A stupid question(s) about power cords

. . . as an example of what I was talking about, I remember once I was listening to the red book mfsl Eric Clapton/Slow Hand and on the mellower tracks, Lay Down Sally and May You Never and Next Time You See Her, it was so apparent to me that the scratchiness in his voice was not due to a less than stellar disc, but it was due to the abuse his vocal cords had been taking with the cigarettes and what have you (Slow Hand was released near the end of '77, and I think they were all pretty much living in the fast lane about then), and the guitar work on those tracks, in particular, was just hanging in mid air in front of me.  I don't know that I have ever quite heard that ever since.

Anyway, what my system does for me with a good source CD is that with the lights off and my eyes shut, the walls in my small room disappear as do the speakers.  Don't get me wrong--I am not saying that I am fooled into believing that it is live as opposed to being Memorex . . . that isn't happening.  I assume that is what is meant by those who talk about experiencing The Holy Grail.  But my goal is to enhance what my system is doing for me.  I am happy to experiment with $150 worth of power cords to see if that makes it inches better for me.

@mrdecibel   , this next is not intended to be sarcastic or confrontational or to express anything negative . . . I am truly and simply curious.  I didn't take what you typed as a rant and I did not take it,badly the way it was offered.  But given what you typed about what makes the listening experience work for you, why bother with upgraded equipment and power cords and etc?  

OP as you know we both own marantz SA10.It benefits from quality pc if synergize. I use high fidelity ct1 , my Rubr is using Audioquest tornado . They benefited from the upgrade. Heimdall pc if your system is not on the bright side.

@audphile1 +1

Well…you’re not the only one experiencing this.
There are a lot of factors that can contribute to you not being able to experience the same magic every time. Some are…mood, how stressed and tense you are, tired or rested, allergies/sinus pressure, power quality, streaming quality (I still think it varies periodically), noise in the house, etc.

So don’t sweat it. 

Listen, to the " musicianship " and the " composition ". Everything else will follow. Why are listeners so involved in the acoustics of the performance, rather than the performance itself. Once an instrument or voice enters a mic or a mixing console, and is then manipulated by the producers, engineers and other studio folks, all the real and lifelike nuances are lost. Listeners keep trying to maintain the tone of the instruments/voices, and the localization of the musicians. It is all fabricated. If you listen to " what " the musicians are doing, the tones and placements become secondary, and your listening life will be simpler. This is the way musicians listen, and this is the way I listen. Over the years I have tried to communicate this way of listening to people with their audio rigs, but " give me that sound stage " and I am happy. Maybe because I was a singer in my earlier years and had a wonderful coach/teacher. Maybe, because I spent some time in recording studios (when it was all analog). I feel the simplicity of listening has grown so out of proportion. Matt, talk about babbling...well I seem to do it to, ad nauseum. My rant is over...for now, lol.....Enjoy ! MrD.

@ghdprentice  , as I have said before:  I always appreciate your perspective and the way you present it.

@audphile1 

Hopping back in for a listen late last night revealed a slightly harsh treble that I didn’t detect few hours prior listening to the same track. 

this is interesting.  Although I don't think for me it is the same thing going on as it is for you, there have been nights I have played a disc and the effect has been magical, or if not magical, at least very impacting.  Then, like maybe a day or two or three or a week later I go back and I want to repeat that magical or at least impactful auditory experience with the same disc (and no changes made to the system in the mean time) and it just doesn't happen.  What I heard last time is not there.  It can be quite disappointing.  

In other words, what brought me close to aural orgasm last time, often sounds worse the next time.  It could be that the musical notes do not seem as round or as full as the last time, or that the guitar work does not float in the air in front of me quite as spectacularly as I remembered from the last time, or I am not hearing the same subtle inflection in a piece of vocal work that I swear I heard the last time, or even, as you say, I hear a harsher sounding treble than I did the last time.  

I generally chalk this up to:

a) I really was NOT hearing what I  THOUGHT I heard the time before

or b) the mind works in mysterious ways and I need to enjoy what sounds good to me WHEN it sounds good to me.

I didn't mean to ramble on like this when I started typing this reply, but, and this is sort of unrelated, back in the mid '90s up until 9/11 I worked in a great shop (except it was a sheet metal shop, so it was often noisy) and I kept an old boom-box type radio at my work table and I listened to what I thought was a great public radio station (WYEP 91.3) because they used to play a lot of stuff that no one else played that I had never heard before and quite often I would hear something or someone and think, "That sounds great!"  So then when the weekend came, I would go to Camelot Music or The Wall and buy or order the CD, and frequently it did not impress me on my system at home the way it did on that crappy boom-box radio at my work table.

Oh well . . . lRamble On. . . .

@ghdprentice +1 

Takes time and switching back and forth quickly doesn’t work. 
Take your time. Don’t rush. 

The Preffair cable is going thru a break in phase. Hopping back in for a listen late last night revealed a slightly harsh treble that I didn’t detect few hours prior listening to the same track. Not worried too much for multiple reasons. But curious how it will sound with 200+ hrs behind its belt. Pretty sure it will smooth out. 

Developing the “ear” to hear nuances takes time. A/B comparisons are really difficult at first and are often incredibly frustrating. A great way out of the dilema is to listen to music from a configuration or component for a couple weeks trying to listen to the music. Then change it, trying not to listen to your system… but the music, try not to make a judgement. Let your subconscious draw a conclusion and let it bubble up to your consciousness.
 

Music satisfies a subconscious need, that is why we do it. Our rational analytical mind does the choosing and system configuration. The trick is to get these two into synch. Once your subconscious is aware of a particular nuance of sound, then a quick A/B works well. But it can takes a long time to develop. There are nuance I can instantly detect now that I was clueless about for years.

Sometimes not trying to detect a difference is the best way to detect differences.

@mrdecibel ​​​ , @dill , I’ll just weigh back in here quickly to say that in a few more (three or four) weeks (or maybe less) when I have accumulated 100 hours on the new speakers and the cords, I am going to unhook the speakers and put the B&Ws back into the system and see what differences I then hear. From reading @audphile1 ’s posts, I know that my ears are not in the same league as his; however, if it turns out that I cannot hear a difference from the speakers that I spent 3k on, I will not say que sara, sara on that, and they will go back. At that point in time, I may even play around with the power cords which should then be burned in.

Going back to a previous post I made (and I have no doubt that this is fuel for derision, but what do I care), I think that certain sonic improvements can happen for some people (and I include myself) that they (meaning me) cannot immediately consciously identify; however, the improvements are recognized in the subconscious and result in increased listening pleasure over time. And I also believe that these small sonic improvements add up.

A few years ago I was talking to one of the guys in sales at Cary (they will actually talk to you on the phone if you want to buy something) about some Amperex Bugle Boys 6DJ8s they had, and in the course of the conversation he told me, "Tube rolling can make you neurotic." Tubes are easy to take in and out and with certain tube swaps sonic changes are easily and instantly recognized. It’s a bit more work to get behind my gear the way I have it and then get to the outlets that I put in a bit of an out of the way place, and if tube rolling could cause neurosis, I think that a whole lot of time trying to A/B power cords might put me into full blown psychosis. However, with that typed, if I had spent several hundred to a k or more on one power cord, I would be definitely trying to hear a difference,

So here’s the thing with Rhodium plated connectors in my system…it can get too much. At one point I had all Furutech power cables with FI-50 and FI-50 NCF Rhodium plated plugs plugged into Furutech GTX-D NCF outlets. In addition my speaker cables, Audience AU24SX had Rhodium plated spades. As I added more Furutech cords with R connectors, the tonal balance shifted slightly to become a bit artificial. I kept the NCF outlets but sold the power cables and got Nordost Frey 2 (a pair on Pass mono amps), Nordost Heimdall 2 power cable is currently feeding my Pass XP-22 preamp. I’m expecting one more Heimdall 2 for DAC. O continue using speaker cables with R plated spades, Furutech DSS-4.1. I sold the Audience AU24SX sp cables. The balance is just right as I’m listening. 
The Preffair power cable is excellent on the Aurender N200 but I’ll see how it develops. Sound is pure, derailed, airy and natural now. Surprisingly good soundstage width and depth. I’m pretty thrilled with this cheap power cord. I’ll do a shootout with Nordost Heimdall 2 when I have everything settled. @mrdecibel you have a winner there especially considering the cost. 

I've been on the anti-rhodium bandwagon since the first time I saw it advertised.  

Using a 3 prong plug is good business as it makes a more solid connection (physical, not electrical) and it makes sure you are properly polarized.  

Most cords will have a ground anyway.  Don't bother shopping for one that doesn't.

Shielding isn't often discussed, and many of my power cords are not shielded, but I agree with Erik, it is a good idea.

Jerry

@dill , what are you implying ? Matt is going through a growth spurt with his system, if you have been paying attention to his threads. Unfortunately, making the power cable change and discussing any differences, will not be valid, since at a similar time Matt changed speakers. What he is hearing is a combination of the cables and the speakers, making it hard for him to distinguish any improvement between the supplied cables and the Chinese cables. I am glad he bought the 3 cables, because they are superior to the cables that come with the product and they will allow his gear to " open up " more, which is a real, positive characteristic we can all agree on. My best, MrD. 

@dill  , yes, if an improvement, even one so small that I will not IMMEDIATELY hear, can be made for around $150, I'll give it a try.  And if not, que sara, sara.

So, you don't have the ear for it and it is a hassle to change the cable, but you want to hear an improvement with a $50.00 power cable? 

@audphile1 Interesting that you got one to try. As I mentioned somewhere else, I could not build a cable as good as this for this silly amount of money. I have had power cables in my system retailing at $1K, and none of them blew me away, over these Preffairs. Different, yea, but better, not really. Not like a different amplifier, which is more substantial in differences. And of course, synergy. TY for letting us know. My best, MrD.

"I absolutely hate trying to A/B stuff (I don't have the ear for it, plus, the back of my components isn't the worst in the world, but it is not super-duper accessible either) so as opposed to going back and forth from components to power cords, at around $50 a pop, I ordered two more."

So, you don't have the ear for it and it is a hassle to change the cable, but you want to hear an improvement with a $50.00 power cable? 

@audphile1  , I absolutely hate trying to A/B stuff (I don't have the ear for it, plus, the back of my components isn't the worst in the world, but it is not super-duper accessible either) so as opposed to going back and forth from components to power cords, at around $50 a pop, I ordered two more.  The first one I bought from the SA10 has a tad over 40 hours on it now, and the two from the preamp and the amp are a tad over 30.  I elected to go with the gold plated option, because if rhodium actually is brighter, that is not the way I want to go--if anything, I could probably stand a bit more warmth.  However, at the same time I put the last two PCs in (amp and preamp), I also hooked up a new pair of Revel speakers I am auditioning from MD.

@mrdecibel and @immatthewj

while I’m waiting for the Nordost Heimdall 2 power cord to arrive, I decided I’ll check out this Preffair 10awg cable. I got the one with the knockoff Furutech FI-50 NCF plugs with allegedly copper connectors.

I parked it on my Aurender N200 streamer in place of the Audience forte f3.

Initial impressions…

Build: cable is solidly built and is flexible. Knockoff Copper connectors look OK, the copper is a bit rough looking (uneven color).
Sound: system is cold but I can’t find anything major to fault yet after a quick listen. Low noise floor, good tone. Definitely better than the stock cable and is at least as good as the cheap audience. I’ll give it a couple of weeks to break in but so far I have no complaints.

Here it is…https://a.co/d/gyr0IQj

For information on your original questions call Joe Abrams at Equus Audio or MIT Cables. They have both been helpful to me in the past.  

                                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

                       Another runway builder, to be disregarded!

       Enjoy experimenting with your systems and enhanced musical pleasure, @immatthewj  (et al).

 I do believe that an improvement could be made without me fully realizing what the improvement tangibly is--just that my level of comfort and satisfaction has increased to an extent. Possibly or even probably a small extent. But small + small = slightly bigger than small. 

                                                            +1

          System improvements always prove incremental and some: more profound than others.     Just another of the myriad of VARIABLES, when it comes to this hobby.

           btw: there are no, "stupid questions".     Just some of the responses one gets, when making an attempt at a bit of education/enlightenment.

                                                   Happy listening!

You'll be fine with either. And, newsflash, you will NOT hear a difference besides one caused by confirmation bias.

Thanks @mrdecibel ; I will keep you posted. I had to unplug everything to facilitate other goings on in the room, but I am hoping to have everything hooked back up by tomorrow. Life if full of compromises. I do believe that an improvement could be made without me fully relaizing what the improvement tangibly is--just that my level of comfort and satisfaction has increased to an extent. Possibly or even probably a small extent. But small + small = slightly bigger than small. I don’t talk a lot about this, because it opens things up for nay-sayers. "What!? So you THINK there MIGHT be an improvement in your SQ, but you don’t know for sure what it is, and you don’t know for sure IF it is? Seriously??" But the thing is, I do not have the golden ear so I do not immediately recognize differences in SQ and what they are. But it’s my time and my dime and if I wasn’t okay with it I wouldn’t do it.

A lot of pressure to be under, having to report back on a power cable difference. I want to say, this difference will not be as huge as changing out a preamp, but ime, as much as a tube. You need to know your system. You need to know the particular music you have chosen. You should enjoy the music you have chosen, and simply relax during the evaluation. This is harder with tube gear, again ime, because when a unit powers up, it can take more than 3-4 hours to be at its best. One of the many reasons I enjoy ss gear. Ready 100%, 100% of the time. I am sensitive to gear warm up and break in (another topic that has been discussed ad nauseam). Anyway Matt...be patient and enjoy yourself. The improvements will show up, on any device. Some of us are here for you ! MrD.

Cool. Sounds like the room is good enough to test the cables. 
Let us know how the amplifier sounds with the new cable 

@audphile1 and @mrdecibel

The room is near field and untreated eccept for the throw tugs I have covered the floor with. If the source material is good or better than good it will sing and the walls and speakers will disappear . . . a substandard source disc sounds horrible.

As far as bright, I wouldn’t call it that (except with certain discs); however, the SLP-05 replaced a modded SLP-90 which was a lot warmer. I got a lot more air and detail and a wider soundstage with more definition wit6h the SLP-05, but sometimes it seems on the cool side to me. I understand that an acoustically treated room would bring it to another level, but we just are not there yet.

@immatthewj I would hope that anyone who owns gear as you do, would have a dedicated room, or at least, a room that you have done some "conditioning" to. If the speaker/room/listening seat is not the best it could be, you are missing out on a lot of your audio investment. IME....just saying. MrD.

Yes the default sounded best to me as well. And if I’m not mistaken when you play an SACD the filter selection is disabled. I didn’t like the other filters and dither options as they just didn’t sound right to me. 

I would like to add though that the SA-10 isn’t a bright sounding player. How are your room acoustics? Area rug? Any absorption or diffusion on side walls?

I can do that, @audphile1  .  I guess  I was more interested in it's effect on the front end due to being based upon what the salesman from MD told me (when he was no doubt trying to sell a power cord as well as the CDP).  

And I had been wanting to ask you what your thoughts were on the filter selections with the SA 10?  I hate to admit it, but in the four years I have owned that component, I have never experimented--I have always left it in the 'default' setting.

(I seem to hate being contronted with choices and decisions.)  

@immatthewj I would put my best cord on the amp first and try it there for a few days. Then return to stock on the amp and listen to few of the same tracks. Then introduce the upgraded cord on digital and determine where it performs best.

@immatthewj Get one for your power amp as well. $150. all in for 3. You will grow into a believer, and a happy listener. They are so good for the price. My best, MrD.

@audphile1 , yeah...too easy to slip into a 'bug hunt'.  Although sometimes a necessity to get distracted from the why into the how.  I'm happy to be one that isn't in a situation where 'high-level scrutiny' of my IC & PC's demand that.

*L*  I'd need a sizable Lotto pick to advance on to that plane of audio that would include a space capable to demanding anal-lysis of mosquito chases.... ;)

It would take awhile as well, which would run out prior to demise of yours unruly; i'm not sure I'd want to haul that baggage into the Unknown Afterlife pending....

...not that I'm in any sort of hurry in that regard.... 

Thanks, @mrdecibel  , I was going to get back with you later on today and see what your opinion of that was.  As I typed a bit previously, I opted for gold plated as if I could get a bit more warmth going, I'd be happy.  So that settles it, I guess I am going to get another one, the same as this one I have now,  for my preamp.

@immatthewj fyi, the carbon fiber shell does not offer any more shielding, as the cables themselves are shielded. Theoretically, the aluminum alloy shell should offer more shielding than the carbon fiber shell. 

Enjoy....until it becomes ’not good enough’ once again.... 😏

@asvjerry this happens frequently. I won’t deny it. But then again it happens to us because we hear the difference and we want to hear what some other power cord or interconnect will sound like. Not the best situation to be in because it almost always means you’re switching to analytical listening looking for changes. Worst part about it is when some of us enter that mode it is extremely difficult to get out of. Guilty as charged here. I hate when it happens because instead of enjoying the music I’m comparing what row the mosquito farted in with cable A vs cable B. Was the mosquito better defined when he farted with one cable or component over the other? Was the mosquito fart texture better with one cable vs another?

If you hit a bullseye with synergy with your new cable or component, good chance you’re back to listening to music as opposed to listening to sounds much sooner. But it doesn’t always work this way. You get on a merry go round looking for your next upgrade. Sooner or later…

@audphile1 , it is installed connecting my SA10 to the grid and I put 3.5 hours on it tonight.  (in truth, I unplugged my system after I finished up this evening, so is not presently connected.)   I am starting out dabbling my toes in the water with the Preffair. I actually went with the gold plated option, because if Rhodium does make it a tad brighter, that is the opposite way I want to go as my system stands now. I love that SLP-05, but it is definitely not what my idea of a warm preamp is. Which I am not saying is a bad thing, but, again, if anything , my system could sound a touch warmer without hurting my feelings or my ears.

Speaking of preamps, I am going to get one for that also. However, I am thinking maybe I should put the cord that I just bought on to the preamp and go with the carbon fiber version for the SA10? I remember reading a previous power cord thread, and it was suggested that digital might benefit from being shielded?

@immatthewj it’s definitely very possible. 
So…when are you getting your upgraded power cable?

@audphile1 ....+(fill in your blank)....I’m totally ’in’ with ur previous enumerated list; in my distorted life, the only clarity in my hearing is through a pair of BTE aids for my compromise....

ICs’, PCs’, Driver lines.....? I’d have to dial ’em up to 11, and Still have to strain the between them to Perhaps notice anything above my tinnitus threshold...

So...the Lucky can, and the rest be Believers in the Maybe...

Enjoy....until it becomes 'not good enough' once again.... 😏

I think that there are some subtle sonic changes that can occur without certain listeners (and I include myself) from consciously realizing that the changes are actually occurring.  But I also think that they add up and make for a more pleasurable listening experience, although some listeners (myself included) do not always immediately recognize why they are finding it more enjoyable.

I already know what the response to this theory is.  

@audphile1 Great list. I have been part of this industry for a very long time. Since the internet, it simply amazes me how ignorant some people actually are. I am too adult to name call (but I will defend myself). However, to call someone "ignorant" is basically saying what you really mean, but politely. In this case, anyway. Enjoy ! MrD.

@audphile1

+1… all posts above.

As far as not hearing the difference. I think it need not come from hearing deficiency, but it is possible the person is not focused or interested in a (or a number of) particular aspect(s).

As an example from a different realm:

When my partner and I watch a movie… I might exclaim “look at that Monteblanc fountain pen”… and she will reply… “what pen? You are really observant.” Which may or may not be true, I am just observe different things. She may have observed the nuance of a dress that didn’t notice at all.

Anyway this is an attempt at understanding why some folks don’t seem to hear differences that are obvious to the rest of us. I probabably know 25 folks with extensive high end experience. We can swap a power cord or something and compare notes and make exactly the same observations… in great detail. One of these folks hardly ever hears the difference.

What I do not understand is why some folks that don’t hear anything and therefore adamantly call BS on it. If I am learning, I want to… well, learn and understand. So, I would be trying different things and reading, ask questions, and if I concluded I couldn’t hear a difference… I would just not read posts about wires, let alone join in. The reality is, by broadcasting “all this is BS”, you’re only broadcasting your own lack of understanding and overinflated ego.

audphile1,

Your list was very good.

In summary, if your equipment, room, ears are of such quality, the proper power cords will enhance the listening experience. Some more so than others. So, experiment is the word. 

Remember the phase it is only as good as the weakest link?

Those who disagree, can, but they are missing out the experience of truly hearing music performed at the best.

Enjoy! But please don’t knock something you have never tried; it makes you look foolish.

ozzy

@classicrockfan & @botrytis -

                                             Once again:

     Isn't it amusing: someone that doesn't even know what Physics considers the best electrical conductor, has the unmitigated gall to mention Science?

                                             What hubris!

                 A perfect example of The Dunning- Kruger Effect!

                              A JOKE?     YES (and a BAD ONE)!

                                 Let's make that: TWO bad jokes.

                                                      🙄

                                          Happy Listening!

Don’t run with scissors or put them in power plugs

👍

By the way I had no intention to sound obnoxious or arrogant with that list I posted earlier.

@audphile1  , I didn't take it that way at all--those all seem to me to be legitimate reasons.  Especially as far as hearing goes.

@immatthewj it’s all about trying the power cord upgrade for yourself. Some power cords result in very minor changes, some produce a difference big enough to go wow. One such example for me was the Nordost Brahma power cable that I tried on Rogue RP-1 preamp that I had at the time. The difference was huge. Bigger improvement than rolling tubes or changing interconnects.
It all depends. Your nearfield listening at lower volumes may not interact with room acoustics as much, allowing you to hear even subtle changes. Trying is the only way to find out.
By the way I had no intention to sound obnoxious or arrogant with that list I posted earlier. I’m going strictly by my experience. Expensive cables make no sense in the context of a system that can’t reveal the changes or the room that has acoustics of a tiled bathroom. The priority should always be components first, then room, then cables and tweaks.

I’d suggest one of the new Shunyata Gamma series 

@audphile1 , I suppose that to be honest I do fit into a couple of the categories on the list. Although, with all things being relative, my equipment is probably okay, my room is small and acoustically untreated and I am near-field listening (unobstructed equilateral triangle) which I have read on this site may take the room somewhat out of the equation. And I suppose that it is possible that I either lack the ability to hear all sonic changes or I may lack the ability to realize that I am hearing all the differences.

However I would say that: I did make a couple of equipment upgrades in the last four years (the SA10 that was kind of the driver for this thread and a SLP-05) and I was able to hear the differences, particularly with the SLP-05. Also I will say that I have been rolling some pairs of 6SN7s in the balanced input sockets of the SLP-05 and when I put a real nice pair in there, I definitely do hear it. Also, with good source material in the SA10, the sonic effect works magic on me. As an example, last night I played three discs that I liked the music on: the Sony SBM (redbook) remaster of Born To Run sounded like nails on a chalkboard, the MFSL redbook of Goodbye Yellow Brick Road sounded better on certain tracks but overall not a whole lot better, but when I put the MFSL/SACD of Cowboy Junkies Whites Off Earth Now . . . as I typed--magic. I wish my oldy but moldys could sound that good.

So with that last paragraph typed, I am not completely devoid of the ability to hear, and I’ll just have to see/hear how it goes. I’d also say that way way back in the days when I upgraded speaker wires and interconnects, I do not remember being slapped in the face with an "OMG, that sounds better!" but I do know that I felt a contentment when I was listening that drove me to listen longer and more frequently. Of course, I have no doubt that my hearing was better back then.

Ignorance

I missed nothing.
You can call it whatever. The list is 100% accurate. Post pictures of your system. I’ll prove it to you.