180g … It’s All Hype !

Welcome to the club. 

Too much generalizing and over-simplifying for me, but one sentence really stands out:

"with the same quality control they had back in the day."

If you think record labels manufactured their 1960’s/70/s/80’s LPs with the care Chad Kassem puts into his QRP pressings, well, I have some swamp land to sell you.

Suggestion: Compare original Buffalo Springfield LPs with the new reissues of those albums Neil Young is doing. If you prefer the originals, I’ll sell you mine for a hundred bucks each.

Another: The original Tea For The Tillerman LPs were mastered with Dolby noise reduction engaged in the chain. When Kassem went to reissue this record, he discovered the tape was not Dolby encoded. So the ’flat" tape had had most of it’s high end removed by the Dolby playback circuitry, drastically changing the timbre of Cat Stevens’ plastic-bodied Ovation acoustic guitar (and the drummer’s cymbals, which I always found severely lacking in shimmer).

If you prefer the sound of the original LPs, that’s your business. But to call them better than the Analogue Productions reissue tells us a lot about your judgment in sound quality. No offence intended. I compared my original UK Island pressing to the Analogue Productions version, and there was a very clear winner. Contrary to your assertion, the reissue was superior to the original in every way. And gee, it's a 180 gram slab of PVC.

bdp24

My experience with 180g LP’s has proven to me not worth the money…

Seriously… $40, $50, $60 or more for a record and it has nothing to do with my hearing… The ROI for me is not justified. 

You mention …“Too much generalizing and over-simplifying for me”

Didn’t feel like typing more so to answer you here’s just a few I’ve had issues with…and prefer my originals. 

• Jethro Tull - Songs From The Wood - Warped - Remixed & Orig Sounds Better
• Alan Parsons Project - Tales of Mystery& Imagination - Scuffed & Orig Sounds Better
• Al Stewart - Year of the Cat - Scuffed & Orig Sounds Better
• Led Zep - Physical Graffiti - remixed with unrecognized added rifts / leads - Orig Sounds Better 
• Blind Mellon - Sounds Like The CD was used as the master
• Louis Armstrong - Satch Plays Fats - Warped so bad was beyond ability to play and was replaced by the MFG. 

I’ve got several more as well…

Every one of my 180g LP’s have all been purchased “NEW”, several from local record shops others on line,  I just don’t understand where’s the QC, esp at the prices charged.

Not saying every older LP is an excellently MASTERED Recording, but there are many out there I make it a point to find and would be a total disservice if they even thought of remastering & reissuing. 

It’s easy to sound important and informed but I really make it a habit not to take sound advice from people who think you smoke LSD….

https://www.quora.com/Can-you-smoke-LSD

My System Sounds Great and My Listening Experience Transforming and to me that’s all that matters.

No offense intended

+1 on War “The World is a Ghetto.”  $5 and that’s one I would put on to show off my speakers.  Cisco Kid is a friend of mine too.

I agree. I don't buy expensive records. I get great satisfaction from finding great sounding, quiet playing records for $3.

A 180 gram record will sound different if you don't adjust VTA. 

I think they‘re mainly for the “use LP‘s to listen to sounds and their systems crowd“

drastically changing the timbre of Cat Stevens’ plastic-bodied Ovation acoustic guitar (and the drummer’s cymbals, which I always found severely lacking in shimmer).

in which case the music doesn‘t really matter anyway…

One example is the new pressing of Pink Floyd’s Wish You Were Here album. It is a 2016 pressing dist by Sony Music. Not sure it’s 180 gram but it is heavy. It is way better than the Columbia pressing that I bought in the 1970s. It is not just quieter but also sounds better.

I have a special edition Mobile Fidelity 200 gram version of Alan Parson’s Tales of Mystery and Imagination. It is clearly superior in sound to my original copy that I bought in 1977. I picked up this special edition at a stereo store in Las Vegas in 1994. This is one of my favorite stories to tell. I worked for Bosch at the time and was on a hot fuel test trip with Ford at their Arizona Proving Grounds. The work was done and I was back in Las Vegas with the afternoon and evening to kill before taking the redeye back to Detroit. I was wearing a golf shirt that had the Ford and Bosch logos stitched onto it. These were some team shirts that we had made for the trip. I had been wearing this shirt all day. I found a stereo store in Las Vegas and walked in to take a look around. That was my first encounter with Apogee speakers. Anyway, the store owner said that he liked my shirt because he liked Fords and he also sold Blaupunkt Radios (owned by Bosch). I spotted the Tales of Mystery and Imagination MFSL version on his record rack and said I would trade him my shirt for that record. He agreed so I went to the car and got out another shirt to wear and handed him my smelly sweaty Bosch/Ford shirt for the record. It was awesome and I recall that event every time I play it. btw- tried streaming the online newer version. The first song and mix are completely different from my albums. Don’t know what that is all about but I clearly prefer the version of my albums.

Check out the pressing issues on the record he received and in today’s offerings it’s an issue that happens all too often and really needs to be addressed by the record manufacturers.

@flasd: Uh, the quip about smoking LSD is what’s called a joke. The joke’s on me; I didn’t anticipate anyone not having heard it before, or of not getting it now (I am guilty of giving people too much credit). I first heard it out of the mouth of Robert Kennedy, who said it with a wink. flasd, get it now?

By the way: I first took LSD in 1967, last in 1968. How ’bout you? I would hazard a guess that I’ve forgotten more about that very dangerous drug than you will ever know. Not that that is something to be proud of.

Another point to be made is that in the comparison between an original pressing and a reissue, there may not be a clear winner: the original may better the reissue in some regards, the reissue the original in others. Another reason to characterize the statement that 180g reissues are hype as an over-simplification.

Many members of the Vinyl Community on YouTube have compared original pressings of Blue Note LP’s with the reissued versions (Tone Poet, and Blue classic Series), and prefer the original in some regards, the reissue in others. And in some cases, with a particular title the original pressing is preferred in all regards, with other titles the reissue is. Again, too over-simplify is to be foolish. Unless one has an agenda.

Another consideration is that an original pressing of a rare LP can cost one far, far more than a reissue. Some of the original Blue Note’s now sell for four figures. The Classic Series reissues sell for under $25. How much are you willing to pay for an original?

As I said above, I have LP’s dating back to the 1950’s. To say that mass-market LP’s from the 50’s through the 80’s were made with better quality control than those now made by the audiophile reissue companies is utterly ridiculous, completely untrue. Now not all reissues are done by audiophile-orientated companies; it takes knowledge to understand what reissues are worth buying.

By the way: the very rare 1994 pressing of Petty’s Wildflower LP was mastered from a digital file, the recent reissue from the analogue master tapes. Which version would you rather own?

I have one album I like so much I have it on three different LP pressings: Born Under A Bad Sign by Albert King (if you like Stevie Ray Vaughan, you NEED this album). An original on Stax Records, the first reissue on Sundazed, and the new reissue on Speakers Corner. If you prefer the original, you need a better hi-fi ;-) . Bad news for 180g LP haters, the Speakers Corner BUABS is just that. Oh well, better to not believe in hype than to enjoy better sound, right?

I also own King’s Elvis Presley tribute album (entitled King, Does The King’s Thing) in two incarnations: an original on Stax, and the reissue by Vinyl Me Please. If you think Stax manufactured their LP’s with the care VMP does, I don’t think there’s anything I can say to change your mind.

And then there is Pet Sounds. I have the album in the following pressings:

- Original "rainbow label" Capitol Records issue, in mono.

- Reissue included as the second disc in the Beach Boys’ 1972 album So Tough.

- EMI (UK) "100 Series" reissue in stereo (with rainbow label).

- Capitol Records "Limited Edition Stereo" (mixed by Brian Wilson) reissue.

- 180g (oh, the horror ;-) reissue on DCC, mastered by Steve Hoffman.

- Analogue Productions reissue in mono.

- Analogue Productions reissue in stereo.

Guess which version sounds the "best"? Hint: It’s a trick question. If you think it’s the original Capitol, you need a better hi-fi.

Which LP is manufactured with the highest level of quality control? If you think it’s the original Capitol, you and I have very different opinions as to what constitutes quality.

Claiming that "all" recordings made on vinyl of a particular thickness/weight is "hype" is ignorant at best.

I'm with you that there are a lot of crap recordings that are hyped because they are on 180g vinyl.  There's also a lot of crap on 150g vinyl.  And different colored vinyl.  And CDs.  And streaming.  

I finally opened up my MFSL of Nilsson Schmilsson and played it last night and holy smokes, was it good!  So dynamic and the soundstage and imaging made my speakers completely disappear.  Everything else I listened to after that was mediocre.  

MFSL has had some duds, no doubt, but their newer releases are often revelatory.  I never really thought of the Pretenders as being "audiophile" material, but what they did with it makes it quite a treat.  Pretty much everything I've listened to from Classic Records and Analogue Productions has been outstanding. 

Speaking of media, almost all of the records I've bought that were made with Quiex vinyl are also very good.

It's already been said (better than I can say it), but there is more to making a record than the media itself and there are some places that put more care and skill into the end result than others. 

Excellent post @big_greg!

I too have no use for or interest in colored vinyl LP's. Seems like something made for girls, or little kids The first ones I had were in the mid-50's---translucent red kiddie records, 10" iirc, or maybe the more common 7" (my memory has been affected by all the LSD I smoked ;-). Vinyl Me Please does a lot of their issues in color, for no good reason I am aware of. At least they have most of their LP's now made at QRP. Black may not be a color, but black is beautiful, baby!

@bdp24  I actually like some of the colored vinyl. It often doesn't sound as good as black, but it is kind of cool and fun to watch on the turntable. Some of the more limited versions like some of the RSD releases can go up in value pretty quickly too. Not for any good reason but I don't mind seeing something I purchased go up in value instead of down, LOL

I'll second or third the posts praising the quality of records coming from Analog Productions and other labels that are pressed at QRP as I have not been disappointed at all. I am in a number of cases partial to the SQ on some of my original pressings from the 60's and 70's but I have also many times found recent reissues or remasters to be equally enjoying. 

I recently replaced my original Byrds Columbia Mono copies of Tamborine Man and 5th Dimension that sounded great but had seen better days. I found near mint Sundazed  2013 reissues on Discogs at a reasonable price and am happy so say they sounded great and as it turns out they were pressed at QRP. 

I've also had good luck with Friday Music and Columbia Legacy.

@big_greg: The first Rock 'n' Roll colored vinyl album I saw and bought (in 1970!) was Dave Mason's great debut album, Alone Together (recorded by the legendary Al Schmitt.). Accompanying Dave are the all-star cast of Leon Russell, Chris Ethridge of The Flying Burrito Brothers,, Carl Radle of Derek & The Dominos, L.A. studio pianist Larry Knechtel, John Simon---here he is again!, Delaney & Bonnie, Rita Coolidge and Claudia Lennear, and the killer drummer-quartet of Jim Capaldi of Traffic, Johnny Barbata of The Turtles and soon-to-be Jefferson Starship, and Jims Gordon & Keltner. Wow! .

The Alone Together PVC is of the "marble swirl" variety (which looks like Silly Putty does after you have copied some comic strips ;-), which does look cool spinning. The sound quality is good, too. I have augmented a couple of albums I have on black vinyl with the one colored vinyl variant I love the look of, that being Coke bottle green: the new Los Lobos and Rodney Crowell albums. The B-side of the second disc in the Los Lobos album is blank, the space taken up with a cool-looking etching. Had to have it!

@tgilb: QRP presses LP's for some of the majors, too. They did The Band boxset that contains all their studio albums, for instance. Lots of companies got rid of their presses in the 90's, thinking LP's were gone and never coming back. Bet they now wish they hadn't!

Very cool story bdp24. I saw Dave Mason at a small local venue 3 or 4 years ago. He was very entertaining. I have a few etched records like you described. 

My problem with new the pressings are quality. Scratched, warped records straight out of the sleeve.
Here is the example. I opened it literally 5 minutes ago. It’s 180g 2016 reissues of Miles Davis on the corner. It has never been used, I got it from the local store, I know the owner, shop their a lot and he would not lie if he tells that it is new.

Another photo

And one more

@adrobitko: Yep, but that is what I and others have been talking about. Your post reads "My problem with new the pressings are quality" (you obviously meant to say ...with the new pressings....), implying all new pressings are of the same quality. They are NOT!

This Miles Davis reissue is NOT from an audiophile company, it’s from a major. The LP’s pressed at QRP, Pallas, Optimal, and RTI do NOT have defects like those of your pictured LP. Lots of companies are making 180g LP’s, but the weight of the disc is not what’s important. Just as not all 50lb/100w amplifiers are all of the same quality, neither are all 180g LP pressings

Sorry I probably should have said it differently. The quality of the new pressings are all over the place. You can find immaculate LP from a major and just pure junk from otherwise respectable audiophile company. 
I want to admit though, there is a bias here. When we see the old records sold on the market, junk records of bad quality will rarely appear there. They’ve been filtered out by time. So I honestly can’t tell if records were of better quality back then. But something tell me that the same rate of bad quality records was back then as well. 

My first record store job was in 1970-1, and let me tell ya, we had to return a LOT of defective new release LP’s that year, whole batches of them. LP pressing quality has ALWAYS been an issue. That’s one reason I and others started buying import LP’s in the late-60’s/early-70’s. British pressings ALWAYS sounded better than their U.S. equivalents. German ones too. Japanese LP’s were very well made, but sometimes suffered from odd equalization.

"Pure junk from otherwise respectable audiophile company"? For instance? I’ve never received a junk LP from Acoustic Sounds (Analogue Productions), Speakers Corner (made in Germany. I think junk is illegal in that country ;-), MoFi, or any other audiophile company. Yes, sound quality varies, but that is more a matter of the original recording than the pressing. Again, for new LP’s, look for those pressed at QRP, Pallas, Optimal, and RTI.

"...junk records of bad quality will rarely appear there." (the used market). You cannot be serious! I don’t know where you’re looking for and/or finding used LP’s, but LP condition grading is a major---no, THE major---element in the collectible LP market and business. Near Mint condition records comprise maybe 5% of all the LP’s listed on Discogs, VG+ another 15%. Below those grades, all bets are off. Most used LP’s are "junk":, but that’s because of user abuse, not pressing quality. When I peruse the bins at my local used LP shops, for every one record I find in condition good enough to consider buying, I see and reject about ten.

I need to dig it up. I have one record where the Coltrane sax on one track was severely distorted. And it is a definitely pressing issue, because I’ve got a different one and it sounded good.

I will clarify, junk records are on the market. But first, unless the seller is a scam, they will not put it as NM if it is junk. Second, amongst all those poor graded records there is no way to tell if it is poor because of the original quality or because it was abused over the years.

And this is where this bias is - people assume that older records were of a much better quality while we can't easily tell this based on the used market.

Where was the Coltrane LP pressed? Yes, there are bad new LP pressings, so consumers have to be discerning. You don’t buy a McDonalds hamburger expecting it to taste good, do you? ;-)

For a great Coltrane pressing look for the reissue of his Lush Life album that Craft Recordings did a while back. They did it as a 1-step pressing (if you’re unfamiliar with what that is, a search will explain it all), making only 1,000 copies and selling them direct-to-consumers for $100. It sold out in 20 minutes, and unfortunately now sells on the second-hand market for $500. :-(  Still, do you know what an original first pressing in Mint condition sells for?

I never really considered this question until I started to get back into vinyl a year or so ago. Couple points made were:

1) Back in the day when it was ALL analog there were good and bad records.

2) Many reissues come from a digital source! Yikes. Doesn't that defeat the whole analog thing?

3) Even today there are good and bad records so to speak. Crazy prices, and sometimes even reputation won't ensure that you will be happy. 

4) I am starting to think that taking the chance on a well cared for original may be the best bet in more cases than I first thought.

It will be a mixture of labels, price and hunting. I mean that you may have to buy multiple records of the same music to finally get the best for you. I think that I might be lowering my standards a bit.

@bdp24 Another: The original Tea For The Tillerman LPs were mastered with Dolby noise reduction engaged in the chain.

Better not tell this to Tom @ better records! He sells original tea for the tillerman at a pretty hefty price!

@adrobitko 

I don’t think any of those surface scuffs in the pictured lp’s will play or be audible. My bigger issue has been warps, and mostly with the new stuff, and especially when purchases through Amazon.

@flasd I agree, most of these new releases and or pressings are utter garbage.. like you, I have scoured thrift stores, ebay, discogs, etc for original pressings or releases and I’m glad I did. Most of what I walked away with sounds terrific. Yes, some duds, but mostly a positive experience. The new stuff, not so much...a lot left to be desired...as Tom Port would say; folks, that tubey magic is gone forever, and the new heavy vinyl will never achieve THAT Sound...

I hear that tubey magic on a regular basis when playing my old "junk".

Right you are @audioguy85. I was long mystified by Harry Pearson including the original UK Island pressing of Tea For The Tillerman (which I for years owned) in his Super Disc list, a recommendation parroted by Michael Fremer. I heard something seriously amiss with the sound of the LP, the cymbals and acoustic guitar completely missing their upper harmonics, the electric bass and kick drum strangely soft and "puffy" (missing upper frequencies greatly affect the perception of "attack").

Analogue Productions’ Chad Kassem (or perhaps his main mastering engineer, the great Bernie Grundman?) is responsible for discovering the reason for that, as I explained above. One more example of the reason for the quality of Kassem’s AP reissues. The superiority of the AP issue of TFTT over all other editions is dramatic. Available (for now; it is about to go out of print. If you want a copy, get it NOW!) in both 1-LP/33-1/3 RPM and 2-LP/45 RPM versions.

adrobitko, The LP in your photos looks to be covered with white specks of something, which could have happened as a result of static electric charge on the LP surface, created in the process of removing it from the sleeve.  (That's all it takes.)  One photo does make it appear that the surface is a bit scuffed, but probably not in a way that would affect SQ.  The real proof of the pudding is in the playing; does it sound noisy, skips, warps, etc?  Do those white specks come off with a careful brushing?  If so, probably static charge.

I have never had a bad experience with anything sold by Chad Kassem.  Mo-Fi are usually not grossly defective but they don't always meet or exceed the SQ of the original pressings. I do have a 4-5 LP set of Miles Davis with his iconic quintet that included Coltrane, originally available on Prestige (Workin', Steamin', etc), re-issued several years ago by Classic.  I also own the original Prestige pressings of some of those LPs, so I can compare the Prestige to the Classic versions.  One or two of the Classic re-issues have unpardonable defects in the pressing that cause gross distortions. Yet they all look perfect, would pass anyone's visual inspection. Had I discovered these problems earlier on, I would have returned the LPs, but alas I've owned the re-issue set for more than 10 years and only discovered the problem a few years ago. Ironically, OJC jazz re-issues were never "expensive" (e.g., much more than $20 each), never 180g, and almost always sound great. I don't think it's the weight of the vinyl so much as the care with which the re-issues were created that determines listener satisfaction.

Yeah @lewn, Classic Records---though starting out strong---ended up wimpering across the finish line, their last few years marred by bad pressings. Owner Michael Hobson blames that partially on the move to  200g discs. 200g? Why?!

Good news: Chad Kassem has announced Analogue Productions will be issuing the Prestige catalog on LP, starting I believe this year. Cool, the Prestige titles I have are great, but finding clean copies is not easy (or cheap!).

Get an audiodeske record cleaner. They all sound great after a cleaning in this machine. On the topic, yes I’ve had 180g duds…more that you should expect. I’ve also got used old vinyl that has been amazing. Either hit or miss. Analog Productions along with MOFI are excellent..

+1 Analog Productions

+1 MOFI

+1 Good Record Cleaner (especially ultrasonic!)

+1 Original Pressings (usually)

Keep buying vinyl while you can because in the future the distopian AI's will demand that..."You will own nothing and be Happy"

Although I don't have all ~5 of the Miles Davis Quintet LPs, I do own at least 3 of them on Prestige.  Not sure I would spend the bucks again for yet more re-issues of them.  Not all 5 of the Classic re-issue are terrible, just one or two in particular.

dinov, These are not problems that could be resolved by a RCM, unless your RCM doubles as a cutter lathe. We are talking about brand new LPs out of the box and about gross distortions cut into the vinyl itself.

There are some labels that are to be avoided at all cost.

There are some that are safe bets - many listed above. Buy from them, and you will likely not be disappointed.

if it’s a record I really love, I keep buying the same used recording over and over until I get one that sounds amazing. The others are  given away or sold.

There are no guarantees that any record will sound great, unless you buy from Better Records. 
 

But to say that 180g is all hype, is beyond inaccurate. Some labels, yeah, it’s bs marketing. Poor quality vinyl, poor pressing and poor sources. 
 

Analogue Productions, Speakers Corner, MoFi, Music Matters, Classic Records, the new Verve releases, Tone Poet etc, all sound amazing.

There is a tendency to romanticize records of old… In some cases, they are fantastic. But the bulk of them are no where near as good as “proper” reissues.

And yeah, they are not cheap. But then look at Better Records prices…

Certainly a warped record out of the packaging, especially with a “180g!!!” sticker on the shrink wrap is unacceptable (barring exposure to dramatic changes in humidity/temperature during travel which can be a thing) If there is a real world benefit to thick records, it would be that they are less susceptible to warping.  Not cool to get a warped 180g out of the package, in any case.

Some of my 50-year-old Dynaflex LPs that escaped without groove damage sound awesome.

No but - 1. Original master quality. (not stepped on many times) 2. Pressing quality. How many vinyl pressed before your copy from the metal master. 3. Quality of vinyl itself. Purity / noise floor, 180g, 200g?

Another way to find good sounding LP’s is too look for "white label promos", supposedly the first records off the press. Made first to send to radio, reviewers, record shops for in-store play (though most got taken taken home by the store’s buyer), etc., often in advance of release date.

I've bought quite a few white label promos and they are often quite good if they haven't been abused.  Getting harder to find, especially at a reasonable price.

@big_greg: When I think about all the white label promos I got as a product buyer at Tower! I still have a fair number of those, and two days ago found another at one of my LRS: Jackson Browne’s For Everyman ($25, Mint condition). A comparison between it and my stock copy should prove interesting.

ALL my newer 180gm DMM pressings of RUSH’s library collection smoke the sound quality of their vintage pressings so much so I got rid of them.

@bdp24 - I used to have that Dave Mason LP with the swirly colors back when I was in college, when it first came out. Excellent sounding recording, too - we used to use it to judge sound systems! 

You were a product buyer at Tower? I used to be a buyer in retail and wholesale in the record biz in the SF Bay Area from '74 - '84.... 

I did a LOT of acid when I was in college from '69 - '73 (smoking it just didn't work, though! 🤣); these days I mostly stick to cannabis!! 

@bdp24 

I'm envious of your find on For Everyman. My relatively early original pressing is NM- with the exception of a few pops at the end of side 2 but at a very inopportune place. 

I've been hoping Asylum or some other record company would get moving on a new reissue like they have on some of Jackson's other albums. 

Yeah @tgilb, Jackson's albums certainly warrant being again available on LP (I wish everyone would stop saying vinyl. LP's are NOT made of vinyl, but rather PVC---Poly Vinyl Chloride. Am I being too literal? ;-). His four albums released in 1993 through 2008 were never available on LP---CD only, another reason to have a CD player. Jackson is a fantastic songwriter, a good singer, and has excellent taste in musicians. Timeless music.

@larsman: Hey, did you cross paths with Norman Maslov (calls himself Mazzy) in San Francisco? He managed a SF store in one of the medium-sized record chains (not The Wherehouse, a different, smaller one), then went to work for ABC-Dunhill doing promotion until they were bought by MCA, who laid off the entire department (ah, the record biz ;-). In '79 MCA hired him back to again do instore displays for album releases, which he did for two years. He then quit and started his business as an artists rep---painters, photographers, illustrators, etc., which he now does from Seattle. He has a YouTube channel, where he has posted a lot of Vinyl Community videos, great stuff.