherent non nasty flow of atoms and molecules and stuff. Why else would it take so long? Yea that is it.

And why does break-in ALWAYS makes a component sound better and NEVER worse? What's the science behind that?

Perhaps it is just me Grannyring... But most pieces I had had in my system took that long, or even more... Esoteric X-01 and K-01 for example, both about 1200 hours... And my Vienna Die Muzuik speakers took 1500 hours... Even my old
ARC Ref3 took about 1K hours to fully bloom. I remember evaluating a very expensive twin-box player once upon a time... I did throw in the towel when I reached the 2K hours mark and realized that the device had stabilized, with no musicality to show for the effort.

I fully admit that I am excruciatingly patient when evaluating a component... If in the end I really like a device, I then use it for several years... So, even 1500 hours, becomes a perfectly reasonable investment of my time, when I consider it against the long run enjoyment.

I suspect I do not even know how to spell cwik gruddiphicationn *grins!*

G.

Hi again Grannyring, When I break in a component, the device is exercised 24/7 until it stabilizes... For Aeris, I fed a signal into it, such as a break-in CD, and let the DAC feed into the Criterion preamp on 0 volume.... In one week I had 168 hours already... The 1K hours mark was just shy of 5 more weeks away, and after one more week I was close to 1.2K hours... I sampled results every few days. G.

I fully admit that I am excruciatingly patient when evaluating a component

I am too, and while the breakin thing sounds like witchcraft, its real in my experience as well. A lot of ADD audiophiles miss out on good gear due to the lack of patience...

Long break-ins are usually a result of a LOT of plastic dielectrics in the design; capacitors, cabling and circuit boards. IME, its better to use non-plastic dielectrics like ceramic, paper-in-oil and cotton. These require virtually no break-in and actually sound better than the plastics, even when the plastics are fully broken-in.

This is why I really like Jensencapacitors.com air-core inductors, ceramic caps and the Duelund caps. Great for speaker crossovers, actually the best on the planet.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

I personally have only had 1 piece of equipment that I heard break in. Oddly enough it was a Roland Capri. I don't know how many hours it had on it but it was almost new. I had it about a month and pretty much hated it from the beginning. Then one day I was listening with the volume up a bit and boom, the right channel just changed in tone and one second after that the left channel changed. A veil had been lifted and the harshness on the top end went away. It was like night and day and it changed enough that I kept it for a couple of years before I moved on. I didn't believe in break in before that and have not heard a change like that again. My guess is that it was the capacitors burning in at that moment but I don't claim to know. Other than that I'm with Grannyring, I think more likely it's us who changes and we just simply get used to a different sound of a new component after a certain amount of time. I also believe for me anyway the sound changes from day to day or hour to hour depending on me, not the gear. I mean what's more likely, the equipment is changing or the life form that's listening to it?

Understand all the comments and even yours Steve. 1200 hours seems excessive and I am darn near positive any small changes are due to something else. I'll say it again, my gear changes on some days or day parts and it has nothing to do with break in. Even our electricity changes with day parts, time of year..... moisture in the air also impacts sound.

I learned that turning my past SS amps off for a short period and then turning them back on made them sound better after warm up if my amps were left on for many days or weeks at a time. I usually least SS amps on 24/7. Again, nothing to do with burn in.

After 500 or so hours we are no longer talking about burn in IMHO.

Yes, I run my gear 24/7 when new to speed up the process.

I just downloaded the new DS Firmware update. Pretty impressive with more "air". How do they do that?

Bill (Grannyring), regarding your comments about humidity being a significant variable, here is some remarkable confirmation, from this current thread:

06-17-14: Georgelofi
... this [humidity] is greatly overlooked. Take any hybrid ESL speaker for instance, they are tuned for a certain sound by the factory. The esl panel on a day when the humidity is 70%-100% can loose as much as -3db efficiency, making the balance sound bass heavy as the dynamic bass driver has not lost this -3db.

I have measured it on my new panels, dry day 5kv bias charge and on a humid day 3kv-4kv bias charge, I tend not to do any evaluations or serious listening on days when the humidity is above 70%. Or if I have to, I can with some trouble turn down the gain of the bass electronics by the appropriate amount so all is balanced again.

Best regards,
-- Al

Thank you Steve. Yes, I have amps with ceramic boards, Jensen caps, and lots more esoteric goodies inside... Amazing sound from the get go... And then they kept improving.... By 1500 hours, my amps were awesome. The delightful Merrill Veritas took a little less: By 1K hours they were stable. This has been my consistent experience for the last 30 years.

Of course, Your OD DAC might very well have a very different break-in curve... Unfortunately, I have not had the opportunity of verifying its break-in pattern and its sound in my system. G.

In the course of breaking something in, over the subsequent several weeks or whatever I might change or add any number of things in the system, clean contacts, that sort of thing. There's no way I can track how the thing I'm breaking in is coming along. There's no way I'm going to listen for a bunch of capacitors to break in. The system sound changes constantly. Am I the only one who can't tell when something's finally broken in?

Lets all put 2000 hours or more and fully break in our components. How about 2 to 5 years and then just maybe they will be broken in. This is crazy you get use to the sound at that point, break in still I doubt it.

Break in real and patience is a must. 1200 hours is no longer break in, but other things factor in the day to day nuances of our systems.

Steve,
I for one believe that synthetic materials generally seem to require extended burn in time compared to the natural materials. I also share your impression that natural material products tend to sound better more often than not.

Matt,

You wrote, "I may try running it direct to amp if I decide to keep it, otherwise I will do the entire audition running it through my Criterion..."

From what I've read, I *strongly* recommend that you try running the DS direct to amp before making a final decision. You might want to thoroughly A/B direct versus the Criterion.

I know of a couple of people who have gone direct DS-to-amp and have declared it to be better than running through a pre.

In my own experience, I recently demoed an ARC Ref 5se between my PS Audio PWD II DAC and amp, and it was worse than terrible! Such a highly vaunted preamp, and yet the result was like taking 100 steps backward. Though we gave it a number of hours for testing, we knew within 30 seconds that it simply didn't work. (Great way to save $13K, to boot.)

I'm just concerned that if you don't try direct-to-amp, you may be missing something big in the DS.

Rob

Where is the Asthetix digital players?, Are you still going to audition them Matt?

I don't think anyone is denying that equipment needs break in. It just does not need 1200 hours to do it.

@Jwm, My PSA PWD-MkII took a month to fully break-in. Now, I wasn't feeding it digital input 24/7, but it was powered on for the duration. After two weeks it was at its nadir. At the end of a month it had blossomed and pretty much reached it's performance plateau. So that's around 720 hours. Had it maxed out at the two week point, I would have sent it back. My ARC REF-3 also took a month to settle in.

Not having any dogs in this hunt, but definitely interested in the outcome, I agree with Matt's chosen audition methods. In fact, I applaud his efforts and am happy that he has established specific processes and has advised us of same.

If 500 to 700 hours of burn-in aren't enough, too bad. If one's in burn-in denial, an "absolute top tier" DAC thread probably isn't your cup of tea. So, now that we’re in agreement that burn-in has its importance, all we need to do is debate the length.

Somewhere between 300-700 hours of burn-in should be enough. Heck, my audio memory couldn't handle more than that. In fact, after a few hundred hours, I'm not sure that I could tell, or really care how hour 250 compared to 430, 670 etc…. How would I really know when the golden hour was reached or more importantly, really believe that someone else would arrive at the same golden hour conclusion as I?

If DAC's ran through Matt's pre-amp aren't getting the best out of one DAC or another, tough! Based on the myriad of posts regarding the pre-amp vs direct approach, at best, this topic is controversial and while most of us have our beliefs based on experience, they dramatically differ. However, as long as Matt tests all the DAC's using the same approach, that’s ok by me!

If the tube voiced and sold with a DAC doesn't bring the magic, oh well. I do roll tubes and absolutely believe that doing so has quite positive results! However, if a DAC's factory supplied tube(s) must be rolled to be competitive in tests such as this, then why doesn't the DAC designer sell his DAC with the tube of magic? I know: because NOS tubes are scarce, expensive, hard to source etc.

However, the DAC's design and its designers voicing, including tube complement, should stand on its own when comparing like-components. If DAC "C" can't compete with Matt's other DAC choices because DAC "C"'s design isn't good enough with its designer's tube(s) of choice, then perhaps the designer should change their design to make it competitive as it is shipped.

With the exception of the need for some burn-in, connection methods, tube types, IC's, PC's, footers, silver bowls hung in space, are all ancillary to what Matt is doing. I know we all have our chosen connection method, cable, tube, footer, stand, IC, PC etc., but how can Matt use what we think works best with specific DAC's etc.?

IMHO, let each DAC out-of-the-box stand on its own with every other DAC. As long as they are burned-in, connected, and affixed electronically and in space, the exact same way, it's all good!

I agree Mrmb, good point!

One of the best posts in this whole thread is Mrmb's. At this price point, most designs are or should be price no object in regards to tubes. If tubes aren't going to be available, then what will the owner do when their magic tube is done?

I can't wait for John to get the Aesthetix in and burned in (but not until after he delivers my new Vandy Treo's and Basis TT ;) ), lol.

It will be interesting to see how it stacks up in Matt's system/room vs the other DAC's. I've found that the Aesthetix gear is highly musical with one of the best midranges in the industry. They seem to understand live music and not just 'high end audio'.

06-22-14: Kernelbob
@Jwm, My PSA PWD-MkII took a month to fully break-in. Now, I wasn't feeding it digital input 24/7, but it was powered on for the duration. After two weeks it was at its nadir. At the end of a month it had blossomed and pretty much reached it's performance plateau. So that's around 720 hours. Had it maxed out at the two week point, I would have sent it back. My ARC REF-3 also took a month to settle in.

That's interesting. Not to be argumentative, when I had PSA PWD-MkII, I heard no noticeable changes after ~50 hours.

In general, I agree with Grannying ... my system sounds different depending on my mood, alertness ...

I'm dying for an update!

Erik, Matt indicated that he would be away until Wednesday... Updates might need to wait for a couple more days. G.

Thanks.. Must have missed that

Cstooner, it seems you need to hear the Lampi L7 (using 45 DHT power amp tubes). Feedback so far is that its a barn burner. Check out the thread at CA.

It doesn't even need more than 40 hours/3 days of burn in to announce its intention to the world. The apparently impossible, realized?