I look forward to talking to you melbguy1, I always have believed you are very knowlegegable of high-end audio, we need you here on audiogon!
Your most disappointing purchase or audition?
I've had a few.
bought a Naim Nait 3. Loved it in the store. Returned it within a week- way forward at home
Brought home some CJ preamp to audition perhaps 22 years ago. Noisy as anything and a turn off transient destroyed a tweeter (though years later i bought a CJ 17LS2 which I thought was the finest preamp I ever heard in my home)
Auditioned a VPI table (HW19) in a store- the store just could not get the belt to stay on. Bought a Rega instead. This was in perhaps 1990.
Fortunately, I never really experienced buyers remorse say 6 months or more after settling on a piece of gear.
Finally, there have been too many speakers that got stellar write ups which I just didn't care for.
bought a Naim Nait 3. Loved it in the store. Returned it within a week- way forward at home
Brought home some CJ preamp to audition perhaps 22 years ago. Noisy as anything and a turn off transient destroyed a tweeter (though years later i bought a CJ 17LS2 which I thought was the finest preamp I ever heard in my home)
Auditioned a VPI table (HW19) in a store- the store just could not get the belt to stay on. Bought a Rega instead. This was in perhaps 1990.
Fortunately, I never really experienced buyers remorse say 6 months or more after settling on a piece of gear.
Finally, there have been too many speakers that got stellar write ups which I just didn't care for.
253 responses Add your response
I'm going to stick the boot into Musical Fidelity as well. Gave up on them years ago. Starting with auditioning the X-Ray gear then more of their subsequent overpriced, overhyped designs with cheap components and big-cases designs. To me, the MF sound is: bright, thin, sterile, cheap...just outright lame with all kinds of music! I shake my head at all the review laudits they get, especially when they show internal photos of the sparse circuit boards with cheap op-amps and ICs in a gigantic, empty case. In every product category they're in, there are tons of more compelling, thoughtfully designed options from smaller companies, for less money. |
Nmmusicman, Thanks for reminding me about the Krell Kav 300i! I forgot all about it. I borrowed one for a week from a high end store in Pa. years ago when Stereophile was singing its praises. My feelings echo yours almost exactly. Thin, sterile, completely amusical. Unlike you though, I didn't find the bass noticeably better than the McIntosh that I was using at the time. A member here, (Dave b) has often spoken of a different Krell integrated, a 400xi or something like that, and still swears that it is the best amp he has heard. (I saw a recent post on another site) Apparently, on the strength of his positive feelings for that integrated, he is buying a new one that they are coming out with. I can only think that the one he has is an entirely different animal than the one I tried, because that was awful. |
Audition - Linkwitz Orion speakers (original design IIRC). After reading all the science behind them and several stellar reviews I was so excited for the opportunity to hear them. Very disappointing. Cannot recall exactly why because I forget by now, but do recall being both underwhelmed and irritated by their sound at the same time. Of course, since these were a kit, perhaps the builder messed up. |
I concur with Musical Fidelity. A friend lent me his MF amplifier for a few months while he took a trip outside the country. 1970s Japanese solid state from the likes of Kenwood, Pioneer, and Sansui runs circles around it. The owner knowing how to schmooze a few Stereophile writers obviously doesn't correlate to good sound. Acoustic Zen loudspeakers are horrendous. More than a disappointment, they're a disaster. Some of the worst sounding loudspeakers ever foisted on the high-end. I can't believe anyone could actually live with them. However, my biggest disappointment vote goes to Legacy loudspeakers. Nice cabinetry, midlevel drivers, some of the most disappointing sound from a guy who knew how to write great ad copy in the early 1990s by claiming superiority over named competitive products. I was all ready to buy a pair until I actually heard them. Totally opened my eyes about audio, as I learned to forget about drinking by the label, or reading the magazines. |
Wow! Joe (Trelja), I have no opinion about Acoustic Zen speakers, as I've never heard them. But I must say that I'm struck by how widely opinions can diverge among those whose perceptions I've come to respect and value. See the posts by Charles1dad, Schubert, and others in this thread. If I may ask, what didn't you like about them, and what kinds of speakers do you particularly like? I'm sincerely curious. Best regards, -- Al |
All these negatives about MF. How about the Nuvista amplifier, isn't Michael Fremer still using that amp after all these years? I'm not familiar with the brand but must say it is amazing that something so poor sounding is still around, mediocrity yes I get that but worse than some of those receivers from the 70's and early 80's, I had a few of those too. And speaking of mediocrity I hear you Trejla on the Legacy line which mirrors my experience. I've never heard a set-up with any of their speakers that made me want to even remotely consider them yet they do indeed have nice cabinets. Never heard the Whispers. I felt the Focus on one set-up might be considered worthy in the midrange. That was a long time ago and time marches on. My most recent experience at Axponia was that they are what they are and always have been to my ears, not bad but most of the music is hiding somewhere and all I see and hear is a speaker, yawn. |
Trelja, The only Acoustic Zen speaker I've heard is their Crescendo on 3 different occasions driven by the fine Triode CORP 845 PSET amplifiers. This combination was wonderful sounding each time and I was able to play my own familiar music. Honestly, no one brand or model of anything is capable of pleasing everyone, too many variables and circumstances. Name any speaker on this thread and a rave comment will inevitably be followed by a negative comment. The nature of the beast. I'm currently under audiogon moderator scrutiny now, so who knows when this reply will post. Charles, |
Now what did you do or say that would warrant scrutiny Charles? A case to your point Charles, the post above yours by Panhead concerning the MBL's. I too heard them at Axponia a few years back two different times during the day. First time was ok but nothing that really made me take notice. They made a few adjustments and when I came back to that room later in the day it was as if I was listening to a different speaker, they were just glorious, particularly on orchestral music. I've heard these speakers several times over the past 20 years or so with varying impressions. One thing for sure, they like and need plenty of space. Sometimes people make a judgement based on an anecdotal experience that may not be optimal. |
Tubegroover, Your comments are true, particular circumstances and conditions can have significant influence so I try to factor that in. Ironically I usually find myself in agreement with Trelja more often than not, well we'll just differ in this case. Regarding the moderator, someone didn't like my comments on a current thread concerning his Magico speakers so he reported me.Now my posts have to be approved. Charles, |
Charles1dad, belly aching and soliciting other members for sympathy with your laughable version of events is not going to change the fact you fragrantly breached Audiogon's TOS. And the fact the Admins acted so promptly proves this. For the benefit of other members, I re-posted your offending post below. My advice is suck it up mate and move on.
|
I saw the quoted post as a stated opinion, and as far as violating Audiogon standards is concerned, I have read, and been the object of posts which make that one look like a milk fed puppy. I don't think that Audiogon moderators looked upon it as being a very serious breach either, as his subsequent comments are being posted promptly. |
@Acman, am I missing something? You're saying it's ok for Charles1dad to post lies about his and others participation in that thread, then advise other members who participated in that thread (including the member who reported the offending post) to post a rebuttal in the original thread. And members will connect the dots how?.... Then you stand on your soap box and advise "ALL" participants to "be embarrassed". Yuh. @Roxy, glad to see you condone such comments. That sais a lot about your character. |
Melbguy1, Although Charles used a stern tone in the post that you cited, there was no crudeness, and I don't see what he said as an attack. He is usually very much a gentleman in my experience, so yes, in this case, I don't find fault with what he said. By way of comparison, here is a thread that was addressed to me recently. I wouldn't bother reporting it to the moderators, because a person that writes like this is not hurting me in any way, they are only exposing themselves. Still, I post it here as an example of a truly crude post. I have been harsh at times in the past, and because I see that posts that are needlessly unkind ruin the fun we are supposed to be having, I have tried to think before I write now. John 07-31-14: Avgoround Plain and simple..THOSE OPINIONS ARE ALL ROXY54's OWN ISSUES!!! Bottom line, PERIOD,..whatever people agree on or negotiate for is WHAT IT IS!! Nothing more! .. THATS IT! Hey look, I too used to work as a hifi salesman in 4 different ultra hiend audio salons as well as in 2 retail AV chain stores in both the hey days and at the collapse of AV retail, in mid 2000's! And, you know what?..IT MAKES ABSOLUTELY ZERO DIFFERENCE whether some nonbuying, internet searchin, used gear looki-leach walks into ur struggling Retail store, with no intention of letting you know that he ain't buyin! It's up to YOU as a salesperson to qualify the bastard, and find out if he will buy., and then SELL HIM SOMETHING!! And if you think he's wasting your time, you have two choices...you either let him look around and remain friendly to the guy, if he's no harm, OR U CAN BLOW HIM OUT OF UR SHOP N TELL HIM TO GO BUY SOMEWHERE ELSE!! That's your choice! Conversely, if I'm some joeshmoe walk in in off the street, minding my own business, or if I feel like conversing about AV gear and discussing opinions, I DONT NEED TO TELL U , A SALES PERSON, JACK SQUAT, IF I DONT FEEL LIKE! ..NOR AM I OBLIGATED TO HAVE TO BUY NOTHIN! ..and, if u don't like it, either leave me alone, or kick me out, and I'll gladly be on my way!!! - and I'll not lose a nights sleep over it...not my problem..I owe u NOTHIN! Just don't sit here and tell me that the problem is the customer who's not going to buy...CAUSE THE REAL PROBLEM IS CLEARLY YOU, ROXY54!!! Fix ur own problems n don't cry to us!..CAUSE me or any other tire kicker ain't the problem if we don't open our wallets for YOU! ..then again, if u can't deal with that, maybe u should quit or become a better salesperson???!.....what a total cop-out! See this way you don't need to look in the mirror and make healthy effective changes in YOUR life..and you can just go on unchanged, blaming non buyers, slow economy, and so forth fer all your problems! Been there ..done that. It's same kinda position people take all the time! -Blame Enron and Fannie Mae for all the money they lost ( they shouldn't have put all their eggs in one basket, PERIOD, lazily and greadily, without doing their homework, in the first place!) , or the economy for causing them to lose their jobs, and now they can't pay their bills (u spent ur wasted hours watching Seinfeld reruns, instead of planning a separate investment bankroll, and actively multiplied by learning to invest, u slacker!!..Yes, own that!) GET IT FIXED AND STOP BLAMING OTHERS FOR THE WORLD NOT BEING LIKE U FEEL IT SHOULD, SO U CONVENIENTLY DONT HAVE 2 CHANGE UR NEGATIVE OUTLOOK,THERE,MISSY HOTROXX!!!! ..u got bigger problems than time wasters to deal with in ur life. I assure u |
Almarg, "If I may ask, what didn't you like about them (Acoustic Zen loudspeakers), and what kinds of speakers do you particularly like? I'm sincerely curious." If there's one word that epitomizes the AZ speakers, it's "plastic". In absolute terms, I've nothing against polymer drivers. Aside from my Quad ESL57 which are polyester, one of my reference loudspeakers use polymer drivers. But I will say that the tube renaissance has proven to a lot of us that paper drivers could reside in a bona fide high-end loudspeaker. In fact, it's the naturalness they produce which addressed the fallacy of thinking just because a design/material/though process is newer, it must prove superior. Just that probably no speaker sounds more "plastic" than the Acoustic Zens. In every situation I've encountered them they've proven incapable of making music. Yes, they make sound, but that's an entirely different thing. To put a finer point on it, the speakers have a haziness and inability to get out of their own way to them that flies in the face of the high-end audio goals of removing veils or seeing through a clearer pane of glass. Now, I'm not a guy who chases resolution, but there's also the other extreme. While I'm at it, most attempts at producing transmission line loudspeakers over the past several decades, while often worthy of praise in terms of their effort and intent, have yielded worse than mediocre results. For whatever reason, the British designs, and I'll include Bud Fried in that school, are the only ones who've gotten it right. And, when you hear true TL (bass, but even moreso, midrange), it's truly something to behold. The notes simply fly out of the speakers with a sense of ease and life that no sealed or (especially) ported (and I do own some) speaker could dream of. Tubegroover, you hit the nail on the head when it comes to Legacy speakers, "yawn." What's astonishing is how a speaker advertised with such adjectives power, dynamics, and the like can sound as dull as dishwater. Don't feel bad about not hearing the Whisper, it's probably the worst sounding loudspeaker they've designed. The two huge woofers, at the top and bottom, come off with no cohesion to the rest of the music. What's best is when you hear them in their audio ping-pong. Legacy is the kind of product people used to equate with certain feelings of male inadequacy, and the need for something of awe to compensate for same. As I said, this is the brand that did more for my audio journey than any other. I then learned to stop caring so much about specifications, close my eyes, and open my ears, brain, and heart. And, for what it's worth, I'm not sure what all the fuss is about Charles1dad's post. Maybe it's me, but I don't see anything wrong with it. Disagreement is fundamental to the meaningful exchange of perspective. |
Trelja, I suppose 2 out of 3 isn't bad. 1. Agree with your take on the merits of paper cones(done properly).Natural is absolutely the right description. 2,My impression of Legacy is the same as yours and Tubegroover. 3. The Acoustic Zen Crescendo made music for certain when I heard it. Anyway I always appreciate your insight and contributions on this site. Charles, |
Trejla, I have never heard a pair of Acoustic Zen speakers, although I know that they are very polarizing with opinions of their performance swinging both ways. I went to Legacy headquarters once years ago when the Focus was in its 2nd version, having read glowing reviews, and was also very underwhelmed by the mediocre performance. I owned the same model of TDL Monitor transmission line speakers twice, and agree that they were special. Not perfect by any means, but great in the way the bass could breathe in a naturally, and pressurize a room without overwhelming it. |
I heard a pair of Legacy Focus SE a few years back when I was checking out various brands for speakers. I thought they sounded OK, until I stood up from the listening chair and the tweeters disappeared. Sat back down and there they were again. The tiny sweet spot knocked them out of consideration before I even started thinking much about any other qualities. I actually thought their Classic speaker was better, although not big enough for my room. Re: moderator scrutiny, I've been there for a year now. The comments that I tried to make were admittedly more abrasive than anything Charles said in that other thread (I think I tried to tell someone that he must have come home from third grade early one day and caught his mother having sex on the couch with the speaker for him to hate it so much). I'm frankly surprised that anyone would turn him in for anything he said there. And I would hope the reporting party also turned in the guy who basically said only tin-eared ignorant morons don't like one of the speakers being discussed, but I'm guessing this is a case of whose ox got gored, not a matter of increasing civility in discussions. There are people who don't like my speakers either. I may not agree with their characterizations of how they sound and may occasionally dispute those characterizations, but in the end I built my system to please ME, not someone on the internet I've never met - or for that matter even my best friends. People are far too quick to assume the victim mantle these days. |
That's just too funny P59teitel, I mean Mom on the couch with the speaker. You must be careful what you say when dealing with "serious" people, one never knows or can begin to realize the results. Problem with your case, if I were a moderator and the aggrieved party started complaining, you got a bit too personal, never talk about a son's mom, direct personal assult. In those cases ya gotta nip em at the bud, still funny though, at least to me. Charles, maybe by all the responses in your favor, I mean really what did you do but offer your opinion, the moderators might just lighten up a bit on opinions offered and focus their attention more on the most egregious crimes and misdemeanors. That guy in Roxy's example sounds like he has some deeper issues, sure wouldn't him to know where I lived. |
Well it seems my monitored restriction has been lifted today, thanks audiogon for this action. I sincerely appreciate the support of fellow audiogon members. As with all of my Posts on this site, I was just expressing a honest opinion. As Trelja said, disagreement is expected and often beneficial in open forum discussions. Charles, |
08-07-14: Charles1dad I ran into a similar problem on the High Fidelity cable thread a couple of months ago. I think the moderators should start looking at those who are complaining and not simply jump to conclusions. In my case a newer, less experienced member ran to the moderators, not because my comments were offensive, but because they were "off topic". I was being moderator for a week or so, until I asked the moderators what was up. When considering whether to monitor someone, perhaps the moderators should look more closely at the offended complainers history, and consider the source of the complaint, before just having a knee-jerk reaction. I'm glad that you 'punishment' has been lifted Charles. ;^) Cheers, John |
Charles, I'm very happy to see today's development, as referenced above. If I may say so without being presumptuous, IMO your posts are consistently among the most perceptive, knowledgeable, well balanced, and (unless circumstances warrant otherwise) gentlemanly posts to be found here. Joe (Trelja), thanks for the response. I did some searching to see if I could identify anything that might account for the amazing diversity of opinion about the Acoustic Zen speakers, perhaps such as impedance characteristics that might make their performance unusually amplifier dependent. But to no avail whatsoever, although I couldn't find a measured impedance curve. One of the things I looked at in the course of that research was the technical information page of the manufacturer's website. Unfortunately, what I found were the same three paragraphs repeated 15 times! Presumably the speakers were designed with greater attentiveness :-) Best regards, -- Al |
Wow, this little question I asked got way off track. So I'll list some more things that have been a disappointment, now that I have had more time to think about is. My first pair of B&W speakers, a total disaster. Years later I bought a pair of CDM-1's which were quite good. I eventually sold them, nearly for what I paid new. A pair of large Advents, around 1990. Kept them less that a week. A pair of Celestion speakers. Auditioned them. Yuk. |
I thought of 2 more that I really disliked. I borrowed for an audition in my system a Plinius integrated when they first came out. (9200?) Terrible. Solid state at its worst, and I am not opposed to solid state at all. Also, a stand mounted speaker by Hales. I can't remember the name or model number, but it had a distinctive grill with a protruding diagonal piece of heavy gauge coat hanger type wire behind the cloth grill. They were very unbalanced, unnatural sounding and fatiguing. I wasn't surprised when the company went under after that experience. |
