'OK, let the criticism begin!!! lol....'
I muck around with, listen to, and have heard a lot of DAC's.
There is no right or wrong, simply what suits you and your system best.
My favourite DAC (at the moment - things change fast in the DAC area) is a hand build DAC called a Killer. But it is very musical and that is not everyone's preference - some are in my camp - others prefer say the extremely clear, clean, and pure Phasure which I find a bit bland.
A DAC that impressed me recently was the PS Audio - it blew my Chord out of the water - but it was a lot more expensive so that's not an earth shattering revelation - you would hope you get something for the extra dosh. It is going to be upgraded to the Direct Stream soon and we will be having a GTG to see how it fares against some of my other DAC's such as the Playback Designs and Killer.
Always a lot of fun.
Anyway by checking them out and posting about it you are doing the right thing. Keep up the good work.
Thanks
Bill |
Update on Aeris:
I just confirmed that the Aeris is essentially brand new. It has between 45 and 90 hours on it. Typically Rowland gear needs 500+ hours to really blossom. Crapburgers!!! I was really hoping it was burned in already.....
That will delay things significantly regarding my reviews.
The OverDrive SE will be burned in already when it arrives mid to late next week. So that will be the next up to compare with the Lampy. The DS will be arriving at the same time next week, but it needs at least a week on it before I can compare.
Any ideas on the easiest, uninterrupted source for USB music to burn in 2 DAC's simultaneously????
Ahhhhhhhh!!!!!!! |
Got a couple of extra laptops, or old desktops you can use ? |
Can I use an iPod somehow? |
Glory's L5, which he replaced with the Phasure? That was a Gen 3 L5 with Ming DSD, not the new Chipless DSD from Lukasz. Not even close to being equivalent to a Gen 4 L5 with Lukasz DSD.
Strange that HiFiAL says that the Meitner beat the Lampi DSD-Dac, when Bruce Brown said it beat his reference MPD5 (Playback Designs). I also concur after listing to both extensively.
Different stokes for different folks. Personal taste is what really matters. |
Hey Matt, how about one of those inexpensive USB hubs? |
Like this http://www.amazon.com/Sabrent-4-Port-Individual-Switches-HB-UMLS/dp/B00BWF5U0M/ref=sr_sp-atf_title_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1401507819&sr=8-1&keywords=USB+hub |
I don't think the computer can output 2 different USB audio devices at once.
No biggie, I'll figure something out.
I'll keep everyone updated as things cook and stew.
The OverDrive SE should be here mid to late next week, as well as the DS. |
Hi Matt, I'd suggest using the IsoTek burn-in CD. You can buy it and rip it to your Mac to use for faster break-in of any audio component in the chain. BTW, did you receive my PM? Best wishes, Alex Peychev APL Hi-Fi |
Getting the most from CDs & break-in
I'm very interested in the review of DACs with a focus on Redbook CD. To me, the performance is more important than the medium and for a variety of works, my favorites (classical, opera, jazz) are often recorded in the 1960's, 50's, or even 40's, so getting the most out of them is my top priority.
I'm using the PSA PWD-II and am curious about the DirectStream, as well as the other DACs, since posts frequently comment on how much more information the DS retrieves from CDs than the PWD.
One comment. The PSA DACs (I had the MK-I and upgraded to the MK-II) need a very long break-in time. When I got the PWD, I was ready to return it after too weeks (thin bass, hard treble). When I called my vendor, he asked me to give it a couple more weeks and that after the first two weeks, the sound is at its nadir. Shortly after that, the DAC steadily improved and ended up sounding great. I don't know about the DirectStream, but it may need similarly long break-in period.
Thanks much for the shoot-out, I'm looking forward to your impressions. |
This is not happening fast enough... |
Great thread so far and it is exciting to know there is more to come! Enjoy! |
Matt, I sure hope to read that the Aesthetix makes it to the party here, My interest is because I am considering getting A Romulas signature in the near future, Really, If you get an Aesthetix digital product in these comparisions, Make sure you get the signature model, from what I understand, this up-grade is substantial to the performance of the Aesthetix product line up, cheers. |
The Aeris will be done burning in on Tuesday 6/24. That'l put 600 hours on it, which apparently is what it needs to really shine.
Having owned (and still own - up for Sale) a Rowland Capri S2 preamp I can confirm that Rowland gear really takes a long time to reach full potential. Fortunately, Guido was kind enough to nicely burn in my Criterion before selling it to me.
I will post next when the OverDrive SE and DS arrive.
|
I am enjoying this thread and look forward to hearing about more comparisons leading up to your final DAC choice Matt.
I feel fortunate to have started with the Metrum Hex which, at about $3.5K fully loaded, I believe may represent a sweet spot between outclassed lower priced DACs and the higher priced state of the industry DACs being discussed in this thread. I did try the Lampi L4G4 with Duelunds but, in direct comparison, I liked the sound of the Hex better.
I will be interested in hearing about your Rowland vs. Overdrive comparison since my next DAC upgrade will likely be another solid state unit. I will also be interested in hearing whether you believe the Offramp improves the sound of the DACs in your shootout. |
Hi Matt, I'd suggest using the IsoTek burn-in CD. You can buy it and rip it to your Mac to use for faster break-in of any audio component in the chain. Best wishes, Alex Peychev APL Hi-Fi |
Mitch2, an acquaintance (who is in the "industry" and has had a ton of dacs through his system) recently acquired a $200 dac out of China called the WEILIANG DAC5 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/DAC-decoder-AK4399-WM8805-Coaxial-optical-input-Assembled-board-DAC9-by-weiliang-/1409397061030) and preferred it to the Metrum. I believe it uses an AKM chip.
Nothing sacred in digital! |
Hi Matt, it is likely that Rowland Aeris will continue to bloom until, or possibly through, the 800 hours mark.
With any component, Until a device is fully stabilized, there is the danger of mistaking temporary early artifacts as sonic signature.
G. |
What is it about the design or part selection of the Aeris that requires an enormous 800 hour burn in? Just curious,Seems a bit over the top.
Charles, |
I think if you listen to a component long enough like 800 hours you get use to the sound. Its not until another person hears the system and points out that the sound is thin or the bass is boomy or the midrange is dark. |
Lol. I don't even listen until it's ready. Especially a DAC.
DAC's on, getting source from computer on-line radio station, running into my powered on pre-amp, amps off.
That's why it helps to have people who know how long break in will be. I just let 'er run. And listen when she's done cooking.
You don't keep tasting your thanksgiving turkey before it's done cooking, do you? ;) |
Excellent question Charles. I freely admit of being pathologically picky when it comes to break-in process. I deem a device to be broken in only when I no longer perceive any further change in sound over the span of about one week of 24/7 operation, regardless of what the manufacturer has told me, or has published.
during the last 10 years or so, I have broken in a number of components, including 4 digital front end devices.. Esoteric X-01, GamuT CD3, Esoteric K-01, and recently Rowland Aeris DAC. Aeris is the very first front end that in my experience may have stabilized before crossing the 1000 hours mark.
Admittedly, Aeris does contain a lot of technology that is well known to take time to stabilize, like input transformer an 6-layer ceramic boards, yet break-in seems to have been a little faster than other front-end devices I have had in system. If you are interested, there are 27 mostly technical entries on Aeris hardware and firmware in the Rowland Knowledge base at:
http://jeffrowlandgroup.com/kb/categories.php?categoryid=205
Salluti, Guido |
Hi Matt,
I get your turkey analogy, but is it done baking in 8 hours or 8 days?
Guido, thanks for your reply. Good thread.
Charles, |
I have a friend who slow roasts a Briscuit over 36h. And he does taste it to adjust seasoning along the way. So that blows my culinary analogy.
Trust me. I hate the wait!!! Especially in this case.
Sorry guys. Patience, as they say, is a virtue.... |
Component "burn in" times are purely subjective. Having to wait 800 hours is absolutely ridiculous! 50 or 100 hours might easily be enough time for the component to perform mighty fine. Unless a component is severely flat or lacking extension at X hours, I highly doubt you are going to be able to quantify the exact differences 100 or 200 or whatever hours later based on memory.
There are far too many attributes in the listening room, temperature, humidity, time of day, listener's mood, electrical power voltage,, etc. that can easily result in perceived changes. We all have experienced a time or two where something just did not sound right and we return another day for the magic again to be there.
One way to actually document differences would be to use a "fully-burned in" component as a reference, and do a comparison day to day, documented/detailed. This would determine if the differences are now constant or whether the additional day of burn-in time of the component under evaluation is truly "changing" quantitatively/qualitatively relative to the differences documented the day before. After a few days of no documented differences, it's time to end the "burn-in" process. To expect additional time to result in a black sheep suddenly becoming a golden unicorn at burn-in between day 33 vs. day 34 (800 hours) is silly at best. This comparitive process is far more objective than relying on personal memory of exactly how a component sounded or changed the day or days before.
When I first powered on the L6, I was very concerned about weak bass. In an hour or so, the expected low-end presence was there. This is very typical of tube products. I always turn them on an hour or so before I even sit down for serious music listening. |
Jafox,
Yes, I don't own the Aeris DAC so have no first hand experience with its burn in process. Logically I really can't understand what on earth requires such excessive hours of use to reach its sonic peak. It would seem (I could just be wrong) 200 hours for synthetic material capacitors or large transformers should be sufficient. Guido documents 800 hours, he has one and I don't. From say 400 hours to 800 hours what is audibly changing? Why choose parts that demand extreme hours in order to finally sound good?
Charles, |
I have read where owners of Esoteric K-01 players have to do 300 to 400 hours of burn-in time for each setting, a total of over 1000 hours before the player is completly done, It is strange to me too, after reading that, my interest of Esoteric was gone, I do not care how good it sounds, to many others out there that would sound good enough that you will not have to go through that kind of hard ship for less hours of burn-in! |
Hi Charles and JaFox, my long break-in opinions are based on a break-in tracking spreadsheet correlated with a dated break-in log that I kept during listening sessions throughout the process... I largely applied the same test track that I tend to report on for published articles. As pointed out, memory of past events by itself is unreliable.
Between the 450 and 800 hours mark, the last remenents of treble peakiness and transient stresses in Aeris disappeared, while harmonic coherence, extension, imaging/staging, and overall musicality continue to grow.
G. |
Agear,
As a point of clarification, Al's experience was with a very early prototype of the DSD DAC. This was not supposed to be demoed by Al for anyone and I informed him this was NOT the commercial DAC or even as recent as the revision Bruce had heard, but it was all I had available.
I loaned Al my own personal Big 5 DSD for him to evaluate and show to his friends and fellow club members, but he never even took it out of the box in the weeks he held on to it.
I am actually a bit upset to see his posts... |
I'm sorry guys. I think I would be doing everyone (and myself) an injustice by rushing the reviews. I have spent a significant amount of both time and money to acquire these units. I want to do it right. I may not wait 800 hours Guido, but I think a good 3-4 weeks of constant zero's and one's is prudent to give each unit a fighting chance.
I may lose a few readers to the time delay, but those who want to know will follow along. I actually think we have developed a great group here. I, for one, am enjoying the ride. |
Update:
My DirectStream is delayed. They are waiting for displays. Sigh.
They are expecting it to ship NEXT Monday (6/9). Maybe this Friday.
I asked the representative if they would be willing to keep it there and burn it in for 2 weeks, 24/7 through the USB port. To my surprise, she said she would. Then I have 30 days from the time I get it (with 336 hours already on it).
So my new arrival date is around Mon to Wed (6/23-6/25). I will be able to give it a decent listen upon arrival though, which is nice.
I may even have her keep it 3 weeks, at which time my Aeris will also be done so I'll be able to directly compare them. |
OK Gary/Goper, lets get some things straight and clear the air.
1) YOU NEVER told me it was a very early prototype or that it was not supposed to be demoed by anyone and not a commercial DAC. I would have told you not to bother as I would have no clue what it would ultimately sound like.
I requested a DSD DAC that I could evaluate AND also have heard by fellow Club Members and at an up coming Club meeting. Weeks earlier when Luksz was at one of our meetings, from my invite, we discussed with him about coming back in January so we could dedicate a whole meeting to the Lampi.
The Lampi you sent me came much later then you had said I should expect it, I had to email you several times for updates. When it finally did arrive I started to have MAJOR health issues, which I have just started to finally get some relief from, I hope.
Because that DAC had NO volume control/preamp functions I informed you that I could not evaluate it in my system as I had no preamp. So I requested one with a preamp function.
2) That is also when I informed you that if you can get me a replacement ASAP it would be used at the upcoming Club Meeting that was about digital audio.
You were very gracious to offer your brand new DAC and had it sent to me. I also extended in invite to you to the Club meeting so you could be there to make sure all went well.
You also informed me that there may be an issue when first setting it up and to call your tech guy if needed.
Yes, I never took your DAC out of the box. I really felt uncomfortable using your personal DAC and since the host for the meeting had a preamp we could use the DSD DAC. So we did use the DSD only DAC at the meeting and it was liked by about half the club. Not a bad showing for a (unknown to be) early prototype DSD DAC.
Because I was getting sicker and I had no way of knowing when I would have a good day or bad it took me a a little longer then I would have liked to return it. But it was not long by any means. And I did mention to you that I was not feeling very well.
I even mentioned to you that what I heard with Lukasz was so great but that what I heard at the Club meeting was good but just did not sound the same as with Lukasz. I asked you could there be something wrong with the DAC.
Not once did you say that it was an early prototype, as that might have explained it in my mind.
As an example as how bad I have been the last several months, I have not made any of the two Clubs meetings I belong too for the last six months until two weeks ago. I have also been on a leave of absence from work as it is very difficult to leave the house on most days.
Gary, if you had a beef with me you have my email and cell. All you had to do is talk to me.
And what is so wrong in with my posts?? You NEVER stipulated that I could NOT post my impressions or my fellow Club Members.
Is it that you want NO BAD/MEDIOCRE/WHATEVER impressions of the Lampi?!
Lets get something straight for not just you but for everyone.
I CALL THEM AS I SEE THEM. I HAVE NO ALLEGIANCE OR AFFILIATION TO ANYONE. IF AND WHEN I DO I WILL DISCLOSE IT.
BUT I DO RESPECT WHEN SOMEONE REQUESTS NONDISCLOSURE.
When finale thought. If I some how misunderstood you Gary I whole heartedly apologize.
Alright, one more finale thought. I still hope to hear a PCM/DSD Lampizator DAC with preamp function (not a top of the line one)in a worthwhile system. I epect to over the next few weeks/months, health willing. I would love to confirm the great sound I heard that day that Lukasz played his DSD only DAC at the end of our Club Meeting last fall.
|
Matt, sorry to have to use your thread to respond. |
Winson, I have an update on the Meitner vs Phasure.
"Strange that HiFiAL says that the Meitner beat the Lampi DSD-Dac, when Bruce Brown said it beat his reference MPD5 (Playback Designs). I also concur after listing to both extensively"
Since my post about the above months ago I have found out why the Meitner did so poorly vs the Phasure. I also have had a chance to hear them both vs each other in two different systems, but one being the original system I first heard them in.
I will post my update in a few days |
Hi Al,
I’m a laid back guy and enjoyed meeting you at Deepaks. I don’t want to get into an argument and appreciate what you tried to do for us. I know you had mentioned a stomach bug at the time, but wasn’t aware it was serious... I sincerely hope you are feeling better.
I’m not upset about how the meet went down or what happened in the past... Life happens! I also do welcome feedback and discussion good and bad. It’s a subjective hobby and we cannot win them all, but I felt some critical information was omitted.
1. You heard a prototype of the DAC and you absolutely loved it:
“After several hours of listening to the system including DSD from SACD through the EMM LABS Father Richards was gracious enough in letting Lukasz put in his DSD DAC. I brought some DSD files that Lukasz could add to what he planed on playing.
But before I describe what happens next let me tell you that Lukasz gave us a brief description of his work on DSD and thoughts on Audio. He also spent time in awe while listening to music through the system before we inserted his DSD DAC.
It only took a few bars of music for EVERYONE in the room to be able to hear what Lukasz's DSD DAC could do for the playback of music. You could hear people all over the room surprised at how well both Lukasz's DSD DAC and DSD done right could sound. AWE STRUCK is not significant enough to describe it.
Even Lukasz said he did not know it could sound that great.
ALL felt it OUTCLASSED the EMM LABS.”
2. After getting a dac to you we discussed it on the telephone and you informed me something was wrong and it wasn’t as clean as what you heard previously which led me to the immediate realization you had gotten the wrong unit (an experiment with very poor sounding Chinese polyp capacitors) with from our tech.
I admittedly did not ask you to remain silent with respect to what you or others heard, but I did explain there was a mixup and that was NOT what we wanted anyone evaluating. You understood fully and wanted to schedule another time to hear the Lampi in proper form (which I did and do appreciate!).
3. My Big 5 DSD was a finished product and what I wanted to be heard at the meet. There wasn’t anything funky about the DAC’s setup, but I was going to be unavailable by phone at the time of the meet, so I wanted to make sure you had our tech’s number in case you had any issues at all. I understand with your illness you didn’t get to it. I know your intentions were good and appreciate you trying.
Having said all that, my issue is that despite the above you chose to write about the prototype we never meant to be evaluated as if it were a finished product and rank it below Meitner and Phasure on a public forum. |
|
Gopher and HiFial -
I think I speak for everyone here when I ask that you take this outside please.
I have noting to add until my DAC's arrive, so I welcome anyone elses input on anyting dac related that add's to this threads topic. But I don't think we all want to get in the middle of what you guys are doing...
Thanks. |
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05-28-14: Audioengr
Shaw - I have not heard the new Directstream, but I have heard the Vivaldi in two different rooms at RMAF. The Overdrive beats it IMO. The Analog DAC was compared in the latest Overdrive review. The Overdrive beat it according to the reviewer. I have heard the Wavelength, Berkeley, Ayre, Chord Qute, and Bryston. Overdrive beats all of these. My roommate used the Lampi7 in his room in Chicago Axpona. He says the Overdrive beats it too. I have not heard the top of line Resonessence or the Bricasti yet. Audioengr, Bravo! |
Gary, thanks for your reply and understanding. But again prior to my postings I was never informed that the DSD DAC I had was a prototype. If I had been informed of that I would have not even bothered to try it, either at the Club meeting or anywhere else. What would be the point. And I sure as hell would have mentioned it on my postings if I had known it was a prototype.
Yes, you did mention that it had base caps and that the better caps would sound better but this was after the meeting not before. There was no mention that it was a prototype and we discussed that maybe it had an issue and you would check on it. I even dropped it off at your repair center for you. I said I would still like an opportunity if you could find one with what I needed for my system (PCM/DSD/preamp/Balanced). I never heard back from you. THIS is the FIRST time I am hearing all this. And it EXPLAINS a lot, possible, I hope. I would have NEVER wrote about what I had heard if I was TOLD it was a PROTOTYPE. What would be the point. The reason for you sending your DAC was the issue about the lack of a preamp section. That was the mix up.
Maybe you thought you mentioned it, but no you did not. Remember you were very busy because of CES so you might have planed to mention it but never got to me about it.
Lets just agree that there was miscommunication and leave it like that.
But I must add to that the EMM LABS was an older model I have since been informed.
I will have an opportunity to hear a Lampi against a current Meitner sometime soon. So the Lampi will have a chance to redeem its self in my ears. And I have high hopes for it seeing NOW I know the other one was a prototype.
|
Sorry Matt. I just saw your request. DONE. |
Al,
No hard feelings, man. Clearly a two-way misunderstanding. Yes, both the first DAC you enjoyed at Father Richard's home AND the one you borrowed were prototypes (and the one Bruce Brown evaluated for that matter).
Things have only gotten better since :) As for the caps they weren't ever stock but a failed experiment for technical rather than sonic testing.
Matt,
No problem, man. I just wanted to clear that up. Keep on rocking with your Big 6, its a fantastic DAC.
Peace to all,
Fred |
I just got tracking #'s and confirmation from Steve at Empirical Audio that my OverDrive SE and other goodies are in route via 2-day air!
Yay!!!! |
Actually I was able to save you some money and do 3-day. I thought I had missed the UPS driver, but he appeared really late. It should be there on Friday.
Steve N. |
Al
I'm in middle America with big5 remote preamp, you would be welcome to listen
It sounds great...I assume your are est |
Can't wait. Looking forward to trying out the other gear as well. Thanks!
As much as I love my preamp, I'd love to go DAC direct to amps. But my preamp gives me magic I have yet to beat with a direct run. |
The best DAC? Always the next one. |
Shawbrows3: yes, "trash" is very harsh. And that's how it was in my system relative to the NU's. I have started with components full of stock tubes and the designer is clearly proud of the sound in stock form. But experience already told me about the benefits of replacing certain tube types and brands. And with some effort to try a handful of tubes, the component can take on a level of performance that likely the designer never experienced.
A past L6 owner told me to listen to both of these VT-99 tube sets. He was very nice to send me the NU pair to do a compare. He said one was the Lampi tube and he said the other was the one he liked. After I listened to both, I sent him my report and he replied that his experiences matched with mine. But I don't know of the degree of the differences for me vs. him.
The focus of my system has always been to achieve decays and harmonic structures. Sacrificing things like the ultimate in resolution and bass extension were done to get the 3D magic. Bringing on the Aria preamp, Jade Ref cables and now the Lampi took the 3D to a new level and brought on many refinements previously needing much attention. And lots of effort of tube rolling throughout majorly brought on accumulative benefits. I still feel there is clarity and resolution to achieve by replacing the Sound Lab speakers' backplate components with all the latest changes. This could Be huge. And would probably show even greater tube differences.
So I'm not sure what it is about my system that makes the NU significantly outperform the Sylvania. But in my system, relative to the NU, the Sylvania is horribly flat and way too distant. Had I only had the Sylvania and this was used in a multi-DAC shoot out, I doubt I would end up picking the L6 as a top-performer relative to it's competition. |
The focus of my system has always been to achieve decays and harmonic structures. Sacrificing things like the ultimate in resolution and bass extension were done to get the 3D magic. That's the shizzle and what's missing from most digital... So I'm not sure what it is about my system that makes the NU significantly outperform the Sylvania. But in my system, relative to the NU, the Sylvania is horribly flat and way too distant. Had I only had the Sylvania and this was used in a multi-DAC shoot out, I doubt I would end up picking the L6 as a top-performer relative to it's competition. Very good point. I am certain Lampi's get dumped by folks who do not do their due diligence. A common theme in audio....:/ |
I got your drift Jafox. Congrats on finding the tube that brings the best out of the Big Six in your system! If the National Unions can improve Matt's system like it did yours, then those other DACs have an uphill battle ahead of them.
Matt - if one of the other DACs rises above the Lamp, let me know and I will send you the NU's to try out. Jafox might be on to something here...
I do agree that the Lamp DACs aren't quite as extended and bass strong as some SS DACs, for me it's all about getting connected to the music emotionally and the Lamp DACs so that with aplomb... |
