Matt very cool. Can't wait to hear what you come up with.
Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD
Hi All.
Putting together a reference level system.
My Source is predominantly standard 16/44 played from a MacMini using iTunes and Amarra. Some of my music is purchased from iTunes and the rest is ripped from standard CD's.
For my tastes in music, my high def catalogues are still limited; so Redbook 16/44 will be my primary source for quite some time.
I'm not spending DCS or MSB money. But $15-20k retail is not out of the question.
Upsampling vs non-upsampling?
USB input vs SPDIF?
All opinions welcome.
And I know I need to hear them, but getting these ultra $$$ DAC's into your house for an audition ain't easy.
Looking for musical, emotional, engaging, accurate , with great dimension. Not looking for analytical and sterile.
Putting together a reference level system.
My Source is predominantly standard 16/44 played from a MacMini using iTunes and Amarra. Some of my music is purchased from iTunes and the rest is ripped from standard CD's.
For my tastes in music, my high def catalogues are still limited; so Redbook 16/44 will be my primary source for quite some time.
I'm not spending DCS or MSB money. But $15-20k retail is not out of the question.
Upsampling vs non-upsampling?
USB input vs SPDIF?
All opinions welcome.
And I know I need to hear them, but getting these ultra $$$ DAC's into your house for an audition ain't easy.
Looking for musical, emotional, engaging, accurate , with great dimension. Not looking for analytical and sterile.
4,489 responses Add your response
I just spoke with the guys at Symposium after reporting to them my findings. He said he was not surprised. He designed his equipment to be ultimately neutral top to bottom, and I can absolutely attest to this. It is REALLY good stuff!!! I’m going to listen again Wednesday. I need another session to confirm and reinforce my findings. Then I need to decide which one gets me more lost in the music and gets my toes tapping. Hey I may have arranged for the top level Tidal DAC to grace my room. That should be fun!!! |
Matt, thanks for doing this. I have heard the HRS systems in so many places and they are amazing. I don't think it would be MORE of everything or overkill staying within the system. If it was, then that would lose the point of what their engineers are trying to achieve. Same with Symposium. If it was all of their gear, then would there be TOO much detail etc....? No, I doubt that would be teh case. I think there becomes the point of diminishing returns, just like everything else. What I'd LOVE to see happen next (and I forgot to text you this), if for you to get Sam to bring two of his active isolation platforms his imports from Germany I believe, that are used for special microscopes. As you know they are out of this world expensive, but I don't think you need a special rack for them. To me, that is the next logical step in your journey to isolation 101. |
@mattnshilp, Interesting review,thanks. I came across this brand on WBF where it has good user reviews: http://stacore.pl/en/ I’m not a dealer for Stacore or have anything to do with Stacore. Anyhow it seems that they only sell direct. They work on a damped pneumatic basis. For our studio I have been experimenting with silk thread isolation furniture of our own design, which has turned out to be extremely effective. Some customers have said they want one, so I’m going to make on a custom bespoke basis. I can send you a photo by PM if you like? I haven’t yet tried any footers under yet to see if it further improves isolation, so your review was timely. |
Wow. What a day! Here’s the list of things I compared (thanks for your help Larry!!!): IsoAcoustics Bordeaux IsoAcoustics Gaia 3 StillPoints Ultra5 Ansuz Darkz ceramic HRS Nimbus HRS Vortex HRS M3 Symposium RollerBlocks double stack Symposium Ultra Shelf Compared under my DAC and music server. Footers under my amp were Gaia2’s (screwed in). I had tried multiple footers under my Preamp and found it to be practically immune to changes in footers when placed under the massive steel sub plinth the pre-amp sits on. Rack is my Adona rack and shelves. Brief summary. Under the Memory Player Server the HRS Nimbus (which is correctly matched to the sheet metal case) did a better job of extracting details and harmonic layering then the Gaia3. But the Gaia3 are crazy good for the money! The Nimbus are more expensive but justify their price. The bass was slightly deeper and more taught and trailing edge was subtly better defined. I didn’t, but I will, compare the Nimbus to the Bordeaux; just because that needs to be done. Under the DAC I compared (again) the StillPoints Ultra5’s to the Bordeaux and both my friend who joined me and I preferred the more top to bottom coherence of the Bordeaux over the analytical leaning Stillpoint Ultra5’s. Both are easy to live with, but the Bordeaux, at a fraction of the cost, bested the mighty Ultra5’s in creating a more natural, even, musical environment, that was more believable. Also tried the Darkz. Very good although similar in overall result as the Ultra5’s. I liked the Ultra5’s more. If I didn’t have the Ultra5’s i would consider them. You get more for your money with the mass of the Ultra5 considering they are similarly priced. But the IsoAcoustics make you wonder if it’s worth buying any of them. Now it got interesting. Time to bring out the “systems”. The Symposium Ultra shelf with the RollerBlock double stacks and The HRS M3 shelf with the Vortex footers. This was to see what something closer to the full HRS and Symposium rack would attain. What resulted was an obvious improvement that shows that the more you do to isolate the better the result. The HRS and Symposium shelf/footer combos bested anything else I tried previously and with a large margin. Just better in every way. But which one was better then the other??? Much harder to say. The Symposium system improved clarity, resolution, provided layering that I had not heard before, and deepened the soundstage a touch. The trailing edge became extended and very well defined. Very very nice. The HRS system gave MORE. More dynamics, more bass, more extension, more wow, more sizzle, more live. Both are awesome and both provide dramatic improvements in system performance overall. But which one do I want?!? Oh man that’s a hard question!!! Can I get the best of both worlds? Maybe by using one rack and the other footers.... My friend was concerned that a whole rack of HRS “MORE” might be too much MORE. And an HRS rack would literally be twice as expensive as the Symposium rack. So there you have it. I can’t go wrong with either but they DO have different voicing. Clearly a full shelf/footer or rack/shelf/footer system surpasses what footers alone can do. I shall perseverate and let you all know my decisions. |
mattnshilp OP825 posts03-10-2018 5:43pmHey guys. Let’s keep it on track and respectful. Thanks. Been distracted by the storms and not having power for a week. Stop with the excuses Matt!!! ;). HA... I must have missed something. If I am the offender, I'm sorry. As for Steve's DAC's I only owned the ODSE tricked out and it was CRAZY good. Wasn't embarrassed in any system regardless of price. Yes, that good. |
Hey guys. Let’s keep it on track and respectful. Thanks. Been distracted by the storms and not having power for a week. Steves DAC is a serious contender and has always been. I still have mine and it makes serious music! It also beat everything that came it’s way until the Davinci 2. it is a force to be reckoned with. I will be comparing footers and shelves to tomorrow morning. Stay tuned. |
That is the rub. It’s UPnP, not Roon. There are reasons why I don’t do Roon. Email me. If you must have Roon,here are some options: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=153889.0 If you must go Ethernet to USB, then see the Sonore solutions. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
Hello Steve, Where can I learn more about your Interchange Ethernet renderer you keep mentioning here? After they finish the Gen3 upgrade to my Antipodes DX I plan to try using it as a server on my network with Roon. I will need a renderer to accept the Ethernet signal from my network (or directly from the DX which has two Ethernet connections) and then feed USB to my Pavane Level 3 DAC. It will need to work with Roon. I am looking at options but while some of the top offerings from SOtM and Sonore have their fans, nothing seems to jump out in the current reviews as a clear winner, based on musicality and overall performance. Of course, one option will be Antipodes' own EX (once it is released) but I know your stuff is very well-regarded and so I would like to learn more about your Interchange. I tried your website but the Interchange is not shown. BTW congrats on the excellent review Plaskin just gave your new SX. |
Crikey, In the small time I have been on this forum, each thread seems to degenerate into mine is bigger than yours arguments. I thought this was a means to exchange ideas and to help fellow audio lovers. I appreciate that there are contributors with real expertise out there, but lets not allow egos to degenerate friendly and spirited help and ideas. I have contributed to about 3 threads in well meaning contributions and each have been shot down, in my opinion, rather rudely. May be that's the US way, but we don't do that in Australia. Please lets be civil and well meaning in our conduct, or I'm out of here. |
I didn’t bother with that in this case. I am a trained listener and do this every single day, listening for changes, problems, nuances. Been doing that for 42 years. I don’t doubt my conclusions. I made business decisions based on them. Hi Steve. I’m not doubting you at all. As I stated, I was just curious if you could blind test. I'll take your response as a "no". Given everything I’ve read from you over the years on the forum, invariably you have all the answers and the "best-of-the-best" gear and technology at play. Happy listening. |
I’m curious if you are able to listen via "blind testing" and conclude the same results as your measurement data? I didn’t bother with that in this case. I am a trained listener and do this every single day, listening for changes, problems, nuances. Been doing that for 42 years. I don’t doubt my conclusions. I made business decisions based on them. You are welcome to doubt them if you want. It’s still a free country, at least last time I checked CNN. Steve N Empirical Audio |
My DAC (Yggdrasil) does not support Ethernet in, and I’m in no hurry to get another one.you don’t have to get another one. An external renderer like the Interchange goes Ethernet to S/PDIF, AES/UBU, SE I2S and HDMI I2S. But would I be correct in saying that your wav files that are from CD rips and downloads from HDTracks, that you are storing on Raid1 still has a cost of the storage device itself? Sure. I have a Terabyte and it’s enough for me. The RAID insures that I will never lose any music. It delivers low-latency because it's attached. And, is the cost of the storage more or less than $200 for 8 (eight) TB (terabytes), which is my cost for a western digital drive. Yes, but RAID has 3 drives, so you have 3 copies at all times. And, aren’t you using at least twice the storage space you would otherwise use if you stored as flac? Yes. Not a problem for me. It’s worth it for the sound quality. That is what I sell, that is what I want for myself. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
Why do you believe that Ethernet renderers = streaming?Hi Steve. If I'm mistaken here (and you're saying that I am) then I appreciate your pointing it out. My DAC (Yggdrasil) does not support Ethernet in, and I'm in no hurry to get another one. But would I be correct in saying that your wav files that are from CD rips and downloads from HDTracks, that you are storing on Raid1 still has a cost of the storage device itself? And, is the cost of the storage more or less than $200 for 8 (eight) TB (terabytes), which is my cost for a western digital drive. And, aren't you using at least twice the storage space you would otherwise use if you stored as flac? Perhaps your configuration is capable of the best quality, and it that case I'll have to be content with less than best. That said, I'm curious if you are able to listen via "blind testing" and conclude the same results as your measurement data? |
Streaming might be viable if I were just casually listening and not collecting on top of it. Additionally, not all types of music - especially live recordings - are available to stream. Why do you believe that Ethernet renderers = streaming? I don't do any streaming at all and I use an Ethernet renderer: my Ethernet DAC the ODSX or my Interchange Ethernet renderer. I play only my .wav files that are from CD rips and downloads from HDTracks. Everything is stored on a Raid1 and played from there. I can use Jriver, Twonky or Linn Kinsky for playback. It's the best sound quality I have ever had, and I've designed 6 generations of USB interfaces as well, Off-Ramp -> Off-Ramp 6. Here is an apples to apples comparison, measurements and listening tests: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=155232.0 Steve N. Empirical Audio |
How do you get time to listen to it all? I listen at a rate of 12 hours of live concert recordings weekly, for many years now. Each day I listen to a completely different show. In my case, I primarily, but not exclusively, listen to Grateful Dead. To date, I’ve listened to 4772 *unique* show hours and 2026 *unique* dates . My 20 terabytes is not all unique shows. Much of the material is the same show, but a different source. For instance, a show can be a soundboard, audience or matrix. I have about 1 year of music in queue. This is music I’ve already obtained but haven’t listened to it yet. I also have videos of many shows. Videos are typically 12Gb whereas a show in 24bit is 3.5Gb. Details are on my website http://halr.x10.mx/shows.html Ethernet renderers, as audioengr refers to, are the way to go. This isn’t practical in my case because I obtain and trade via client peer-to-peer bit torrent. I "collect" the music so as to retain in my personal possession. Grateful Dead can be streamed via ethernet rendering from archive.org, but my collection far surpasses what’s available on the site and is usually better quality sources. Note that at one time archive.org permitted downloading the files and not simply streaming as they do now. Moreover, IMO streaming is not as good as having the source files and playing locally. Streaming invariably involves occasional drop outs, especially if wireless is involved. My opinion on streaming music is that quality suffers in comparison to having the same music available locally. Streaming might be viable if I were just casually listening and not collecting on top of it. Additionally, not all types of music - especially live recordings - are available to stream. |
@gdhal
Ethernet renderers, as audioengr refers to, are the way to go. |
@gdhal if I had the huge library of music that you have I would certainly look to FLAC for storage. I am pushing 5 Tb in WAV my NAS library is manageable at the moment. The audio quality between the 2 is really dependant an the system you are playing it on. Mine sounds better with WAV but its not an expensive system either. 20Tb of FLAC music! How do you get time to listen to it all? |
I have upgraded my Mini with El Capitan and I'm using it with Linn Kinsky to drive network audio now. Superb SQ, best I ever had. Not sure if it supports Tidal or not. I will give Tidal a try soon. Once you upgrade the OS, the OR5 will not work anymore with the Mac. Other customers are starting to move from USB to Ethernet. My Interchange Ethernet renderer is killer good with any DAC. Look for customer feedbacks on my forum. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
I wanted to convert these to the same bit depth and sample rate and in .wav format (storage is so cheap now). While I certainly do agree that "cheap" or "expensive" is subjective, I humbly submit you are probably making a mistake to store as wav (instead of a lossless compressed alternative). Assuming your collection grows, at some point you will be compelled to rethink storing files in wav format. In my particular case, I have 20+ terabytes of music stored as flac. If I stored in wav, I suppose I could say I have 40 terabytes. Besides the fact the cost of three additional western digital drives would be $600, I’d also need another cubic feet or more of physical space. Not clear to me where the benefit lies. |
I had a dilemma with playing iTunes or JRiver, rips and other music files downloads with an equality of sound on my Antelope Zodiac Platinum Dac. The timing crystal is completely environmentally isolated so the timing is stable all the time (I leave mine on all the time). I wanted to convert these to the same bit depth and sample rate and in .wav format (storage is so cheap now). I use Aul ConvertR 48x44 PROduce-RD software to do all my conversions to my NAS which is my ROON server. I can play from NAS, stream from Node or Naim, play via Ethernet (for reliability) and Airplay through my Yamaha amp, (soon to by upgraded bigtime). I can listen to internet radio (preselected or me typing my favourite radio's ulr). My sound is uniform, until I play MQA and then the clarity is much improved. The thing is uniformity. You cant get a 16/44 CD quality file to be HD. What the Aul ConvertR software does is give you a means to input any format to (any) format you choose and change the bit depth and sample rate along the wany. It makes a big difference. The developer has also worked with JCat audio components for PCs. I used their gear to output quality sound via usb to the DAC and out via HD800 h/phones. I now convert all files from PC to NAS and play via Roon. Best sound ever, even if my system is not worth $10k all up. (This will all change when my new house, with a dedicated media room is built. I have project system worth well over $100k going in and the sound will be sublime... sorry for long blog, but its a big subject. Adrian |
Steve, what do you now recommend I do with my Mac mini server that you sold me? I still have the old Amarra etc... Should I keep it off the internet totally? I've been using the USB port that you marked as best SQ. As you know, I'm not technically great. Tidal is currently streamed in the Ayre QX5 and not the Mac mini. Thanks. I can call you if needed to get your answer or be talked through set up, lol.... |
I find Roon very enjoyable and use the DSP feature to good effect with no noticeable degradation in sound quality that I could detect. I use the EQ tool as well as volume leveling and up sampling at times. Wonderful! I did not like engaging the headroom feature that some reviewers seem to love. Just robbed the music of a little life IMHO. |
Matt - I found another good playback software, Twonky. Initially it did not work with my Ethernet renderer, but they issued a new beta version that does work for me. SQ as good as Kinsky, but I think it is a bit more stable and maybe user friendly. It is not released yet, so I’m using the beta version. I don’t know if Steve is aware but the SRC converters in Apple core audio are terrible - it is very important to make sure no conversion takes place in core audio I know this. I avoid iTunes like the plague. I have used it in the past with Amarra as a playlist navigator. I don’t do any SRC anymore. I used Wave Editor in the past because it was the best, but I don’t find the need anymore. 16/44.1 sounds fantastic on the ODSX. BTW, today I plan to compare on the same hardware Roon versus DLNA using either Twonky or Kinsky. The only difference will be software. I want to determine how good Roon software is. If I’m going to design a Roon interface, it had better be as good as my DLNA. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
So far I have not found any sound quality problems with Roon - you may want to try it. I have known for a long time that most softwares (especially Amara Jriver and others) tend to colour the sound. I don’t know if Steve is aware but the SRC converters in Apple core audio are terrible - it is very important to make sure no conversion takes place in core audio (iTunes has its own much better SRC converter built in to the software). I used a software called Bitperfect to ensure Core Audio automatically matched the file sample rate back when I used iTunes. Even Tidal has implemented the ability to control Apple core audio to ensure good sound quality. My overall approach is to totally avoid all SRC in software and to disable all software processing (even volume control) and filtering - perhaps that is why I don’t have all the typical problems everyone reports. Software engineers or programmers are like DAC designers - most haven’t a clue when it comes to digital signal time series processing (these are full semester courses in 3rd or 4th year engineering). Software can work one day and then an update comes along and trouble happens and one might not notice....best to turn everything off. |
I tried Foobar on my Mac and could not get it to work. Kinsky is a bit bare-bones, but if it gives the best SQ, that is what I’m after. Ease of use is secondary to me. That’s why all of my files are in .wav format. Minimserver does allow one to change the displayed items and tags quite a bit. Steve N. |
Steve, try Fubar as well.... Minimserver and Fubar are a bit basic for my tastes but they are as bare boned regarding processing as they come. I have not used the Linn software so have no experience. I’m SO deep into my footer/shelf comparison I can’t think about trying different software now. I am still waiting for Sam and Mark to play with HQPlayer and a few others to fine tune them for my Memory Player before I go that direction. Thanks for reporting! It’s always good to hear what software is working for people. |
It's here: https://www.audiostream.com/content/empirical-audio-overdrive-sx-ethernet-dacpre BTW, I figured out what was making the vocalist sound recessed for the reviewer. It was Jriver. I am using Minimserver and Linn Kinsky instead now and getting much better results. Much more live, much better bass. Minor negatives mentioned in the review are fixed. I guess the DSP in Jriver is not that good. It thought I had overcome the software issues with Ethernet, but evidently not. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
A bit off topic, but I know Matt has been a client of Dave's at the Audio Doctor in Jersey City (audiotroy) and I wanted to publicly thank Dave for a most pleasant and informative phone conversation today. We discussed loudspeakers I was interested in, and Dave provided very honest evaluations of those he carries. I've read a lot of comments bashing the guy, but he really impressed me. And now, back to our regularly scheduled programming... |
@audioengr Hi Steve, You mentioned the ODSX review. Can you point us to it? I couldn't find it doing a quick Google search and didn't see a link on your website either. For those of you following along, Steve's DACs ARE special. I've heard them at least a few times at Newport and I still remember how amazingly clear and pristine the sound was, just beautiful. Not analytical in any way, but also not lacking in detail or air. If you get a chance, check his gear out. You will be very pleasantly astonished. |
Volume control is a check-box that every playback software must have I guess. I think there might be some that believe it's a liability to have a volume defeat/bypass button because some users might think the volume is active and set low and then blow-up their speakers because it is actually bypassed. I'm sure that coloring the sound with volume DSP is not intentional, but I have heard it many times, more times than not. At shows I have used DSP equalizers and crossovers and they always seem to color the sound, even when they are set flat. I avoid them now for that reason. I think the least coloration I have heard from an volume DSP is Amarra, Sonic Studio. I believe that many manufacturers don't have resolving enough or low-noise systems that they can tell whether their DSP software is coloring the sound or not. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
You have to ask yourself, if there is no depth to the recording, can a DAC synthesize depth? I think it's kind of like asking the DAC to deliver detail in a recording that is not there. I think it is more likely that the improved depth is the result of a better D/A. The ODSX is more expensive, so you should expect that. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
I actually don't remember the name of a couple of them as I'm still new to the personal audio world. The Walker gear was outstanding. Some of the DACs that sounded nice from 100hz up were with the Stat's and I've yet to hear a stat that has enough bass for me ( sold my Stax a couple of years ago.). Like I said, I was impressed by the Cayin gear. |
“We're like licorice. Not everybody likes licorice, but the people who like licorice really like licorice.” Like most things, there is licorice and then there is fine licorice. ct - It is the DSP feature of volume control that virtually all of these players force your data to be processed through. I think it's just easier for them to set 0dB for DSP code than to bypass it. Also, it takes yet another knob in the GUI to bypass it. Maybe they are afraid that some users will inadvertently set this knob and blow up their speakers, even though the volume control is set to low. Liability... Steve N.Empirical Audio |
I spent a lot of time on Sunday at the Schitt table. I know I'll get flamed for this, but I really felt let down. I heard their top offerings in the most recent form I'm assuming and wasn't impressed. You won't get flamed at all. The Schiit Yggdrasil isn't for everyone. It's akin to what Jerry has to say about the Grateful Dead. “We're like licorice. Not everybody likes licorice, but the people who like licorice really like licorice.” |
ct - thanks for the kind words. Since the ODSX review came out, I tried a different player software than Jriver. Minimserver with Linn Kinsky. This actually sounds more live and more impactful than Jriver. Not sure any reviewer would be willing to do this though. A bit more work to install both of these and configure them. This is yet another datapoint that shows that the volume DSP in these players mucks-up the sound quality. I wish all of them simply had a bypass for the volume control rather than maximum setting. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
