I wanted to send a big Thank You out to Merrill of Merrill Audio (another lone wolf manufacturer who builds every piece by hand).
He loaned me a set of 2m RCA and XLR cables to do my shootout. They are exceptional and reasonably priced for how good they are. Merrill is very generous with loaning cables for auditions, especially since very few come back (ie. most auditions end in a purchase).
Google Merrill Audio and check it out. My Veritas monoblock amps are ridiculously good!!!! He also just introduced a Phono stage that the owner of VPI said was amongst the best he had ever heard. Check it out! |
Guido. I openly admit I would get better results with one of Steve's OffRamp USB to spdif converters. If I had an unlimited budget, I would have tried that.
But your statement needs to be reiterated. If you are planing on using a transport, especially transformer coupled, then the Aeris will sound better then my evaluation described. How much better, and what the differences would be I do not know. That is for me to not know and you to find out. ;) |
PS - my Core Audio Mac Mini has a solid state hard drive. No spinning disks. |
Hi Matt,
Just finished the DSD-S for you. It is singing nicely. :-)
I will put around 100 hours on it before shipping it to you, but it will require more, of course. However, since most active devices on the signal path are MOSFET, the DSD-S sounds quite nice even when brand new, especially after 30 min warm-up, similar to tube electronics. :-)
Best,
Alex Peychev
APL Hi-Fi |
Synchro-Mesh and Of-Ramp have 30-day money back, less shipping. You just waited too long.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Hi Matt, very nice that your MacMini already on SSD. Friend of mine made comparison in last couple of days between hard drive (do not remember brand) and Samsung 840 EVO 1TB SSD... He asserted that the SSD delivered harmonically denser images... I believe he may be using a MacMini re-hosted to Windows 7 into a Teac UD-501 DAC via a Prana USB cable.
Here are some additional twists for the permanently obsessive.... Does the SSD technology standard matter? 2.5 inch, vs MSATA, vs M.2... What about the SSD controller? What about the SSD brand, series, model? All things that potentially we can obsess about.
Admittedly, I am still a dinosaur... I am feeding Aeris SPDIF through the Esoteric X-01 coax output.... I do not believe X-01 SPDIF to be transformer-coupled. I will probably let music server technology steep for a bit yet before I take the plunge... Amongst other things, I need to make sure that the UIs to control the servers are fully interoperable with my non-visual access technology.
G. |
Hi Guido,
The SSD is indeed superior to HDD, however, a linear 5V power for it is a must, otherwise it sounds somewhat mechanical to my ears, especially noticeable at the upper mids and highs.
The Esoteric X-01 is sure transformer coupled at the S/PDIF output, but since you already have a transformer inside your DAC, this is not that important. The main objective of a pulse transformer at the S/PDIF is ground isolation.
The Esoteric runs on twin R-Core linear supply, so actually a transformer-less digital transmission might be better since the transformers sometimes introduce unwanted artifacts.
Saluti,
Alex |
Back and forth over this Empirical Audio product ( Ozzy vs S. Nugent) doesn't make me feel warm and fuzzy... This is a perfect example of why manufacturers probably should stay off public forums... |
Thank you for the Esoteric arcana Alex... Did not know that X-01 SPDIF out was transformer coupled... At some point in the future, I might replace X-01 with a music server.
Saluti, G. |
Erikminer- I can only speak from my own experience.
Before I started the thread and before there was any secondary gain for Steve, he was responsive (like same day) to his emails and phone calls, and he was clear and specific about his payment and return policies. He was (and is) quote confident about his gear and is very honest about the upgrades and what they accomplish. He also told me that he is constantly tweaking and fine tuning his gear and offers improvements to his established customer base as they are available; for a minimal fee.
He is clearly a talented and passionate audiophile engineer. His fund of knowledge, very well laid out policies and quick email response led me to try out the OverDrive SE. And boy am I happy I did!!!
Ozzy - There are always 3 sides to every story. Theirs, yours, and the truth.
Be careful to criticize someone when their livelihood is at stake. You may do more damage then you intended. Especially on a Forum.
That all being said. I have not owned long term and do not know Steve's policies or how he handles an issue or problem after the warranty is up...
All I know is that he makes a hell of a DAC!!! |
Does anyone know if there is a way to edit a post after it's submitted? My occasional typos are driving me nuts! And sometimes I think of something to add to a post I just submitted and then need to post a second time..... |
FWIW, I've worked with Steve for a couple of years now, and have always found him responsive, fair, and above all, very knowledgeable. Are we best buds? No. Do I appreciate his insights and presence? Absolutely. |
I have also found Steve to be very responsive and helpful. |
Matt,
I posted my actual experience with dealing with Steve. Others may have had different experiences.
Before you crown a winner, I just thought it would be important to note that you are dealing with a one man show subject to any conditions he wants to impose.
APLHIFI, Alex, is another one man show that I have purchased products from. Excellent designer, fantastic products. He always treated me fair with no problems. However, he got sick and way behind on his production.
Some people waited for over a year for his products!
There was an extremely long thread on Audiogon about this.
One should compare that to other companies such as PS Audio that have actual service and customer service departments.
Of course, as I stated earlier these were my actual experiences and YMMV. |
Ozzy, thanks for your input! Matt is correct that several negative posts can hurt such manufacturers like Steve and me. After what happen back in the days, I worked very hard to improve customer satisfaction, and I think I did it. :-) As for PS Audio, such company cannot be compared to what Steve does, for example. We are talking about pure all-hand-made boutique that is made with the best possible components, free of any budgets. At least this is how I feel about this subject. As for servicing, the Electronic Express service center in Chicago is fully authorized to service all of my products, both warranty and out-of-warranty, and they have done a great gob over the past few years. So I think there are no worries about that. Best wishes, Alex |
I thought the OP started this thread to describe his comparison of products? Complaints about one-man shows etc. belong elsewhere. |
Ozzy said, "I posted my actual experience with dealing with Steve."
Actually, no. You were having a terse conversation with Steve within this otherwise useful thread. I don't believe that you objectively reported on your experiences for the benefit of others here.
My opinion is that it should have been taken offline with Steve directly. Instead, we all had to bear witness to your frustrations.
I even hesitated to post this, as it, too, detracts from Matt's fine work here. I recognize that. |
Matt, Audiogon is a bit of a "homegrown'" posting system... There is an ability for editing a post, kind, sort of, and it depends... That is... The thread must be on a single page, and your post to be edited must be the very last post on the thread... If your post is on page 2 or beyond, Or someone posted after you, you are out of proverbial luck.... I have communicated the problem to Audiogon more than once, and met with summary dismissal of my concerns. G. |
Rhanson739, What other reason would I have???
I have been a long time Audiogonner and "I states it as I hears it", to share my experience with others. |
I like dealing with small, one man companies. Almost all of my gear comes from such a business. I find a big correlation between these types of creative and talented folks and great sound quality. I also learn a ton more about the piece as they more often share much more over the phone and by email.
I like the relationship I can have with the owner/creator. My experiences have been wonderful with " one man" companies, but like everything in life, others may have had a different experience.
I don't think this is the place to gripe on an experience however. That should be done by the two parties off-line .... Period. |
It's interesting the 2 Audioengr critics are owners of PS Audio Direct Stream. Is it possible they're a LITTLE upset DS got CRUSHED!!!! in Mattnshilp's shootout? Did I say got CRUSHED!!! Is it a coincidence? LOL!
Erikminer, I have no problems with manufacturers defending themselves especially an ONE man operation. Any negative rumor can break their business so they have to explain their side of the story.
Ozzy, you mentioned Audio Advisor no longer want your business due to your 30 day trial program usage. Did you abused the system? You even joked about ... sounds like you're a customer from hell. BTW, did you requests a refund from Audioengr after the trial period?
Mattnshilp DS sonic description is consistent with many I've heard. I'm NOT surprise DS crashed after firmware updates since I have experience with PWDMKII/bridge. PS Audio give software a bad rep. |
Yes, I am a difficult customer. Customer service is extremely important to me. Items should work as advertised and Companies should back there products.
I applaud Matt for doing this comparison and I have no doubt that with his system he is giving an honest evaluation in sound quality.
I will bow out of this thread, for I agree that it is about the Dacs Matt is reviewing and I am sorry if I got it off course. |
Joecasey.. I didn't read it like the DS was crushed I read it that Matt liked the ODSE better.. I wish he'd spent a bit more time listening to it, and spent some time reloading the firmware or getting help to resolve the firmware issue but honestly his thoughts on the DS's sound quality don't really matter to me, what matters to me is how the DS sounds in my system. Also I spent way way less $$ for my DS then he's spending for his ODSE.. so I'm good with my decision..
Additionally I found the DS is quite sensitive to power cables and interconnects.. So if he'd chosen to I suspect he could have gotten it to perform at another level, also consider that the ODSE has a built in off ramp thingy that if added to any of the other Dac's might have swayed him in another direction. But in the end it's his ears and his choice, I've just enjoyed his journey..
As for PSA firmware issues no question the Bridge is flawed but so are lots of other software driven products.. I had a bridge for a while and also gave up on it (planning on an Aurulic Aries soon) so I'm not a PSA fanboy by any stretch.
And I thought all along that Ozzy's beef with Nugent should have been private.. But if you are a manufacturer who uses a public forum for among other things promoting ones products ( frequently) then one needs to be prepared to take some flack from time to time. To Empirical's credit there doesn't seem to be too many folks that are un-happy, so he/they must for the most part be doing the right thing by their customers.. |
And like Ozzy I'll also bow out now.. Matt I've enjoyed your writing and hard work, enjoy your ODSE, it's a really nice piece..Time now to figure out how to get your rooms acoustics improved :-) |
yes they do belong elsewhere, however you can't have it both ways. It's a forum on the internet and folks will post their feelings on things. If folks buy based on what they read.....sorry, that's just MY pet peeve I guess. I didn't love reading the debate either, but why can someone get hammered for posting what he did and then someone else can bash PS Audio by saying they got bashed, when in fact, that's not at all what Matt posted. They are all trying to make an honest living. Matt and others need to be free to post their thoughts, good or bad. Dealers who chose, should be able to defend themselves if they feel they want to, but on this thread or not, it's going to be out in the public and we should make our decisions based on what is best for us.
This thread has been and is awesome. I'm not playing in this league, but I've gotten to hear a few of these DAC;s in my travels. I've heard many others in these price ranges also. They all seem to have plusses and minus's to my ear. They all seem very system dependent. As much as any other product. One thing that has been brought up by all is a basic cable. Question for said designers, why don't you just get the best cable for your product and ship with it? I know a few speaker manufacturers who use a specific companies cable internally or in their crossovers (external). For a power cord, I would think that you could just build that into it. One reason I love Ayre products is that they build some sort of circuit to clean the AC. I have heard a few of their components with various cords and they just dont' make a huge difference to me nor have they to the people I've listened with.
Does the power cord make a big difference with the DAC's you like Matt or was it just the PS fans who said theirs needs a better power cord? Thanks. |
One thing that has been brought up by all is a basic cable. Question for said designers, why don't you just get the best cable for your product and ship with it? What's best? What's best for some but not others. Same reason why MOST companies don't use rare NOS tube for stock. They know end users will roll what's BEST to their ears. |
I cannot speak for other DACs, but due to extensive use of Hynes regulator technology, I found that putting an expensive power cord on the Overdrive SE only helped a tiny bit. I still use one, just because I have it. I really don't believe its necessary though.
Maybe Matt tried more than one cable on it?
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
I intentionally ran every DAC with the same everything to keep all variables out of the equation except the DAC itself. Same rack, same power cables, same interconnects, same ancillary equipment, same ears, same obsessive compulsive mentality. I listed all the equipment at the very start of the thread. All top tier cables, rack, accessories, etc.
I used my Shunyata ZiTron Alpha Digital power cable. I found that anything I put Shunyata ZiTron PC's on sounds its best. I believe it is because what Shunyata does better then most is filter out noise caused by and affected by other equipment in my system. My power from the wall is very clean and very consistent. I live in a pretty suburban/rural area with few on my grid.
Obviously there will be those that feel a piece I tried is better suited to another PC or interconnects; and it very well may be. But I tried to use the best, most musical and resolving cables and accessories I could afford to get the very best from my gear and my shoutout. The power cord and interconnects (added up) connected to the DS cost about 1/2 to 2/3 of the DAC itself. I do not feel I gave any of the equipment an unfair advantage or disadvantage with the cables or accessories I used. I also don't think I would have gotten dramatically different results with other cables or power cords; sorry. |
Sorry for the persistent double posts.
I admit that if I had the time, money and even more patience and persistence then I already gave this, then I should have spent time with each individual unit fine tuning, tweaking, tube and cable rolling, accessory rotating and generally squeezing the absolute best I can out of each. I know that many reviewers will do that with a review.
I don't have a closet full of power cords of different manufacturers, a big cardboard box filled with tubes, a drawer filled with isolation footers/dampers, or the patience to go through them and get that last little bit of performance. At least, not in the brief time it takes to evaluate a piece of gear.
And more importantly, I wasn't just reviewing one unit. I was "reviewing" 4 (5 if you include my original Perfect Wave 2).
To those who asked, Alex IS providing me with the cables (PC, USB) that he believes make his DSD-S DAC sound the best; I think that's fantastic. I will compare his to mine, just because I'm curious. I will report is all.
And if John lends me a particular PC, interconnect or tube because he believes it will improve the performance of the Romulus then I will happily use them (and compare them to my cables as well). |
Steve and Matt, thanks for the answers. That's what I thought. I feel that if a designer is designing cost no object products that they should put the best on or into them, however in cases like tubes or cords, maybe they should do what Steve just did and say in my system and to me, I used XYZ cord and only heard a small difference. You can try it, but if you use what I ship it with, then you will get well over 99% of what it's capable of. I get it that folks have to tinker, but I know a lot of guys who own very very high end systems, because they know how much they love music AND they know there are great stores out there to help them. They are not audiophiles and have no desire to roll tubes or play with cables or cords. I just bought a whole new system at Audio Connections. Johns on here and Matt goes there on occasion. I ended up going with him because I just wanted a system that sounded right together. He knew the cords, cables and limits of my speakers and we went from there.
The biggest take away from what I just posted is that in this thread so many of the posts are about changing what Matt is doing to 'get the most' out of something. What is the most? It's what Matt deems it to be since it's his deal. He has laid down the parameters and they seem fair considering what this is. You can chose to agree or disagree with his ear, however I find it interesting that folks keep telling him that he didn't use a product properly etc.... I know it never stops and I understand your posts and all, but at some point in time there comes a moment that you have to say I'll make my decisions based on what's sold and what I have. This thread says a lot more than just what high end DAC Matt likes. Some of you play in this league. Most of us on here probably don't. I personally would love to have any of the DAC's he's trying out. IF I were to spend that type of coin on any of these, I can promise you that I'd audition them all in my rig, like Matt is doing in his. I really hope that what he posts doesn't hurt any of the manufacturers as you are all small. There are no larger high end manufacturers anymore. You all need the business and I hope you all get it. EVen if I didn't like your products (I'm sure I'd love them), I'd still want you to be successful so the competition is still out there to keep this hobby/business strong. Thanks again to all of you and Steve, thanks for answering your questions. I know it won't happen, but it would be neat to see you use your expertise and make a more affordable DAC (I know the higher end the better the sales right now). Hope I haven't hijacked. |
I actually have a more affordable DAC in my plans, that supports DSD (and native) for the masses that must have this. Its probably a year off. Too many other things on my plate right now.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Thank you Steve. It's always good to hear when a designer puts out a great performing product at a lower cost. For your products, did you ever try using linear power supplies from such companies as Lambda or HP and were they ugh more affective than the wal wart supplies? Was there something lacking that motivated you to design your own external PS as an option? |
I have never bought anything from Steve, but I have spoken with him on several occasions and he is nothing but professional and generous with his time. There are a fair amount of dysfunctional audio companies out there, and his is not one of them...
On another note, I have had several people go back to CDPs from computer audio claiming improved SQ. I wonder what the Esoteric plastic spinner would be like into the Aeris versus your Mini? |
Hi Agear, good question... But I suspect that various Esoteric transports might yield different results into a given DAC... E.g. X-01, X-03, K-01, K-03, P-02, P-01 Grandioso have different transport subassemblies, different electronics, and different mechanical packages.
G. |
Guido, it was more of a generic question regarding CD transport versus computer |
Jafox - literally every linear supply on the market as well as many SMPS are just too slow reacting to be interesting for digital. The regulators just dont compare to the Hynes technology. Most aupplies dont have very good input noise rejection either. Another area where Hynes tech shines.
The supply upgrades for my Off-Ramp and Synchro-Mesh are Hynes tech linears also.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Thank you Steve for the details. I have read about Hynes PS's for things like Mac Mini's. With an OffRamp 5 and a Mac Mini, maybe Hynes could make a custom PS to drive both. I will enquire with Hynes on this. |
I actually have a more affordable DAC in my plans, that supports DSD (and native) for the masses that must have this. Its probably a year off. Too many other things on my plate right now. Any plans in adding DSD to ODSE? |
JFox,
Paul Hynes (very, very nice bloke) makes many custom LPSU with multiple rails. indeed, he does have order cancellations from time to time and offer such units for sale with immediate delivery. I just got my SR3 a few months back and have not listened to it yet.
That remainds me, I must give Paul a call to say hello and have a small chat. |
Thank you Wisnon. I sent an email to Paul. |
Agear, unfortunately generic questions do not often have attractive universal answers... The audio devil always lurks in the proverbial details.
Hence the endless variables... Which CDPs, which computers, which connections, which user preferences, etc...? G. |
Jafox - it is better to use two separate supplies, one for the Mini and one for the Of-Ramp. Its just like the analogy of stereo amp versus monoblocks or preamp and amp versus integrated. Separate power is ALWAYS better.
Besides, I have optimized the Hynes design for use with my Off-Ramp and Synchro-Mesh. Its a different supply.
The Mini supply I highly recommend from Hynesdesign.com.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
DSD cannot be added to the ODSE, but the new DAC will have it.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Thank you Steve. With limited remaining shelf space I was trying to reduce the number of more boxes and power cords. I will start with the Turbo 5 PS after I spend much time comparing the T5 with the wal wart vs. MacMini str8 into the Lampi B6 via USB. |
ODSE expected next week yay!
DSD-S also incoming. Looking forward to that.
Will keep you updated. |
Matt, was at Audio Connections yesterday and got to hear the Romulus with the Vandy 7's in the big room. HOLY CRAP. If any of these other DAC;s sound better, then any of them are keepers. I was blown away by how right the sound was and it was just with ripped CD's. I'm a vinyl guy right now and I could EASILY live/love the Romulus. I have heard a lot of expensive DACS and none have made me think 'why vinyl'. The Romulus is a full CD player and DAC, but man it just sounded right. Glad you are doing this shootout. |
I'm sure the 7's had nothing to do with it ;-) |
Been following your DAC adventure.
Thanks for posting your thoughts on the Great line up of DACs.
I am happy right now with mine, but have been thinking about getting into a Computer setup.
I like what Grannyring said about the OF-Ramp, might work well with my DAC.
I have been pondering this for a while, if I go for just redbook, the Art Legato is well thought of, but OF-Ramp does give me more options.
Thanks for the Great Thread Matt |
Matt, when you listened to the Romulas at audio-connections, what was your impressions? |
Great thread, thanks to Matt. I am also interested in Romulus signature and how does it stand against others.
The Aesthetix also saying that the volume control implementation in Romulus is on pair with top notch pre-amplifiers.
Did anybody had a chance to listen Romulus direct to amplifier? |
