Zerostat Milty really?

Courtesy of another thread, the proper use of the Milty anti-static gun. Also applies to the Zerostat.

https://cleanyourgrooves.com/252-2/

Milty was of no use to me.....they called it a DiscWasher AntiStatic gun then.  I'm not a fan of record cleaning machines as well.  I think they are way overpriced....yes it makes the records sound a bit better, but not worth the hastle.  I use a Hunt brush before playing records which seems to work....the stylus looks clean.

I had a lot of older records that were full of static. Invest in a wet record cleaning machine. That will effectively kill the static and keep your grooves squeaky clean. I bought the Record Doctor. It'll set you back about $200 but worth every penny. 

I need to discipline myself and just listen to music more. It sounds so good and makes me a better person.

One of the most fascinating findings reported by Shure in their 1978 white paper on static is that static attraction can spuriously increase VTF by as much as 3/8 of a gram (0.375 gm).  So, you may not "hear" the static, but that is a significant effect on VTF that will alter sonics and wear on both the stylus and LP.  I would not have believed their claim, were it not for the fact that they actually did the experiment.

@2channel8, It is good to know that you have lots of fun of improving the static issues on your system. The stereo system is about seeking musical paradise and everyone taking the different paths. There is none fit all and the best than others. This forum is a great place to brainstorming and for discussion from different perspectives. cheers

OK, I did a bit of an experiment this evening by rubbing a small piece of cellophane on my shirt, letting it cling to my hand and seeing how long several methods took to make the cellophane drop.
I immediately discovered I was wrong about the polarity of the Zerostat 3. Using only the release cycle, nothing happened. Using only the squeeze cycle it dropped immediately, so I was dead wrong about the polarity of the device. My face is appropriately red as I write this.
With one Thoriated rod very near the cellophane it did not drop after 2 minutes. With three near it it dropped in a little less than one. To test my body as a conductor I rubbed the cello and got it to cling again; then tried placing the opposite hand on a polished copper drain pipe. Nothing happened. Placing the tips of the fingers of the same hand that the cello was clinging to, it took about 3 min. to drop. I then sprayed my hand with Pfan-Stat and dried it before getting the cello to cling. It dropped about 30 sec. after I put my finger tips on the pipe. Draw your own conclusions. I've had 3 rods on my plinth for a few days and I see less dust being attracted when I lift a record off the table. I still use the Zerostat 3 and a carbon fiber brush when necessary.

My main issues with static have been with dust attraction and cling to felt mats. Rarely have I heard static affect the sound of my LP playing...I think. I don't use felt anymore, regardless of what the manufacturer sells the table with. But the excellent Shure article that @spincat linked us to makes me want to experiment with a conductive mat, even though the only way it would have of discharging is through the spindle. I'm not sure how that would work. I wouldn't use the copper mats I've seen because one of my tables works with a clamp (would copper damage the vinyl under pressure?) and the other is a Linn Basik that wouldn't be able to overcome the extra weight according to Linn. If anyone knows of any other conductive mat materials, I'd like to know. I may try spraying a mat with Pfan-Stat.

Finally, the Shure graphite guard. I have 2 V15 RSs and have used Shures with brush guards since the '80s, one RS with a new Jico MR stylus is on the Linn most of the time. I still have 2 older Shure original Styli for when I'm feeling nostalgic. The other one is for my Oracle Alexandria, but rarely gets used as I have several MCs. The reason I didn't think the brushes were effective at removing static is that no matter how fastidiously I clean an LP before playing, there is always dust on the brush fibers when the side is through. Dust that I don't think was on the LP when I closed the lid. Yes, I play with the lid down. I hate dust being attracted to my vinyl. The V15s are no worse with static than my other cartridges; but I can't say they are better either. I'll pay more attention the next time I use one.

Sorry for being so long winded! If you made it this far, I thank you for your patience.

Jim

The good grounding is the prerequisite for the new Audioquest (or similar) brushes to be effective. The typical human body resistance ranging from hundred ohms to hundred kilo ohms depends on conditions. It certainly not as good as a grounding wire. There are some similar products (brushes) using grounding wire. Since the brush is going to touch most of your records (used, new), it is better to make sure it is as spotless as possible.

@lewm, I am glad that you found this article interesting and helpful. I have read and benefited from it for years. Since people participating are from different backgrounds, I tried not to get into technical details, but focusing on audiophile/sonic perspectives.

The (1)  you mentioned is very true. Most of the people do not aware of this since struggling on spark and pull from the platter. Even does NOT produce a significant static charge, it does affect the sonic and the signal that cartridge pickup to a  degree since the cartridge is such a sensitive device. It does not need a lot of static charges for a cartridge to pick it up. I found the sound becomes edgy, fewer details and less definition, etc. Unfortunately, we are calibrating and setting up the vinyl playback by ear and according to this.

There are stages for anti-static treatment.  Stage one:  sparkless and no pull from the platter. Stage two:  neutralize/minimize the static build-up during playing and improving the sonic presentation. 

Spincat, Many thanks for finding and posting this wonderful article on static and vinyl.  It clears up most of the issues we have been discussing, and it does so with a valid scientific approach. It was published back in 1978, back in the day when audiophiles were treated as thinking beings, by such great companies as Shure and by great magazines like "Audio" and other more specialized publications. Notice the absence of words and phrases like "Quantum" and "Crystals".

First and foremost to me, I see where I was wrong about what comes out of the Zerostat/Milty.  Apparently the guns CAN make positive charge, but in the form of positive ions, not protons or positrons.  I think I once knew that but forgot it. I spotted several other useful factoids:
(1) Playing the LP per se does NOT produce a significant static charge on its surface due to the friction between stylus and groove OR due to its rotation in air.
(2) Static charge on the underside of the LP is not affected by efforts to discharge the playing surface but nor does it affect the playing surface until the LP is lifted off the platter, whereupon the charge on the underside re-distributes itself across both surfaces.
(3) This article effectively supports the idea behind the new Audioquest brush and many other older products like it, which grounds its carbon fiber bristles via the hand of the user (or via a ground cable).  And carbon fiber is also recommended for sweeping debris off an LP without adding charge.
(4) As to how the static charge gets there, where it goes, etc, everyone interested ought to read this article, slowly.
(5) The article also states that the "guns" release positive ions when the trigger is pulled and negative ions when the trigger is released.  If most static charge is negative in polarity on the surface of the LP (as this article also does say), then it would seem logical that you want to pull the trigger with the gun pointed at the surface, hold it, and then slowly pull the gun away from the LP surface before fully releasing the trigger.

Many other interesting tidbits here.  I am going to print it.

The SHURE published a research report about "charges on record" at 80's (http://www.shure.com/americas/support/find-an-answer/high-fidelity-phonograph-cartridge-technical-se...). It is a good read if you really want to get to the bottom of static issue. In the "Measurement of Electrostatic Charges on Phonograph Records" section, it concludes that the charges on record are always negative. The "Removing Charges from the Record" section elaborates the details of anti-static devices including zero-static gun type and ionizer/Destat type, etc. It concludes that those kind of devices generate both positive and negative ions.

The Detstat II/III is good for eliminating pre-exist static on record before spinning it.

ebm
Interesting. How did you come up with 28%  :-)

I have a Destat 2 which proved much more effective than my original Zerostat or my Milty 3.

Its only about 28%  effective try Furutech DE STAT 3 which is 100% remember you get what you pay for.

I think it would be incorrect to think of static electricity as either plus or minus, for that matter, because it depends upon where you stand.  My only point was that one outside surface has a relative paucity of electrons whereas the other surface has a net accumulation of electrons on its outer surface.  It's the difference between them that creates a static electric charge.  That's all I meant to say, really.  Also, I doubt that the Milty or the zerostat emit positive charges.  I would guess that they can suck up or expel electrons (negative charge).

I am not a physicist, either; but I do have some training. Static charges are not always + or always -. The polarity varies depending ob the material's position in the Triboelectric series: https://www.alphalabinc.com/triboelectric-series/
As we can see, vinyl/PVC is quite low in the table and acquires a negative charge when rubbed with metal, as do the majority of materials in the table. Diamonds don't appear in the table; but both diamonds and vinyl are not conductors, so any charge built up on the LP will not easily drain away. My experience with conductive brushes has not been all that good, so I eventually bought the Milty. I resisted for a long time, because I had a Zerostat gun back in the '80s, which worked pretty well but wore out and was not as expensive as the Milty, which I consider overpriced. From experience I've found that directing only the release stroke, which I believe is the one that emits positive charges, at the LP is more effective than both the squeeze and release. If a little Thorium emitting positive charges in the vicinity of my LPs (but NOT my cartridge) helps, and it seems to be, I am all for it. Especially because it is totally passive. I don't have to do anything after I place them on the plinth. I'll let you all know If I see any change in results.

PS. Pfan-Stat works by leaving a very thin conductive coating on the LP. I tend to avoid it; but it works pretty well when I use it. It makes those conductive brushes work much better.

There are a few conceptual errors contained in some of the above posts.  I am not a physicist, but based on my reading, static electricity as we experience it is not due to the accumulation of "positrons" (which is a legitimate subatomic particle for sure); it is due to a relative lack of or loss of electrons on the surface of a nonconductor.  This results in a positive charge with respect to any other surface that has its normal number of electrons. These relative opposites attract, until the charge is dissipated to ground. Likewise, the Zerostat does not squirt positrons or suck them up either, as the case may be. As far as I know, the static electric charge is dissipated nearly instantaneously when ground is contacted, regardless of the intensity of the field.  If the voltage is very high (can be millions of volts in one of those "Frankenstein" van de Graf generators), the spark is correspondingly more intense.

2channel8.  What is the rationale behind your hope that the thoriated rods will reduce or prevent static electric buildup?  Even the vendor does not make that claim; they are for TIG welding.  I ask this in ignorance; no disrespect intended.

I am surprised that no one here mentioned the latest Audioquest LP brush, which now has contacts built into its handle.  The idea is that gripping the brush as you wipe it across a spinning LP will allow a pathway to ground, via your body, thus draining away any electrical potential build-up. I have one, and truthfully, I cannot be sure it helps vs the old original Audioquest brush, but I use the new one anyway.

Most of all, don't walk up to the turntable over a wool carpet while wearing leather soled shoes.  Do touch something connected to earth ground, before touching the LP, in order to neutralize your own net charge as much as possible beforehand.

(1) Controlling humidity - This will help.
(2) A brush with a ground wire - Not all the brushes the same. You may need something like this to work well. (http://www.analogueseduction.net/anti-static-solutions-cleaning-cloths/furskfil.html)
(3) Ingest or inhale the Isotopes and become bald - It is a NO NO, too big a price to pay. :-)

I tend to agree with controlling humidity, or lack there of, and using a brush with a ground connected to it. I used to live in the Midwest where humidity was in abundance. But out In Arizona, well you gotta be careful not to get shocked out of your mind When touching ANYTHING metal.

I had a small device back in the mid 70's call a Static Master. It had a brush and metal grid with radio active Isotopes incased in ceramic beads. The brush and radioactivity  would suppress the static. I guess they felt this thing was to dangerous as the ceramic incasing was to prevent you from radiation poisoning if you accidentally  ingested or inhaled the Isotopes if they let loose from the grid!  Maybe that's why I'm bald now. lol.

@2channel8, it is good to know that the electrodes working well for you. The cartridge is such a sensitive device (measures from few milli-volts to sub-milli-volts). The static measures mostly from hundreds of volts. The typical thickness of record is from 1mm to 3mm. The impact is there. Most of the people do not hear the impact of static. They feel it because of the spark or pull from the platter. The impact on the cartridge is there even no spark or pull from the platter. It sounds degraded (edgy, fewer details, definition, extensions, etc). There is no turning back after heard how vinyl sounds without static. Just my experiences of dealing with static.

There are many reasons (recording, cartridge, arm, table setup) that some people do not hear the differences. This is also perfectly fine.

I doubt that static on the underside affects sound or tracking until you turn the LP over and play it. It's just that it compounds the problem when it is played. A fellow neurotic advised me to de-stat both sides and the mat before each play. I am not doing that! I'm not that bad yet; but it shows that we have a progressive disease.

The welding electrodes arrived yesterday and I played with them a bit. They definitely do something. They attract some things and repel others that are bound to a MoFi inner sleeve by static, but it takes quite a while to make them drop off. I don't think the rod over the LP while it's playing will work for me unless I let the record spin for 5 minutes before playing. I probably have a very static-filled environment, even though I humidify. However, leaving several rods on the mat for 15 minutes before a session seems to help. Normally after I play a side and lift the lid I immediately see dust being attracted to the LP. I saw almost none yesterday.

I'll keep experimenting and report any success.

@spincat, good point about static on the underside of the record. But does it affect sonics or tracking performance?

@skiroe and @lowrider57 may talk about a different issue. A functional Zerostat gun is capable of generating a certain amount positron, but not enough to zep the spark (a large amount of static). A large amount of static needs a very strong an-static device to neutralize it. I tried industrial anti-static blower and furutech destat II (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4HAbC_WDHU). Even those device, it takes a while to neutralize the static. Please aware that the static is existing on both sides of the record. If only treat top side, you will still feel or hear the static when pulling the record from the platter. It also depends on when you apply the zerostatic shot, (i.e. before or after the static generated). You will feel not working if the static generated after applied shot. The source that generating static needs to be located even not easy.

@skiro, I bought a NIB Zerostat on Ebay and it works, even lights up the test thingee.
Question... when you pull the trigger and release it slowly does it either make a clicking sound or feel like there is friction on the trigger?

If you do this procedure to your hand, can you feel any air blow out of the gun?

If so, the Zero is functional.

No luck with the Zero here as well.   Even bought a new one discounted a bit on ebay if I recall.   

Tried not to say this. But, I will be surprised if the electrode way works besides psychologically. I do not see how the positron got generated on the electrode. Even it does,  the gap between the electrode and record just way too big unless you have a tremendous amount of static on record. The same principle (gap too big) applies if grounding the electrode. I can be wrong.

I will. I am thinking I can bastardize an old dust bug to make it safer. The dust bug creates static and causes more problems than it solves, even though it has a ground wire. I think using the ground wire with the electrode would be counterproductive, as we want all the positrons to stay near the LP and not drain down the wire. 

My turntable is an Oracle Alexandria MK III, so it has suspension towers so I can use the same approach as in @helomech's post, also.

It is good that you monitoring stylus after applied Pfan-stat using a microscope. When looking into record cleaning machines on the market, some of them are talking about deep cleaning needed for the chemical residue for the new records coming out from the factory. I assume that you can see the chemical residue on stylus under the microscope. I am taking a different path. I avoid using record fluid when cleaning my record (using distilled water only) unless necessary. I am very careful about the cartridge cleaning and record cleaning fluids after re-tip my cartridge (and got comments from dealer) a few years back. 

The anti-static gun (Milty) is effective for neutralizing the pre-exist static on the record before playing. The Pfan-stat is good for avoiding the static build-up during record playing. Then, you are covered and will not need to use the electrode. https://midwesttungsten.com/2-thoriated-1-16-x-7-red-wt20-tungsten-electrodes-10-pack/ But, It is always fun to try different kinds of stuff.

Please be careful when installing the electrode so close when playing your collectible record with the costly cartridge. It will be great if you can share the result after using the electrode.

Each time I try a new method of cleaning my LPs I examine the stylus under a microscope after 2 sides and again after a few days. Pfan-stat passes the test and the Milty gun doesn't leave anything on the LP that is not sub-molecular.

I judge these things' effectiveness by sound and the obvious evidence elimination of static, such as visible attraction of dust and the hair on my arms. I also ground my TT chassis; which is a whole different thing than the ground wire in the phono cable. Those of you with hairless arms can take a small piece of Styrofoam packing material and place it near the underside of an LP. Hit it with the Milty gun and see if it drops off.

What are the differences before and after applied Milty or spray when saying works well? Is the sonic difference or sparkless? I never use Pfan-stat spray and do not know what it contains. Be wise about whatever put on the record since the cartridge will pick it up as well. We may not see the impact in a short term.

BTW, I just ordered those Thoriated welding electrodes suggested by @helomech . Only $13 shipped. Belt and suspenders.

https://midwesttungsten.com/2-thoriated-1-16-x-7-red-wt20-tungsten-electrodes-10-pack/

I've tested the Milty and it works best for me if I turn it away from the turntable while squeezing and only point it at the LP during release. I believe that only sends the positive charge in the direction of the LP surface. The next time your hair sticks up, give it a try.

Also, Pfan-stat spray works well.

But, as has been said, I don't believe static is what is pulling the OP's tonearm off its perch!

I tend to agree with whart on static issues. The static is easy to generate but very difficult to kill. After static got generated, they stay on both sides of the record. This is why you still feel the pull or hear the spark after neutralized the static on the top side of the record using anti-static gun. To handle the static issue, you need to get to the sources (can be more than one).  It is difficult to locate the source since like shooting in the dark. it won't be easy for sure. The static on record is generated only when rubbing and record spinning. It is difficult to measure even with right instrument. Fortunately, It is not as complicated as it sounds and can be done.  The "record rubbing and spinning" are the keys. I like to share my experiences of dealing with record static issues here even many people (whart, slaw, voiceofvinly, etc,) have more experiences. Keeping the record, cartridge, and mat as clean at all time. The anti-static sleeve is a cost-effective adds. The goal is to make sure less static on the record before it spins. The record clean process needs to have anti-static in-mind. Based on experiences, the massive amounts of static (like fromunda has) is likely generated by us. The record brush tends to introduce large amounts of static if not grounding well. It tends to brush the dust into the groove. For record cleaning, I prefer wet clean (ultrasonic, record cleaner) and air dry (for last 10% water). I still have few carbon fiber brushes, but not using them anymore. The dust on the record will not have an impact until it gets into the groove. The turntable may contribute the static as well especially the rubber belt drive. Based on experiences, the regular lubrication of bearing and other moving parts (rubbing and spinning) does help.  Grounding the spindle helps better for the metal platter. When record spinning, it brushes the air and accumulate the static over the time. The anti-static guns have a limited effect on this since they only apply before the record spin unless you keeping squeeze it when playing record. The static accumulates on record will affect the cartridge pickup even you do not feel or hear the spark. 

Bought in the mid '80's....it, and a carbon fibre brush work flawlessly...

I own a Nagaoka Kilavolt....does anyone recognize this device?

I’ve got the 3-inch wide version of that brush, which contains polonium, I think. It works.

Milty and Gruvglide work well for me. 

Buy an ion generator type air purifier and a humidifier. Problem solved! There are a number of anti static sprays, some of which are long lasting, some aren’t, if problem persists. I even have one, Sonic Tonic. Nordost has had for like forever.

Just checked, the brush is still being sold: https://www.adorama.com/cpsmb1.html?gclid=CjwKCAjwx7DeBRBJEiwA9MeX_KT_5IEuluuu8ICYDJqJGc_Wx_036IXUW4...

It is expensive and Polonium has a 6 month half life so you will need to buy refills. 

I am going to try weaving a copper wire down the center of my carbon brush and run a connection to an outlet. That might work?

I’ve had static on my records. I notice it when I lift the record off the matte and hear the static charge. Things I do to minimize it include wiping the matte lightly with distilled water. I also use a carbon brush from Bags Unlimited.

I do use a humidifier now that temps are dropping and the heat is on. I avoid paper sleeves and use MOFI inners.

The Zerostat did not work well for me either and I tried every procedure including holding it between my cheeks and walking slowly away from the TT while gently squeezing...

What worked really well (while I had it) was an anti-dust brush for negatives that I used in college (1970’s) when I was doing black&white negative developing in my kitchen. It may not be sold anymore because it had a small bit of radioactive material just above the bristles. I misplaced it and am still looking for it...

Simple test-do you grind your own coffee beans? If you do, you've experienced coffee bean grounds clinging to the catch-basin. Practice with your Milty Zerostat. If you don't see the clinging grounds drop off like dead flies, there is something wrong. 

Slaw, For what it's worth, my admonition to the OP that he should be sure he is using his Zerostat correctly should not be construed as a negative post.  Even if he did read the manufacturer's instructions, we all make errors in interpreting the written word, on the odd occasion.  So maybe he needs or needed to re-read them. Maybe not.

Furthermore, without much effort you can find at least 3 different ideas that circulate on the internet about what is the "correct" way to use these static guns, each slightly different from the other.  For example, contrary to what Lowrider wrote, I have been led to believe that the Zerostat (or Xerostat) should NOT click during the very slow pulling or releasing of the trigger, for best results.  I'm not even saying that Lowrider is incorrect; I am only pointing out the vagaries of static removal.

@slaw Sir (?), I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. So I'm guessing that makes two of us...

The Zerostat works if it's non defective and used correctly. It may take more than one zap. It seems that many have received defective units, so test it with some cellophane or similar static-sensitive material.

Good advice. I have a Discwasher Zerostat, not the Milty, and it works every time.
 The directions may not state this, but fire the Zerostat at 3 areas of the record slowly pulling the trigger in, then out. Your last time firing it only pull the trigger in, then move the gun away from the disc and release the trigger. My Zerostat clicks if it's being done correctly.
These instructions can be found in the archives.

It really does seem like you have a dry environment, as stated by others.

Haven't tried this yet, but it's cheaper than all the gizmos out there:
https://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=ekuv1gkqi54o905pfkl27j2p60&topic=25621.0

Best thing to do is use a humidifier with distilled water, and avoid pulling the LP from its sleeve until you're right next to the turntable.

 The Zerostat works if it's non defective and used correctly. It may take more than one zap. It seems that many have received defective units, so test it with some cellophane or similar static-sensitive material.

@slaw- My "Pull"? Surely you jest! :)
it's all good, man. (Saul Goodman, aka ’Better Call Saul’-- love that show).

@whart ,

I already tried these remedies with the OP. Hopefully, your (pull) will bring a more rationale to this discussion.

I would try to get to the source of the static. You (@fromunda) said you have hardwood floors. Are you wearing socks, long pants that chafe? I play records barefoot and it makes a big difference. Relative humidity is, as mentioned, an important factor.
I’ve had those Zerostat guns for decades, and while they do ’work’ to a degree, I’ve always tried to get to the source of the problem, rather than try to ameliorate it.
In terms of de-static devices, you can buy a bench top ionizer of the type used in chip/electronics building as a refurbished or used item for way less than the audiophile approved ones. I haven’t had to resort to that.
Also, how are your records sleeved? Pulling them in and out of a paper sleeve is likely to charge them. I resleeve in a good aftermarket inner and then don’t put the record back in the jacket, but instead in a ’pocket’ created by an aftermarket jacket sleeve-- less friction when I removed the sleeved record to play and return it after play. All these things help.

I actually took the OP’s word earlier, that he followed the manufacturer’s recommendations. Maybe those who’ve posted negatively should re-read the OP’s original post?
Just sayin’
@dweller,
Thanks for your contribution to things your are totally unaware of.

To add to what Lewm said above, you need to learn how to use the Uncle Milty correctly. It does work. You hold it a foot away from the record and squeeze the trigger as slowly as you can and then do the reverse (releasing as slowly as you can) while slowly pulling the gun further away from the record surface. Using the new Audioquest carbon fiber brush (cheap at $20!) and licking the fingers of both hands and then using the AQ brush while holding onto a grounded piece of gear with the other hand will also work. I do both with every record I play. And Lewm is also right about the most likely cause of your problem. Static will not draw a cartridge from it's rest. I have a TD124 and it does tend build up a lot of static and mine has a very thick aluminum super-platter over the OEM iron sub-platter. I have had records adhere to the platter mat due to static but never a cartridge drawn to the platter.