Your most disappointing purchase or audition?

Thank you for providing the link, Al!

It's quite strange in exactly what you said being true, the same point is made over and over again. I find it doesn't lend tremendous insight into the design of the AZ loudspeakers. At any rate, forgive me for reading between the lines, as it's all I have to continue the conversation with...

It seems the focus is on materials. Robert Lee, who we've hosted in our audio society, and was the consummate gentleman, may have a background, as do I, as a material scientist/engineer.

However, I can say that my career in that realm provided me with little in the way of what makes a speaker good or bad. Interestingly enough, that happened during a time when there were a lot more audiophiles, and I was just one among a larger crowd in a company of just 65 people. I would likewise say that none of our diverse (ceramics, metals, polymers, organic/inorganic chemistry, physicists, etc.) backgrounds in the field endowed us with loudspeaker knowledge. As an aside, we did make the raw materials for products used in the high-end audio industry such as Vishay and Caddock resistors, though I can assure you high-end audio was not the aim of those companies, or ours for that matter.

Getting to have Bud Fried as a mentor taught me that it's the crossover that plays more a role in how a speaker sounds than anything else, and has a huge impact in the sort of impedance curves you're especially fond of. Most have forgotten Bud, but it was the series crossover, and not transmission line bass loading that he considered the most important component of his outstanding loudspeakers.

Today, companies put a lot more emphasis in cabinetry, and finishing of such. That seems to separate the more serious products today, as investing a lot in tomblike dead cabinets, book matched veneers, and multi-step finishes allow companies to charge tens and hundreds of thousands of dollars for a products pre Y2K went for $2-$10K. After cabinetry, driver technology garners the focus, though it doesn't take much creativity, skill, or intelligence to pick from the upper echelon Scan Speak or Seas product lines. I'll return to Bill Legall of Millersound, who doesn't give a hoot about the cost or reputation of a driver, but when you put it in his hands of 50+ years of experience, and just by playing with for a minute or two, he can tell you if it's going to sound good or not. Funny thing is, he'll often pick up a 1972 paper cone Pioneer driver, and show you why it works better than the latest and greatest from Dynaudio.

No, in my opinion, it's that area no one sees or really thinks about, apart from perhaps upping the parts quality, the crossover that separates the wheat from the chaff. We live in an age where we just assume that an outfit that put as much care and effort into putting those expensive drivers into a furniture grade box will also get the crossover right. Except, as it's no longer plunge routers and 1000 grit sandpaper, but mathematics that come into play here. And, I hope no one's under the illusion that our society has the same level of math chops we used to possess.

A good friend of mine builds loudspeakers. Mind you, he came from an engineering background, so the ins and outs of crossovers should not present something that scares him away from mastering. I listened to them over and over again, and always came across the same oddity in them. Finally, one day, he showed me the values, and I immediately told him one of them is off by a factor of 10; a classic case of the decimal point getting moved one place. It was pretty clearly cut and obvious, though his reaction was one of sticking his head in the sand. I told him we could quickly confirm everything by working the numbers out in Excel, but he wanted to run the other way. When I asked him about how he came up with the numbers, his answer was that a mutual friend of ours gave them to him, and he didn't feel comfortable even thinking about a change. OK, but there's the mystery of the sonics unraveled. In fact, it was no longer a mystery at all.

The upshot of this being I no longer have much faith in loudspeaker manufacturers having any idea of what they're doing in regard to what I consider the most important factor in how a loudspeaker sounds. AZ seems to produce good cabling, and using that in their loudspeakers might draw interest for very legitimate reasons. But in the end, if a company doesn't do well in the mathematical formula of the crossover, those expensive drivers and boutique crossover parts in the beautiful can only take one so far.

Finally, I must apologize for lack of clarity. A few people have written to me in regard to my use of the word "plastic" to describe the AZ sound. As folks like Charles have mentioned, there's a certain naturalness to paper drivers that result in that musical sound so many of us love. Plastic is the opposite of that. Instead of naturalness, the sound is something that comes off as odd or off. Guitar folk like to talk about tone, and for many, that's the be all and end all. In short, it's the tone that so very wrong, and that's what I mean by the description, plastic. Hope that helps...

I concur with Musical Fidelity. A friend lent me his MF amplifier for a few months while he took a trip outside the country. 1970s Japanese solid state from the likes of Kenwood, Pioneer, and Sansui runs circles around it. The owner knowing how to schmooze a few Stereophile writers obviously doesn't correlate to good sound.

Acoustic Zen loudspeakers are horrendous. More than a disappointment, they're a disaster. Some of the worst sounding loudspeakers ever foisted on the high-end. I can't believe anyone could actually live with them.

However, my biggest disappointment vote goes to Legacy loudspeakers. Nice cabinetry, midlevel drivers, some of the most disappointing sound from a guy who knew how to write great ad copy in the early 1990s by claiming superiority over named competitive products. I was all ready to buy a pair until I actually heard them. Totally opened my eyes about audio, as I learned to forget about drinking by the label, or reading the magazines.

Almarg, "If I may ask, what didn't you like about them (Acoustic Zen loudspeakers), and what kinds of speakers do you particularly like? I'm sincerely curious."

If there's one word that epitomizes the AZ speakers, it's "plastic".

In absolute terms, I've nothing against polymer drivers. Aside from my Quad ESL57 which are polyester, one of my reference loudspeakers use polymer drivers. But I will say that the tube renaissance has proven to a lot of us that paper drivers could reside in a bona fide high-end loudspeaker. In fact, it's the naturalness they produce which addressed the fallacy of thinking just because a design/material/though process is newer, it must prove superior. Just that probably no speaker sounds more "plastic" than the Acoustic Zens. In every situation I've encountered them they've proven incapable of making music. Yes, they make sound, but that's an entirely different thing.

To put a finer point on it, the speakers have a haziness and inability to get out of their own way to them that flies in the face of the high-end audio goals of removing veils or seeing through a clearer pane of glass. Now, I'm not a guy who chases resolution, but there's also the other extreme.

While I'm at it, most attempts at producing transmission line loudspeakers over the past several decades, while often worthy of praise in terms of their effort and intent, have yielded worse than mediocre results. For whatever reason, the British designs, and I'll include Bud Fried in that school, are the only ones who've gotten it right. And, when you hear true TL (bass, but even moreso, midrange), it's truly something to behold. The notes simply fly out of the speakers with a sense of ease and life that no sealed or (especially) ported (and I do own some) speaker could dream of.

Tubegroover, you hit the nail on the head when it comes to Legacy speakers, "yawn." What's astonishing is how a speaker advertised with such adjectives power, dynamics, and the like can sound as dull as dishwater. Don't feel bad about not hearing the Whisper, it's probably the worst sounding loudspeaker they've designed. The two huge woofers, at the top and bottom, come off with no cohesion to the rest of the music. What's best is when you hear them in their audio ping-pong. Legacy is the kind of product people used to equate with certain feelings of male inadequacy, and the need for something of awe to compensate for same. As I said, this is the brand that did more for my audio journey than any other. I then learned to stop caring so much about specifications, close my eyes, and open my ears, brain, and heart.

And, for what it's worth, I'm not sure what all the fuss is about Charles1dad's post. Maybe it's me, but I don't see anything wrong with it. Disagreement is fundamental to the meaningful exchange of perspective.

Of course, no product is going to suit everyone when it comes to sound and/or system compatibility, so I make no claims that way. However, one thing that I do feel is true is the reliability and support that Atma Sphere provides in their product.

Two things to potentially consider in regard to the issue at hand:
1) Atma Sphere used to offer their amps in kit form. Obviously, once someone undertakes their own build, all bets are off. At that point, the final result reflects the builder as much or more than the actual product or company providing said product.

However, as that time was both very long ago and very recent, I would guess this pair of amps didn't come via the kit route

2) A lot of people over the years have modified their Atma Sphere amplifiers. Again, using the kit rationale, at that point, what comes out of that now more aligns with the person performing the upgrade, as opposed to what they started with, or the company who manufactured the product.

I'm not saying one of these two scenarios explains what happened, but they are two possible explanations to add into the mix.

As I've previously said, Ralph has established a tremendous amount of credibility and good will over the years.

So, I believe in the STRONGEST possible terms that the almost 40 years he has run Atma Sphere needs to account for a lot of trust and good will going back to him as well. In other words, it's never a question as to whether he gets the benefit of the doubt.

In no way does it imply the product or Ralph will not be without flaw, or that no problems have ever gone out the door. The only people who don't make mistakes are the people who don't do any thing. Just that it seems logical, reasonable, and clear such a series of events would leave some sort of easily produced paper trail to jog the memory of the other party.

For what it's worth, I mean no ill feelings toward Tubes108...

I understand your sentiment, Mapman, but it's the right of a person and/or company to defend themselves.

Knowing how people react to their sacred cows getting kicked, the subject matter of this thread is inherently contentious. I know how this will come across, but here goes... If you can't stomach it, instead of trying to serve as a moderator, you might want to grit your teeth and move on to another discussion. As for me, I feel this site was a lot more interesting and informative back when we used to engage in real (sometimes hot) discourse, which is why I'll defend Charles to the hilt. Though I don't feel he said anything particularly confrontational, I rail against attempts of censorship or bullying.

Certain brands like B&W, Krell, and Wilson can get bashed all day long, and people view such as "keeping it real." On the other side, one thing I've surely learned here over the years is that any negative against other brands will be seen as attack on the owner themselves. Believe me, while I don't mind getting my hands dirty, I have a few on my list of deeply disappointing purchases / auditions that I've not submitted here because I know the blowback that would come, and it might go more towards hurting people's feelings and damaging relationships.

So, in-line with the topic, Tubes108 had every right to list Atma Sphere. Given the post went beyond sonics to call into question the validity of a build and competency of his entity, Ralph has the right to defend himself against what he believes represent untrue statements. To squelch things in the interest of maintaining a certain level of decorum would cause potential damage to Ralph and Atma Sphere. Certainly someone considering a purchase might encounter this thread during their research and contemplation, and because Ralph decided to "just ignore it" or take it offline, decide to move on. I'm not sure how people view Atma Sphere or this industry in general, but these are not fat cats. A sale is hard fought, highly valued, critical to the survival of the company, and difficult to come by.

While I have always respected your opinions and normally agree with you, in this instance, I say, NO, let things play out. So far, we've not crossed a line.

By the way, in no way do I portray myself as an arbiter or moderator, either. I defer to the Audiogon staff, and thus far, like the best officials in a tight football game, they've (in my view, wisely) let the players play.