3 New UBER Decks - Is this Turntable's SwanSong? 🦢
Michael Fremer has recently reviewed three new turntables designed to be the 'Last Word', 'Cost no Object' STATEMENTS!!!!........Do I recall hearing this claim before??
I love Mikey and have followed (and trusted) him for decades. He has been the longest and foremost published 'champion' of the superiority of vinyl (uber alles) in the world. I am thus ecstatic that he has been able to listen and compare these decks in his own room, with his own equipment virtually side-by-side It's almost a 'given' that he will be the ONLY person on earth given that privilege....
So what Mikey HEARS.....is indisputable
Given his 'character' and desire for accuracy and honesty.....years ago, Mikey started including some 'objective' measurements in his turntable reviews. These measurements were done utilising the Dr Feikert PlatterSpeed App which has since been discontinued. As the App only worked with the Mac iOS of many variations ago.....Mikey has kept an old iPhone which can still operate the App. The PlatterSpeed App had a few technical limitations..... Foremost amongst these, was its dependence on a 7" record with an embedded 3150 Hz Frequency track to produce a test-tone which the App could process through its algorithm to produce the graphs and all the corresponding numbers. To stamp hundreds of 7" discs with perfectly 'centred' HOLES is a nigh impossibility. It's almost impossible to do it with a 12" disc!!!
This means that ALL the figures produced in their Chart Info are dubious and mostly UNREPEATABLE!!!! I have Chart Infos for the same turntable/arm combination but with the 7" disc moved slightly producing different figures. I even have Chart Infos produced with the same turntable but different arms ALL with different figures (the arms are in different positions surrounding my TURNTABLE).
So what is my point......? The GRAPH produced with the PlatterSpeed App is accurate and USEABLE when looking at the 'Green' Lowpass-Filtered Frequency. If the hole was PERFECTLY centred.....this 'Green' line would be perfectly STRAIGHT......but only if the turntable was maintaining its speed PERFECTLY. The wobbles in the 'Green' line are due to the hole's eccentricity as well as any speed aberrations. So the best performing turntables are those with the most constant and even wobbles approaching as closely as possible a STRAIGHT LINE.
It appears that SAT have corrupted what is a very good DD Motor unit....🥴
Mikey says that the OMA-K3 produced the best PlatterApp figures of any turntable he has tested 👏 Does this mean that the OMA-K3 is the most accurate turntable of these three decks.....or maybe of ALL turntables?
Mikey can't (and won't) test and review products from the past which are no longer produced because that's not his job! But wouldn't it be great if someone WOULD review products from the past against the modern equivalent? Classic turntables with reputations....gravitas...like the legendary EMT 927 and Micro Seiki SX-5000 and SX-8000. And what about the NOW lauded Japanese DD Turntables from the '80s...the 'Golden Age' of Analogue?
Technics SP-10Mk3
Kenwood L-07D
Pioneer P3
Victor TT-101
Yamaha GT-2000
Because we know that Direct Drive is now 'Flavour of the Month' for the new Uber Decks due to their superior speed accuracy....a 'Flavour' that started with the legendary Rockport Sirius III.
Dear @grooves : Thank's to come here with your answer. What I posted to you about was with a positive attitude looking for this MF and I never imagine you come here to post on it.
The fully analog imperfections makes that almost any analog subject could be controversial, as this one ( green vs yellow. ). The longer and deepest controversial dialogues takes the analog stages.
In the other side and because no one but you are more close to the LP manufacturers it's " imperative " that the QC be a real and true QC with " zero " tolerance.
You and any single audiophile in the world needs that the LPs be perfect centered ( both sides. ), no surface waves or irregularities and is imperative that those can happens because every one of us ( including you ) spend money and precious time fine tunning each one room/system only for the LP comes an " destroy " the quality level performance of those room/systems.
I know that you understand perfectly and your direct help with all those LP manufacturers is and will be appreciated for those " things " happen in the short time.
Mikey is the only one being able to compare all that fancy TTs. Regarding prices it is a never ending story. Maybe I should come up with a million dollar baby…Why not consuming Mikey´s thoughts, it gives information and discussion opportunity for the guys like us. I am always asking myself what are the real innovations in turntable building. Are they shown in these units? i miss a real airbearing design which I have. I miss two exact running motors on both sides of a table, I have two installations and be very happy with it. I do own three DDs, among them a completely restored Victor 101. Why should I add 100 thousand dollars for a SAT table or an OMA design despite the Schröder arm looks interesting. Maybe one day Mikey got enough from the business and will be able to build up a real listening room 😂
Edgewear is simply jealous. He’s not heard any of these turntables but he’s eager to call wealthy people fools. That’s interesting. The ones I’ve met are damn smart and not easily fooled.
BTW: I never use phrases like “LAST WORD” or words like “STATEMENT”. Those are reserved for hack writers who sit “SLACK JAWED” to products that “RAISE THE BAR” etc.
I am careful to state that these Platterspeed measurements are for “entertainment purposes only”. All test records are faulty as are all records to one degree or another yet I much prefer records to all digital formats. That said, I use the same 7” Feickert test record for every test so while the record isn’t perfect the relative results are 100% accurate. Plus the results in green have been filtered to eliminate the effects of eccentricity. The SAT measurement was better than the SP10R’s. The OMA’s was best I’ve measured. The cheapest CD player will measure better but sound far worse. I’m now using the Shaknspin to measure speed, wow, flutter etc. it doesn’t rely upon a test record. It confirms the excellence of the OMA’s speed performance. As someone who professes to read and trust me you know that I almost never engage in hysterical hyperbole about BEST EVER. The AF Zero, SAT XD-1 and OMA are 3 great turntables and the SAT arm and Schroder OMA arm are the at the top of what I’ve so far heard. Buyers keying off of my SAT review have been in 100% agreement. When I wrote that I’ve not heard two other top contenders, the Axiom and Vertere, a reader in Asia who owns all 3 said he thought the SAT the best among them. Visitors who got to hear all 3 turntables thought they were clearly among the finest they’d heard though all sounded different from one another, and sounded as I’d written (once the reviews were published). Finally, the poster who claimed I didn’t own a turntable in the ‘80s and had proclaimed digital best is either a liar or an ignoramus or both. I’ve been fighting the vinyl fight since hearing my first CD at an 80s AES.
@rauliruegas, I think the problem with record manufacture is a matter of cost and what the market will bear. It is possible to make a near perfect record but this means higher tolerances and more maintenance. Pressing records is not a laissez faire operation. Every record is pressed in 30 seconds under some ridiculous amount of pressure. I think I read 2000 psi. at 350 degrees. All this is going to put a lot of wear on various parts. These machines require a lot of maintenance. This is no excuse for record stampers punched off center. I believe that is due to operator error.
Richardkrebs, give me a break. Show me the perfectly flat and concentric record. It is not my fault that this makes your work somewhat less important. I have no irons in the fire. It might have been better if you just admitted that these irregularities do cause changes in pitch that might mask turntable speed irregularities. We all want accurate turntables but there is a certain degree of insanity in this. It's just like cars. "My Porsche goes 200 mph." "But, my Ferrari goes 204 mph." Who the heck ever drives that fast! My Porsche will hold a weeks worth of groceries and I can carry my mountain bike on it's roof racks. Try that in your terribly unreliable and difficult to service piece of Italian rubbish! (just comical relief folks, Ferraris are works of art.)
Wow ,I am old ,I remember when a AR turntable for $99 was state of art...Those were the days my friend....I thought they never end...but i did do acid and alot of pot back then.
Pressing imperfections are not solely the fault of the pressing plant but also parties approving the test pressing. Quality control is nearly a lost discipline.
Your wide explanation of the yellow raw frequency is really an eye open and truly welcomed.
I'm delighted to see that at least two people here are naive (or foolish) enough to believe that the yellow RAW Frequency Plot is of any value without a computer algorithm to correct for record warps, hole eccentricity etc because I think I've found that elusive pure sine wave for the Raw Frequency that Richard Krebs was unable to supply for his OMA-K1.....?
@rauliruegas You bring up a great point, why do LP manufacturers get away with providing what in many cases is a sub par product? The answer is what I think you touched on...because they can! I noticed on an email that was sent to me yesterday from Elusive Disc that Analogue Productions is increasing their price structure, across the board...and to order now before the price increase. Why is AP able to do this...same reason as above!
Dear friends: For many years now we all were spending " thousands " of $$$$ for our LPs that its prices always goes up and up.
I can't understand for sure why with all those money manufactures took and take for us no single LP pressed is dead-centered on both sides and with out waves/surface irregularities.
In theory we pay more than enough to receive a " perfect " LPs and we just never can do it.
I know that analog is way imperfect but seems to me that those LP manufacturers are full responsable of that specific issue but we audiophiles are not really demanding about an : accepted as " normal " behavior ! ! ! ? ? ?
Thanks for your comment. Yes the test record is what most of us use if we are to look at W&F, and as I have said earlier, it is useful to broadly differentiate between TTs. This despite the many variables in play. I also pointed out that we abandoned the platter speed app, this was during the development of K1. An interesting aside is that K1 had a similar subsonic resonance as seen in the TT-101. It was not always there and we could induce it by stopping and starting. The controller we used enabled us to tune this aberration out. Clearly visible on the yellow trace, this detail was filtered out on the green. At that stage, in its early development, K1 had a similar messy yellow trace to some of the TT's posted here.
Mijostyn
"The wow and flutter of good modern turntables is hidden in the noise of record irregularity and eccentricities. All this is interesting and totally academic."
We are going to have to agree to differ on that one.
Cheers.
The wow and flutter of good modern turntables is hidden in the noise of record irregularity and eccentricities. All this is interesting and totally academic.
@rauliruegas , sorry I missed your last post. Yes, it is very possible that one side could be off center in a different direction. I have never seen it in the records that were off center as I never thought to compared sides. But if you look at the way records are pressed the A and B side stampers or fathers are punched individually. One could be punched off center and the other not. I will carefully look at off center records to see what the other side does.
I have not tried it but you could fill the off center hole with a mixture of epoxy and ebony dust. You would contact cement wax paper to one side and fill the hole from the other. After the epoxy sets you remove the wax paper and clean off the contact cement with lacquer thinner. You would then mark the center using a compass and drill a new hole. The record has to be fixed on a drill press so that the drill does not walk off center.
Dear @richardkrebs : "" within its limitations, the platter speed app does give a reasonable snap shot of what the platter is doing and is thus useful in differentiating between TT's ""
I remember that about 15-20 years ago in this same forum we were in a thread making some comparisons between TTs specs and w&f was one " critical " parameter on that comparisons. Some one there that I can't remember for sure ( I think was T-bone. ) posted that w&f can't tell us the whole true about because we don't know which test record/tonearm/cartridge were used to achieve that w&f figure.
Now, TT Japanese manufacturers ( I think ) knew this " trouble " that could impedes that the spec all of us can be take it as a " reference " but that's what we all have from last 50 years. Does not exist other " standard " for that measures spec and we audiophiles needs " something " as reference.
All de " bibles " on audio items characteristics/specs came in that way either the japanese bible as the information that came from years in magazynes as Audio and Stereo Review and I think High Fidelity too !!!
What BT posted is only useful for each individual system owner with the lab to do it and this just can't happen.
So it's not that reviewers are wrong because that's what they have on hand.
Your wide explanation of the yellow raw frequency is really an eye open and truly welcomed.
It's really easy: we can't do what BT did it to prove that his LT is " superior " and why is that way and his explanation is welcomed too but impractical for us mere mortals.
Try to be scientific in extreme as dover likes is interesting but in this specific regards useless. Yes I learned today from all of you and thank's for that.
R.
@dover ""
It is not possible to measure wow & flutter using a test record. ""
It's what we have, so no real alternative but to read the raw frequency in the app like it or not.
That said, within its limitations, the platter speed app does give a reasonable snap shot of what the platter is doing and is thus useful in differentiating between TT’s, as I have been trying to demonstrate.
I dont agree - too many variables. My nephew has a double PHD in Maths and Physics, specialises in predictive modelling, and even with the firepower at his disposal ( heads up a team for one the worlds largest banks ) I doubt that any conclusions could be drawn even if you had a database of 1000’s of tests - by conclusions I mean anything statistically and scientifically relevant.
We are measuring well in excess of 1 million directly read samples per revolution.
GP Monaco made similar claims, and then they came out with a Mark 1.5, then a Mark 2 and so on. Of course there are now electrical components capable of switching at a trillionth of a second, so a million every 1.8 seconds might impress the pundits, but what does it mean really - your TT almost as good as digital ??
Halcro. I echo Raul in that I'm happy that you are enjoying your TT's. After all, this is what this hobby is all about.
Dover. Thank you for your sage input. Yes the arm/cartridge are part of the loop so they do impact the figures, Halcro has just demonstrated that. That said, within its limitations, the platter speed app does give a reasonable snap shot of what the platter is doing and is thus useful in differentiating between TT's, as I have been trying to demonstrate. But we abandoned it during the development phase, partially for the reasons you mentioned and due to its lack of consistency. Primarily though, it simply doesn't have the granularity we were looking for. We are measuring well in excess of 1 million directly read samples per revolution.
While cartridges are important, their tracking ability, tonal balance, naturalness, dynamics, pitch definition etc. all can be hugely affected by the choice of tonearm (and phono stage, and setup).
Musical timing in my view is not only affected by TT speed stability, but also arm/cartridge/phono considerations. From my own ears, Bruce’s assertions with regard to his linear tracker and wow and flutter are on the money.
It’s all smoke and mirrors and fanciful postulation from the uneducated.
👍 I've heard nothing but positive reports about Bruce Thigpen and especially his ET 2.5 Airbearing Tonearm. For years I've dreamt about installing his ingenious TRW-17 attic-mounted subwoofer 🤔
Thanks for posting that interesting article from him. Maybe that's the reason each different tonearm produces a different result on the same turntable....?
It’s all smoke and mirrors and fanciful postulation from the uneducated. It is not possible to measure wow & flutter using a test record.
If you use a rotary function generator to measure the turntable performance directly off the platter, the results will be more accurate than any test record.
For an explanation from someone who actually has a degree in physics and acoustical engineering - Bruce Thigpen of Eminent Technology.
Here is Bruces explanation from his Eminent Technology website.
Bruce has many patents and inventions including his unique air bearing tonearm, rotary subwoofer, vacuum platter as implenmented by SOTA, and many others.
Bruce Thigpen -
Reviewers have incorrectly attributed wow and flutter to the turntable. Since the advent of the belt drive turntable, wow and flutter has been purely a function of tonearm geometry, the phono cartridge compliance with the elastomeric damping, and surface irregularities in the LP. In our own lab we have measured many high quality turntables using a rotary function generator directly connected to the platters of the turntables.
The measured results are usually an order of magnitude better than the results using a tonearm and test record (conventional wow and flutter method). Further proof exists if you take two tonearms, one straight line and one pivoted and mount them both on the same turntable. The straight line tonearm will give a wow and flutter reading with the same cartridge/test record of about 2/3 to 1⁄2that of the pivoted arm (.03% < .07% to .05%). This is because the straight line tonearm has a geometry advantage and lateral motion does not result in stylus longitudinal motion along the groove of the record.
Another proof is to take two different cartridges, one high compliance and one low compliance, and take measurements with both using the same turntable and tonearm. The reading of wow and flutter will be different. All wow and flutter readings are higher than the rotational consistency of the turntable.
A far more accurate and useful metric of the speed accuracy of a TT is to simply look at the raw yellow trace, ignoring the numbers. How close is it to the ideal symmetrical, clean, constant amplitude, sine wave?
I can't see a clean, constant-amplitude sine wave for the OMA-K3...?
A clean sine wave, symmetrically centred around 3150hz with a constant amplitude for each cycle. As we can see, advances in technology have clearly improved the situation.
I'm looking for that clean sine-wave but I just can't see it for the OMA-K3? Please help me here.....🙏
I introduced this Thread by describing the limitations of the PlatterSpeed App that Michael Fremer has been using for years to test turntables.
The GRAPH produced with the PlatterSpeed App is accurate and USEABLE when looking at the 'Green' Lowpass-Filtered Frequency. If the hole was PERFECTLY centred.....this 'Green' line would be perfectly STRAIGHT......but only if the turntable was maintaining its speed PERFECTLY. So the best performing turntables are those with the most constant and even wobbles approaching as closely as possible a STRAIGHT LINE.
The yellow RAW Frequency Plot is what is measured from the 3150 Hz Test Tone and makes NO compensation for the record 'hole eccentricity'. The 'Green' Lowpass-Filtered Frequency uses the PlatterSpeed Algorithm to 'filter' the 'hole-eccentricity' and produce an accurate graphical plot of the turntable's performance.
If we didn't have the GREEN Frequency Plot that PlatterApp gives us......we wouldn't need PlatterApp at all!!! 🤪 We could ALL just do a Plot of the RAW Frequency response of a random 3150 Hz Test Tone 🤗
Having been embarrassed by the results of the OMA-K3 compared to the 40 year-old Victor TT-101.....Richard Krebs (the designer of the "most powerful turntable motor on earth") now wants an AUDIT of the 'votes cast' and disqualify those votes shown to be unfavourable to HIS candidate and count only the single vote he believes will allow his turntable to win 😂
The following Plots are done with my 40 year-old Victor TT-81 DD Turntable (bought for $500) with the Test-Disc fixed in one location and the three differently positioned tonearms playing the Test-Tone.
Note the almost STRAIGHT line of the 'Green' Plot for the WE-8000/ST. The OMA-K3 can't get close.....
Now the fundamental revelation of these three Plots, is that whilst the YELLOW 'Raw Frequency Plot' varies wildly for all three arms.....the GREEN 'Low-Pass Filtered Plot' remains relatively stable and consequently USABLE!!!! 👏
Richard Krebs however, prefers to make his 'scientific' judgements from ONE meaningless RAW Plot.......🤯
I think that the numbers and
green graph are useful provided their limitations are taken into account.
Mean frequency....
This is a good
number to have. We are looking for 3150Hz, so nice and close to this is desirable.
Raw frequency…
Max deviation. (relative )
This is the max percentage deviation, negative and positive, from the mean
frequency. Ideally the two numbers should be the same
Max deviation (absolute) This
is the max frequency deviation, negative and positive from the mean frequency. Ideally
the two numbers should be the same.
What the deviation numbers do
not show is the variation between the deviation of individual positive and negative
swings. They all should be the same, (constant amplitude) and for this information we need to refer to the
yellow graph.
Lowpass-filtered Frequency.....
This data taken from the
green trace. The limitation here is that this trace is heavily filtered version
of the yellow trace. And it is very inconsistent from test to test.
Look at the 1000R yellow trace
and compare this with the TT-101 yellow trace. There is an enormous difference
yet, post filtering they yield very similar green traces
I have run sequential tests
on my SP10 Mk 3 and got Low pass -0.01%/+0.01% followed by -0.02%/ +0.03%. I have outlined some of the reasons for this inconsistency. As I said earlier, below a certain percentage, these figures aren't robust.
Obviously we do not want to
see any standout perturbations in the green trace and in this way it can be
very useful.
My point is that this data is
derived from the yellow trace which is taken from the cartridge output. After all, it is the cartridge’s output that we listen to. To really see how the TT is behaving in fine
detail, we need to analyse the yellow trace from the perspective of
what a perfectly speed stable TT would look like. A clean sine wave, symmetrically centred around 3150hz with a constant amplitude for each cycle. As we can see, advances in
technology have clearly improved the situation.
The subsonic speed resonance in
the TT-101 can be seen as periodic cycling every 5 revolutions. If you look at
the first traces you posted (yellow) , you will see a positive peak just after 5 seconds. This
peak appears again just after14 and 23 seconds. The smaller positive and negative excursions in between these peaks follow the same pattern with their 9 second spaced partners. There is a recurring pattern to the shape
of this waveform with a period of 9 seconds.
Dear @halcro : Years ago when every one including you were touted the JVC 101 I posted at least 3 times in those threads ( in your thread. ) that the 101 was an average TT with nothing especial to say Wow.
I know that you was so angry with me because my posts about but its specs are really mediocre/average for a DD unit with a w&f 0.02% and s/n 75db, normal for average TTs. Denons way superior on specs and some of its models came with bi-directional servos too but Denon decided not a good thing and return to single servo including in its top DP-100.
Other that what Richard pointed out a fact is in the price that had the 101 that was low:
The top of the line 801 specs were similar to the average Denon’s: 0.01% and 80db. This unit came with hold down LP mechanism and even that characteristic its price in Japan was 130,000 Yens when the Technics MK3 was ( in the same year. ) 250,000 Yens ( MK2: 150K. ). The 101 was 75K. These data comes from the audio Japan Bible.
Is it a bad TT ? no but you overrated with no clear facts that even today you have not and that’s why you are questioning RK.
Don’t distress about because you are enjoying it and this is what matters to you. So what ! ! the TT still is an average unit and nothing more.
Btw, even with out the RK posts all what I posted here is the same I posted years ago and I just confirmed again. Nothing changed and og course is only an opinion.
While turntables are not easy for the average person to truly compare, especially since they need the same arm and cart, I can relay some of my own experience upgrading tables.
Speed stability is a fantastic thing (listen to some Plangent process digital masterings vs. a standard one and you hear how solid it sounds when tape machine wow and flutter is corrected.
However I’m not sure that’s where the sonic benefits come from comparing well designed tables.
Many years ago I upgraded from a Raven One table that I heavily tweaked. It sat on a Halcyonics active vibration table with a Sistrum stand bypassing the table’s feet. It had a TTW copper platter top/clamp/ periphery ring and tape leader as a belt. It was a fantastic sounding table and taken to another level with tweeks.
I became so enamored with TTW’s accessories, I bought their Momentus Supreme table driven by 3 belts. I was expecting an improvement, but a nuanced one.
I put the same Graham Phantom II arm and Strain Gauge cart on the TTW and I was pretty shocked to hear just how much more dynamic the music was, and how much wider bandwidth it had.
This was just the pure table without vibration table or copper platter top. It was truly eye opening and a good lesson I suppose on how there is no getting around physics, at least as analog goes.
I can only imagine what a cost no object table sounds like..... (of course I’ve set myself up for someone to come back and say.... “it sounds like a $1000 dac”)
I haven’t fired up my Adjust Plus software (a more complex version of the App the measurement in this topic were taken from- but came with a 12” LP) in a very long time, because I’m a Mac guy and it’s PC only, but I’m now tempted to get it going and test out my table’s speed stability.
Yes.; The Yellow trace is a a long way away from the ideal sine wave, its pretty messy. This TT is not micro speed stable. As I implied before, on average it takes 1.8 seconds to complete a single revolution ( 33.333 rpm) so the filtered Green trace is nice, but not a robust measure of what is going on inside each revolution.
BTW the TT-101 is one of the TT's that has the subsonic resonance. It takes heavy duty real-time computing power to eliminate this. Maybe it was available back then but probably not in a device that was economically viable.
A far more accurate and useful metric of the speed accuracy of a TT is to simply look at the raw yellow trace, ignoring the numbers. How close is it to the ideal symmetrical, clean, constant amplitude, sine wave?
@lewm, I know this is anecdotal but here in Salem, NH we have a great media store, Bullmoose Records. They stock new records and I have never had a problem returning defective records. I buy many records on line. Elusive disc is always very accommodating and as a matter of fact replaced a copy of Weather Report's Mysterious Travelers because it was drilled off center. They also pack their records really well unlike Amazon who just throws them in a box and many get damaged. I try not to buy records from Amazon for this reason. Bandcamp is another interesting site to buy music from. I have had no problems with Acoustic Sounds. I do not buy used LPs and have no interest in it.
Dear @mijostyn : Then probably have to return all your LPs:
""
One thing to note is that there is nothing to prevent the eccentricity to be different on the two sides of the record. For example, the record may be perfectly centered on one side but off on the other, or it may be off on both sides but in different directions. ""
Now, in the past I bougth an item to " fix " manually the LP off-center and it works fine. I still have it somewhere and I remember that fix it but you need time/patience to do it and in those times I was more or less ignorant of the developed distortions by the off-center LP hole and a little lazy to fix it. The seller disappeared in short time.
Will last 40 years with minimal maintenance,....yes please. The asking prices for those TTs’ is just astronomical, and overpriced. Search most expensive audio gear, some of this stuff is mind blowing.
Thanks, Richard. Mijo, people like you put Tower Records out of business. That was a joke, but my point is that one cannot act as you suggest these days in the USA due to the dearth of brick and mortar LP stores. The ones we do have are primarily selling used LPs, each of which is unique. I don’t think one could get away with such buyer behavior doing business by mail order. Good story, though.
Re speed stability.
As has been noted, the numbers produced by the platter speed app vary from test
to test. This depends upon how the tester placed the record on the spindle,
there is a small amount of clearance, so the record can appear to have
different amounts of eccentricity each time it is placed on the platter. Also
it depends upon when the test is started relative to the point at which the arm
is swinging in and out due to the eccentricity. There will be a different
reading if the test started when the arm was at mid swing compared to if it was
at the inner or outer extreme. You can see the impact of this on the green
trace at the start of the plots. Some show an uptick or downtick at the zero
second mark due to the arm being at or near full excursion, (AF0, XD1, AC-2,
1000R, K3), where one is neutral with the arm’s swing more or less at its mid
point (TT-101).This biases the low pass numbers in favour of the TT-101. The
length of time the test runs also impacts on the final outcome. Then there is
the low pass filter that is applied to the raw data, this designed to remove
the impact of the records eccentricity. It is somewhat a blunt instrument in
that it also removes key data about the platters micro speed stability within
each revolution.
It is possible to do multiple tests and pick the best or worst numbers to
highlight whatever point you are trying to make. A reasonable conclusion
is that beyond a certain point, the numbers produced are of interest but are
not particularly robust data.
But what is pretty consistent and robust from test to test is the yellow trace.
(amplitude aside as mentioned above due to record/spindle positioning) The
platter speed app is interesting in that it first plots the CARTRIDGE OUTPUT as
a function of frequency with respect to time.
In a perfect world where the signal generator sent a constant 3150hz to a
perfect cutting lathe, we stamped a perfectly concentric record and played it
back on a perfectly speed stable TT, we would see the yellow trace as a
straight line at 3150hz
But of course, this is impossible and one of the major deviations from
perfection is that the record spindle hole is not in the centre. So if all
other parameters were still perfect and we considered a non concentric record,
we would see the cartridge output a clean sine wave, symmetrically
centred about 3150hz with a constant amplitude per cycle. IOW, a
TT producing a yellow trace that is a badly distorted sine wave is NOT speed
stable, although its speed could average 33.333. I hope that this is self evident. The program then puts this raw trace thru a low pass filter to remove the effect
of eccentricity, we now have the green trace. But what the low pass filter does
is filter distortion as well. This distortion is a graphical
representation of rapid speed changes. It is no longer visible and what we are
left with is a smoothed average which is used to compute the low pass filtered
numbers.
A far more accurate and useful metric of the speed accuracy of a TT is to
simply look at the raw yellow trace, ignoring the numbers. How close is it to
the ideal symmetrical, clean, constant amplitude, sine wave? Some of the
TTs mentioned in this thread, plot significant deviation from this ideal with quite
rapid and frequent speed changes.
Remember that the yellow trace is the cartridge output plotted as frequency
with respect to time, any distortion of the sine wave is a change in frequency,
thus a change in speed. These speed changes would be superimposed on any
music that was being played. With this in mind, I invite you to look again at
all of the speed plots
.
On top of this conundrum, the platter speed app does not load the system
dynamically since the 3150hz tone is of constant amplitude. This is a
whole different set of equally important measurements. We do not listen
to constant amplitude, single frequency tones.
BTW two of the TT plots posted have a low frequency oscillation with a period
of approximately 9 seconds. A low frequency oscillation with a multi second
period like this is not uncommon and is very difficult to eliminate.
@antinn, great example of a proper review. Now if all tonearm reviews were done that way we might be able to draw some meaningful comparisons. My only complaint is that the V15 was too compliant for the Tri Planar. My own experience with damping brushes was frustrating at best. 5 Hz is too low in everyone's book. No wonder bass performance suffered. Not sure how they crammed a Tri Planar on a Sota. Donna insists it does not work without significant modification but maybe that is just the more current versions.
I am going to agree with audioman85, dover for the most part, clearthinker and rauliruegas.
I am not so sure that vinyl is here to stay. Most of us older audiophiles have large record collections which makes owning a turntable mandatory. The people around at the time record sales exploded are now older, their kids are on their own and they have much more money to burn. While it is true that some young people are getting into vinyl, far more are getting into digital. I won't be around to see the outcome consequently I really do not care. If I did not have any records I doubt I would buy a turntable on the other hand people who point at all the problems with vinyl reproduction have obviously not heard a top notch turntable with a modern stylus profile set up correctly playing a clean record. It always amazes me how good this can sound.
IMHO the Nak TX-100 was overkill in the extreme. Typical Nakamichi. Shifting the center of the platter is going to alter it's balance which in time will do a number on it's main bearing. Many of us laughed at it. Off center records are a problem and can be quite audible. My solution was quite simple. I returned the record as defective, and kept returning them until I got a copy that was decent.
@gordon:crap maybe it was the early 90’s,everything but the last 10 years is pretty much a blurred image.. Best of my memory is that he & Julian Hirsch had a big brew ha ha about M.F.’s apparent flip of camps from digital to vinyl..
I know my hearing is good - 18khz at my last hearing test, and reasonably flat.
Good grief @dover ....that's amazing! Mine cuts out at about 11K Hz....🙉 No wonder you can hear things on my YouTube videos that I can't!!!
The chances that he can set up a top end turntable accurately is remote.
The fact that you pick on the only man on earth who actually makes a 'living' selling his vinyl setup videos is ironic..🤥 For twenty years I had a Rega Planar 3 with Hadcock GH-228 unipivot tonearm. If ANYONE can successfully master the adjustments on the GH-228 tonearm......everything else is a piece of cake 🤗 The Continuum Cobra and Copperhead arms are both PITA to setup for different cartridges and certainly not appropriate for a reviewer to use. I think that's the main reason Mikey changed to the 4-Point and then the SAT.
After setting up dozens of cartridges.....one can become quite adept at it. After setting up hundreds (as Mikey and I have done).....proficiency is not in doubt 😂 I've watched Mikey's setup procedure and don't do mine the same way...but then all of my tonearms (except for the Copperhead) have detachable headshells. I certainly DON'T follow his USB microscope torture for SRA of 92 degrees. If you can't HEAR when the VTA sounds best...you shouldn't be setting up a cartridge at all!!
I am the same age as Mikey, with good eyesight and steady hands. I can setup cartridges whilst I chew a sandwich, talk on the phone and watch CNN all at the same time 🙃
The design of K3's mechanicals is the work of a team led by Richard Krebs in New Zealand, the world's foremost authority on direct drive turntable technology.
Perhaps a Footnote is needed:-
Assuming all the Engineers at Technics, Victor, Pioneer, Yamaha, Kenwood et al are now deceased?
This is a good point. Personally I never heard about any Krebs product, except for his modification of Technics SP-10mkII motor on this forum. Is there anything else Richard Krebs actually made?
Also, to the argument about servo devices and their effect on sound quality, most upper end belt drive turntables these days employ some sort of mechanism that senses platter speed and feeds back to the motor for speed correction. Why is this harmless with belt drive turntables and yet an Achilles’ heel for direct drive turntables? Of course, I do not know whether Dover’s turntable uses such a speed correction device.
Dear friends : @dover said: "
what you want is stability..." and he is totally rigth because the most important characteristic in a TT is speed stability.
Btw, that his Final TT " slaughtered " all those DD TTs is just his opinion. It's like talk with a tube lover about SS electronics, obviously that for him tubes " slaughtered " SS alternative.
He said too: ""
My gut feel with historical top end DD's is that error correction servos, like digital, are doing the damage. ""
Obviously that's a " feeling " and here we have to remember that all the record cutting machines motors ( Technics between them ) used servo control. So if this servo correction is the problem why is not " reflected " in our LPs during play. I own and owned DD/BD and I can remember to identify that "
DD's sound thin ...." I think that's all about the whole room/system performance and not because the DD servo. servo.
I have owned very nice digital systems and currently own a very nice vinyl system. I love both formats. You can check more boxes with digital. This still comes down to personal preference. What do you like? Regardless of all of the technical talk and measurements; what brings out emotions (goose bumps) when listening???
For me, I still prefer analogue. My vinyl rig sounds exceptional...
@halcro I do not "not read reviews" or "ignore interesting writings" - I am saying you should take them as guides only, not gospel. I am not being harsh on Mikey, I'm 61 - I know my hearing is good - 18khz at my last hearing test, and reasonably flat, in other words no sign of hearing damage - but I know that my set up skills take a lot longer than 20 years ago and I need natural light to do it accurately. I dont expect to be the same at Mikey's age. Yes, if you follow someones writings you get a grasp of their preferences, but you still dont know what they are hearing. I tend to check the reference systems as well to triangulate their opinions. For example, if a reviewer is using gear that I've heard and dislike, then I put less weight on their opinion as it relates to potential purchase decisions for my own system. I enjoy Fremers writing and I know from my own knowledge of the gear he uses that I am familiar with that he is pretty reliable. Art Dudley I enjoy reading, but cant stand Devore Orangutangs, SPU's and vintage arms that sound thick and turgid. HP was great up until he lost interest around the time his boyfriend did a runner, the fire at Seacliff, and the advent of digital. Robert Greene was a great reviewer. And yes I enjoy Arthur Salvatores writing. Martin Colloms excellent, Ken Kesler overrated - he gets enthused about anything.
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