10 Audio Cable Myths and Facts

The initial post is full of opinion stated as fact.  I too, am an audio manufacturer and unequivocally stating that "this'  or "that" doesn't make any difference is to grossly misstate easily verifiable materials, frequency response, electrical characteristic or impulse changes.

Just sayin'.

I'm a bit confused. OK not that unusual in my case, but, reading the responses from the pro cables side I feel like they think that the OP is against cables. I felt that he/she/they were pro cables. I think the following paragraph from dragon1952 sums up almost exactly in layman's terms what the OP was trying to say. 

I've experimented with so many different systems and cables over the past 45 years and the most expensive cable I have ever bought was $640. The two sets of interconnects I currently have in my system cost me about $225 each. I've compared them to IC's that were up to $500 a pair and always chose to keep the ones I had, not because I couldn't tell a difference but because mine, the less expensive cable, sounded more to my tastes. Many of the cables I've tried DID sound pretty much the same. And I certainly don't think there are many more expensive cables out there that would outperform mine to a large enough degree to justify the expense.

What did I miss?

So what if he's a cable manufacturer?  There are plenty of those in here.  He has an opinion, and there are plenty of those in here too.  

I agree that if he's trying to sell something, he should pay for a listing like anyone else.  I also agree that he should disclose his profession.  It may even lend some credibility to his comments.  

But, saying that, I don't see that he was trying to sell anything other than his opinion.  And that's more than I could say about some of the other commentators in here who post reviews and comments with the specific intent of selling something that some would call snake oil.  You know who you are.

Personally, I find it sad that everyone attacks him.  Sure, you can disagree, but why do you have to attack him personally?  He's posted exactly 3 times, and everyone has formed an opinion of who and what he is based on that little information.  

What's more, it's truly abhorrent that MillerCarbon would quote him, and actively, maliciously misquote him in the process.  Honestly, MC, why do you act this way?  I didn't see where there was any "trashing the competition" in his post.  Feel free to disagree with him, but don't put words in his mouth and then blast him for what YOU said.  And, by the way, at the end of the day, it IS the shilling that people dislike.

Reading these forums once tempted me to try this or that. Slowly over time I realized the person that owned gear several levels above mine, cost wise anyway, is likely ‘still on the case’.

I came to the conclusion that stopping where I am is as good a place as any. In a facetious tone, I’m happy being dissatisfied here!

I hope you all are well and staying safe.

" Now, if you believe YOU can hear it, go buy a $100,000 cable. The seller is laughing all the way to the bank, but YOU are happy."

See, that's a major part of the problem right there. A large percentage that believe cables can and do sound or perform differently don't necessarily believe that the more expensive a cable is the better it has to sound. And they will agree that there is a large amount of snake oil out there. And they are not saying that ALL cables sound different. All they are saying is that they have experimented and found that certain cables have performed better in their systems.
A large number of people on the other side come out and say that's literally impossible. Many of them have only read a scholarly sounding article or two that made sense to them and justified their own reluctance to spend time and money experimenting for themselves. In other words a large percentage of them have never been curious or bold enough to say, 'hey I'm going to find out for myself and make my own conclusions'. And bias can work both ways. If some believe that a more expensive cable is going to blow them away then some will be biased enough to be blown away. But on the other hand if someone reads a scholarly sounding article that tells them that science and measurements have proven beyond a doubt that there really is no difference and that they are idiots to spend their time and hard earned money chasing something that isn't there, then either they won't experience differences, or they won't even experiment for themselves. They'll just blindly buy into it and jump on the bandwagon to point fingers and laugh. Herd mentality.

I've experimented with so many different systems and cables over the past 45 years and the most expensive cable I have ever bought was $640. The two sets of interconnects I currently have in my system cost me about $225 each. I've compared them to IC's that were up to $500 a pair and always chose to keep the ones I had, not because I couldn't tell a difference but because mine, the less expensive cable, sounded more to my tastes. Many of the cables I've tried DID sound pretty much the same. And I certainly don't think there are many more expensive cables out there that would outperform mine to a large enough degree to justify the expense. 
But the bottom line is that no matter how much science and measurements you spew  forth there is still too much that we haven't learned yet, especially when it comes to what the human brain can and does perceive.

The people who hear the difference the most are  those who listen to live ACOUSTIC  music on a regular basis .

I tried expensive audiophile speaker cables, they look great, but don't change the sound one bit.
Tried Synergestic black SR20 fuses, front and back, again no difference, expect that the fuse being a few mm longer than the normal fuse, it compresses the fuse holder and you need to fix this before putting back normal fuses.
Put lots in diffusers and bass traps, wow now we are talking.
My experience.
Jean

I auditioned several nice cables at various price points.  I bought Audience AU24 SX PC's and Balanced Interconnects.(Expensive, but not the most expensive I tried).  They sounded much better to me, my lady, and my friend.  Blind tests.  Big difference.  I am not lying.  Who cares about the science? I care about the sound. This is my Truth.  Have a Great Day!  Ken

Good article.

Perhaps you might have added a few words on capacitance, resistance and inductance and possible amplifier / loudspeaker interaction.

Perhaps they don't matter much, perhaps they do. I remember NAIM used to stipulate using their own branded speakers cables.

Was that just another early cable scam? If so, shame on NAIM.

In any case no cable designer or seller, of any kind (power, speaker, interconnects etc) has ever claimed superiority over OFC copper in anything remotely measurable.

They just don't, it's all kind of hinted at / implied.

As for shielding, it may or may not matter. I don't know.

In my current setup I haven't noticed any issues, but when I used to run a NAIM setup I'd get the odd CB/ police radio interference through my speakers.

No idea to this day as to why that would happen or whether it still happens on modern NAIM amplifiers.

So much of his so-called truths are pure BS

The primary issues are Inductance, Capacitance, AND Skin Effect,


As to direction: Wire cables are extruded, which means the outer layer gets rolled back onto the wire. How could any intelligent person not realize that has a negative affect on electron flow

but then his UN is a dead giveaway.

Cable stories are all bull.

Any decent cable made for audio will do and anyone who says they can "hear" the difference is lying.

Period.

Now, if you believe YOU can hear it, go buy a $100,000 cable.  The seller is laughing all the way to the bank, but YOU are happy.

Everyone wins!

Why this? An endless discussion about how or if audio cables of particular designs "work" or not. I was in the "wire is wire" camp for 30 years or so. I just used the largest gauge stock power cords that I could. How could a piece of wire a meter or so long change or improve my system? Interconnects and speaker cable were purchased used and plain Jane mid-grade stuff. I decided to "try" a better quality AC cable and I was blown away by the improvement it made. Did it matter that it was cryo treated and braided with noise filtering ends etc? Of course not. Did better power cables improve my enjoyment of the music? Absolutely and without question! So, for me buying better "snake oil" has made me much happier with how I hear (and feel) the music that my system presents. Why rehash this stuff? Try what you would like and let everyone decide for themselves what works for them and what does not. Finally, IMO, those who step outside the box and think differently push the boundaries of
how we experience recorded music in our homes. I feel blessed to have audio pioneers (cable guys) always trying to move us forward and allowing us to better enjoy the music we love and keep us listening and thinking.     

Rip van Winkles of the world, the world has passed you by. Wake up and smell the coffee!! ☕️

I love seeing someone in the industry with the balls to say that the emperor is wearing no clothes.  It is amazing to see how "educated" and "smart" folks spend huge dollars on $5K power cables, speaker cable elevators, and other mysterious snake oil solutions just because some company did a fantastic marketing job.  I do urge them to continue spending big bucks on these super high margin items because they help to keep all of our local audio stores in business.  

Thank you shieldedaudio for speaking the truth!

What the consensus on cable jacket color? I like white myself.

I think there are audible improvements to be had when upgrading from Radioshack interconnects to something like AudioQuest or better. I can't, however, see the justification for that $10,000 cable with lofty claims.

There are fundamental electromagnetic theories at play and there is absolutely a point of diminishing or no returns.

Whole books have been written on reasoning, cognitive bias, etc. You will never change the minds of the committed with facts. But you can change the mind of the uncommitted, which is where the value lies in still addressing the facts.

And here's something worse about audio. I think most audiophiles might agree that audiophiles in general have a higher IQ than normal. Well a study has shown that higher IQ people are better at coming up with more reasons to support their beliefs, even if they're wrong, so higher IQ people are even harder to convince otherwise.

So just like in political ideology, audio ideology is fighting for the uncommitted because it is useless to try to convince the bookends.

I know how I would feel if I spent several thousands on cables just to have someone say: "hey! You wasted your money and fell for snake oil sales tactics" But as a long time fan of Audioholics, I agree with the OP.

I heard a difference trying different power cords. Kept the ones that sounded great to my ears and returned, sold or discarded the others.

How about the claim that an oval- shaped cable sounds better than a round one (Analysis Plus)! Ditto for the claim about a rectangular shape (Transparent)! And people really believe this stuff!

This is what Herb Reichert wrote in Listener back in the days of yore: "Wire is like a condom. If it works, it is fine. If not ...".  All you wire maniacs should pay heed to this! 

God has spoken to me. Let me tell you what I heard. 

I agree with Shieledaudio 100 %. Thank you for verifying what I have noticed over the years.

Duly embraided!

Oh great, the cable naysayers have propagated from the other cable naysayers site ANA to agon, don’t let this site go to ruins too

I noticed that braided-wire speaker cables weren’t mentioned. Great!! That means they are truly the world’s best!! There is a real sonic difference then!! 

Whew!!! I’m validated!! The best $2300 I’ve spent on my system!

@tom6897 ....Great...I was going offer a brew for some popcorn, but now they're warm and I'll bet the popcorn is either cold or Gone.....*sheesh*

....another "infinity thread"....and I don't mean the speakers or the movies....

All strung out.....🙄

jdeickhoff "As a newbie to this arena, I utilize sites like this to learn from the elder, more experienced, more knowledgeable in the craft.  As an engineer I truly enjoy the science behind each and every detail and yet enjoy the discovery of sound when the ear is the sole compass.  But what I don’t understand is the cannibalistic nature of many members on sites like this. What is it about this topic or this hobby that creates such divisiveness instead of an accepted brotherhood?"

It's hard to have an "accepted brotherhhood" no matter what the arena when there are views that are totally opposite. It's like being for or against abortion. The one's 'against' literally call the ones 'for' murderers and worse. It's kind of the same with this subject. The one's that believe that science proves their side literally call the other side idiots, morons, fools and all kinds of other derisive terms. It's hard to respond in a brotherly manner. Besides, since you're a self-proclaimed newbie, maybe you don't know that this has been beat into the ground for the past 30 or 40 years already and most people are sick of it.

“When you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meager and unsatisfactory kind; it may be the beginning of knowledge, but you have scarely, in your thoughts advanced to the stage of science.”  Lord Kelvin
I read that article Bigkidz posted from the Audio Note website. However, no NUMBER are given other than for purity of copper. Resistance, capacitance, inductance, all of these can be expressed in numbers. If they provided numbers for these parameters and show that there are indeed differences from one type on interconnect to another, then I can at least accept they know something about this. In the absence of such numbers, as Lord Kelvin said their knowledge is very limited about the subject.

Dude jumped into the lions den is being eaten alive.

I will stick with what sound good in my system Transparent Audio. 

Dude jumped into the lions den is being eaten alive.

I will stick with what sound good in my system Transparent Audio. 

shieldedaudio: 

Interesting that most of your assertions are shared by Mark Waldrep.
https://www.realhd-audio.com/?tag=mark-waldrep
He has many audio credentials but selling cables ain't one of them.
However I'm set.

" Thus proving what was long suspected, that it's not the shilling that drives people crazy, but the knowing we really can hear these things. And you can't."

Exactly mc ...

shieldedaudio:

Disclaimer: We are an audio cable manufacturer, Shielded Audio.

We wanted to shill our cables by trashing the competition.

Couldn't understand at first why georgehifi hasn't been all over this whining about shilling. Because in this case it would literally be true. For once. 

But then reading the post, this guy can't hear. He has no clue. He is just repeating the same tired tripe..... as georgehifi. 

Thus proving what was long suspected, that it's not the shilling that drives people crazy, but the knowing we really can hear these things. And you can't.

shieldedaudio...

Dont waste your breath here.  The forum is full of superhumans who claim they can hear the air molecules collide in the air to create noise and maybe would rather listen to music in a room filled with carbon dioxide.  They even argue that fuses make a difference and furthermore, the orientation in which fuses are installed..  I tell you, they come from another planet, billions of light years away, where the laws of physics are different.

Save your breath....

Jdeickhoff-

Good question. It used to be the opposite, mostly happy people talking hobby, and a couple of outliers. 

I suspect some of it is because many feel wronged, neglected, or downtrodden, and this is an opportunity to set things straight, or exert control. Pain perpetuating pain, sadly.

The loser is the person that for one reason or another, depends on these boards for social interaction and a sense of community.

Somehow, the ‘only the strong survive’ mentally now applies to audio discussions, as I’ve read that sentiment several times here. That’s just a punk move and an excuse for poor communication skills. 

But, to answer your question, generally poor behavior only exists where it is tolerated.

Best-

For what it is worth, I found this the other day on the Audio Note website.  see the link and you can sort through this link for more info:

http://sw1xad.co.uk/technology_post/conductor-design-some-comments-on-the-issue-of-importance-of-cables/





CONDUCTOR DESIGN – SOME COMMENTS ON THE ISSUE OF IMPORTANCE OF WIRING

Why cables are so important?

Ideal cable is a zero impedance conductor. Ideally, it would present zero impedance to a music carrying signal. Any serious imperfection of a conductor can only contribute to an impedance mismatch, which is the main issue for the signal transmission. In order to avoid it, the cables must “adapt” themselves to the impedance requirements across the source and the signal receiver. Everything matters when it comes to quality and quantity, whether it is the material of a conductor or the reactance of a complete cable.

Our non-ideal world is full of limitations dictated by the laws of physics. Unfortunately, there are no ideal components in a non-ideal world.  Each conductive material has its own sonic character and is characterised by the residual presence of the three main electric properties such as resistance, inductance and capacitance. The combined interaction of these properties is called impedance. Since impedance depends on signal frequency, an impedance mismatch between the source (e.g. CD player) and the load (e.g. amplifier) act as signal frequency filter. All filters modulate signals and cause signal degradation.

In spite of all natural limitations, we should not accept a compromise on signal transmission. The main objective was to create a minimum compromise conductor, which maximises signal integrity and its transfer behavior while minimising the effects of as resistance, inductance and capacitance causing signal modulation or simply a loss of a signal integrity. In transmission line theory terms, we looked to design a conductor that would match the impedances (i.e. minimise the signal loss) between the signal source and the load more closely. After all, the main goal of a cable design is to maximise the signal transfer behavior i.e. minimise the impedance mismatch, overcoming the effects of resistance, inductance and capacitance.

Numerous experimentation with cable designs and investigation into the effect of conductor materials on the quality of reproduction of sound, led us to believe that the material quality of a conductor, its dielectric environment and construction are the most significant factors that affect the signal transmission. Some of the findings can be summarised as follows:

Importance of the conductor material

Every conductive material does have a distinct sound signature. Without going into the debate of personal preferences, we find that pure Silver conductors sound generally more revealing, dynamic and more musical. When pure silver was used as a conductor, everything seemed to sound more magical relative to the copper based materials. Is there any reasonable explanation?

Maybe it is the difference in conductive property across silver and copper material. Silver is a better conductor than copper. Each atom of silver has a higher electron capacity of 18 more electrons, resulting in 6-7% more conductivity relative to copper. While we cannot explain and find it difficult to believe how 6-7% better conductivity of silver over copper makes a significant difference, we also noticed that the larger the amount of silver in the conductor the better the low level musical resolution is.

Silver alloy materials should not be confused with a silver plated copper material, which not only sounds inferior and but also only uses less than 1% of Silver. Electro-plating is a low cost chemical process, where a very thin layer of silver is plated on the surface of copper. It is by miles sonically inferior to the process of physically melting high content Silver with copper.

Insulation around the conductors

What really makes a significant difference, we think is the dielectric or insulation material around conductors. A silver conductor of identical material quality can either shine or sound dull depending on the choice of the dielectric material. There many options here: polyurethane, PVA, cotton, silk, PTFT and many others. Some dielectrics are better with silver and some are worse. If a dialectic material sits to close on a conductive material and there are many conductors in parallel, the capacitance of a cable increases. That is a clearly an undesired effect, which we wanted to minimise. After numerous experiments with cable geometry we arrived at a choice of least compromise: Air -the best real world attainable dielectric. While it is not possible to have a 100% air dielectric we strived to maximise its presence by intentionally making a use of oversized PTFE tubing (up to 5x the conductor thickness). The results speak for themselves. We achieved less capacitance, less distortion, more clarity, resolution, air, and greater dynamics and last but not least the amount of energy unleashed.

On the matter of cable construction

While conductor and insulation materials are crucial to the performance of a signal transmission, the arrangement of these materials is a factor of no less importance. There is almost unlimited number of combinations of choosing the size and the quantity of conductors and ways of how to arrange them. All these choices are different forms of a compromise. Too thin conductors sound excellent in the treble frequency region but usually sound poor in the bass frequency region, while for the thicker conductors the issue is vice versa. On the one hand any conductor twisting is undesirable since it increases inductance and resistance. On the other, paralleling many conductors decreases resistance but paralleling too close and too many increases capacitance too. Using a screen surely has benefits of shielding against RFI and other parasitic radio frequencies but brings a drawback of increased capacitance and reduction of airiness in the sound.

THE SOUND OF COPPER VS SILVER CONDUCTORS

The Sound of Copper vs Silver conductors: an approach by SW1X Audio Design™

Disclaimer: Everything stated below is of generalizing nature. Furthermore, we are assuming that everything else is close to being equal i.e. the geometry and insulation of a conductor of both copper and silver conductors is identical and that the conductors themselves are of similar age.

It is widely acknowledged that different conductor materials tend to have a different sound character despite no apparent differences in how these materials measure in terms of their frequency response. Frequency response is a very crude parameter by its nature which cannot measure all audible, interactive and idiosyncratic non-linearities and other properties. So using it as a main decision making-factor for suitability in audio of a material in question can a bit spurious to say the least. Feel free to replicate following experiment at home. Connect round conductor wires made of 99.99% OFC copper and 99.99% fine silver of identical thickness to a spectrum analyzer and measure their frequency response, consecutively.

The result is, one will find no difference in frequency response between pure copper and pure silver everything else being equal. Surprised?

We think that pretty much disproves the myth that silver alloy conductors are “brighter” or are “thinner on bass” relative to copper because of frequency response differences. The technology or science might not be good at measuring many aspects of sound but frequency response curves of both identical geometry conductors are pretty similar if not identical. Nevertheless, ignoring conductor geometry and other factors for now, there exists a distinct difference of sound when both type of conductors are conducting signals of music.

The main sonic characteristics of pure copper vs pure silver conductors can be summarized as follows:

While copper tends to sound warmer and has more body it is a bit slower and less harmonically rich, silver does exactly the opposite. Silver tends to sound livelier, while offering more clarity and harmonic richness but at the cost of a colder character, thinner and lighter body. The differences in sound are clearly audible in the video clip below. The first sample is reproduced through an interconnect that is made of silver conductors and the second one that is made of copper.

 

 

Having crudely summarized the main sound characteristics of copper versus silver sound, one must acknowledge that we may be comparing “apples to pears” as there are many other factors that affect the sound signatures of both materials. Other factors may include : origin & age (new vs old), conductor geometry (round, flat, thickness, etc), insulation (dialectric material type, thickness, distance, etc), treatment & storage conditions (ambient temp, crygenics, annealing etc.), direction (wire drawing, manufacturing process), conductor purity – just to mention a few and many more.

It is difficult to imagine to live with a sound of either type of conductor if copper and silver sound exactly the opposite. It is really a matter of choice of other materials & components and customers preferences. Having said that, copper conductors tend to harmonise better with semiconductors, while silver tends to harmonise better with valves. For example, valves are warm sounding by nature (some are more and some are less depending on many other factors) and a silver conductor are naturally cold sounding conductor. If one combined them both, the sound is way maybe less warm than expected. If one combined valves with copper, the resulting sound may become overly warm and may appear less dynamic. On the other hand, if one combined silver with transistors, then silver tends to reveal deficiencies in linearity of transistors due to its semi-conductive grain structure, which is not ideal for long run listening sessions. Of course one can have a combination of silver and copper wiring as as with valves and transistors but silver and copper materials do not harmonise well together when wired in parallel. If one believes that one gets “the best of both worlds” of copper and silver sound one is mistaken as the resulting sound is characterized by dissonance of copper and silver “siblings rivalry”. There are ways around (as we harmonically combine copper & silver in our SW1X Special product versions and our SW1X AQUA line of cables) but that technique is of proprietary nature.

Now the cost factor- one ounce of 99.99% fine silver can easily cost about 10 times more than of copper. Consequently, cables made of fine silver conductors are not cheap and should theoretically cost 10 times more, ceteris paribus. Of course one can save on the amount of silver one employs in a cable but that comes at the cost of sound since the amount of silver employed is highly correlated with the presence or absence of mid bass. If one saves a bit here then the sounds becomes thin. So the direction of conductors made of fine silver becomes a crucial factor. Wire everything the wrong way and the sound will get even leaner and flatter in the mid bass, which is already a problem with most bare fine silver conductor now days. Does the higher cost justifies the performance of silver conductors? The answer to that question is better left to decide for each person individually as expectations and requirement differ on individual basis. What can nevertheless be said is it is difficult to think of properly designed high-end valve amplification without silver material which complements so well with valve type of sound.

Last but not least, on the account of silver plated copper as a cost effective solution- it is the worst that can happen to a sound of a conductor for the reasons stated above. Relatively thick copper core meets ultra thin (not much above 100 microns) & irregularly covered “silver crust” should ideally be avoided by all costs and means as the silver plating process introduces non-linearities & dissonances in all audible frequency spectrum particularly in high frequencies which are characterized by noisiness and lack of clarity, which tend to cause serious peaks particularly in thinner conductors, no matter how thick the plating is.

Cost factor aside, is not the sound we all after? If copper or silver on their own does and cannot offer the desired qualities, why should we live with the sound qualities of one or the other?

 

Slawa Roschkow, 03.01.2018

Happy Listening

Audiophiles are suckers for snake oil and like to believe that if they spend big money on tweaks there must be a difference. I have lived through several decades of so called outstanding and expensive tweaks and cables most worthless. An answer why members on this site are cannibalistic is that no-one likes to think they have been fooled. I admit I have been fooled a couple of times but no more. As an aside where's Miller Carbon on this post? I thought he would be front and centre supporting Synergistic Research cables.

+1 uncledemp 

As a newbie to this arena, I utilize sites like this to learn from the elder, more experienced, more knowledgeable in the craft.  As an engineer I truly enjoy the science behind each and every detail and yet enjoy the discovery of sound when the ear is the sole compass.  But what I don’t understand is the cannibalistic nature of many members on sites like this. What is it about this topic or this hobby that creates such divisiveness instead of an accepted brotherhood?

Interesting, why is it that I can hear a difference between cables if everything you claim is a myth? I’m not saying the difference is always better when climbing up in price, but there is a difference.

@marqmike 

You seem like an articulate, well mannered, open minded guy. These days I appreciate people like you more and more, as there are way too few. I hope you have children and teach them the same!

I do my best, but I could do better. 

Thanks again.

Well that escalated quickly...

The facts are the best part from the "truth". The myths are incorrect from my point of view. We just need a better understanding of the subtle effects of directivity, break in, cryogenic treatment, static interference and microphonics. 

Those “audio myths” have been around since the dawn of man. One gigantic logical fallacy. 

Oh good, more opinions claimed as facts. Sounds like fake news to me. My listening ears create my facts, or is it opinion? Doesn't matter, if I like what I hear, that's a fact.  shieldedaudio - Do you know kenjit?

shieldedaudio
Science can’t even explain how a freakin’ bicycle works yet. Since you’re so smart maybe you can.
" How Bicycles Work

Perhaps the most mind-boggling thing that scientists still don’t understand is just how bicycles work. If you thought that it was because of the gyroscopic motion of the wheels, that theory was disproven in the 1970s. Scientists really aren’t sure why bicycles are able to be so stable when ridden. Ever since the gyroscopic theory was disproven, scientists shifted their thinking to something called the caster effect. They thought that the stability of a bicycle came from the angle at which the front wheel made contact with the ground relative to the frame. However, that theory was proven false in 2011 by researchers at Cornell. The mechanics behind the machine of bicycles can be understood rather simply, whether it be gear ratios or friction. However, when it comes down to the actual mechanism that makes bikes stable, scientists aren’t really sure."

http://https//interestingengineering.com/simplest-things-scientists-cant-explain