I've owned a lot of speakers over the years but I have never experienced anything like the midrange reproduction from my horns. With a frequency response of 300 Hz. up to 14 Khz. from a single distortionless driver, it seems like a no-brainer that everyone would want this performance. Why don't you use horns?
Vernneal - All of those points you mention could effect one's decision about whether or not he wants (or can have) horns. But you left out relativity. How big of a speaker is too big or how costly is too expensive, will be different for everyone. Here are some facts about my system, which works well in my space. Individual readers can then compare my circumstances against theirs and determine via real facts whether or not horns could work for them. Bear in mind that smaller and cheaper horn options are available. Mine are just one example that I know well.
In order:
Size: Woofer boxes have a footprint of 24 inches wide by 21 inches deep. Horns are mounted on top of woofers for a total height of 51 inches.
Ugly: Completely and utterly arbitrary - varies with appearance and taste.
Room size: My room is 15 feet wide (system wall) by 22 feet long. The ceiling slopes from 10 feet at the left wall to 8 feet on the right wall. Listening distance is about 12 feet from from drivers.
Costly: I bi-amp. My horns, compression drivers, woofers, cabinets, power amps and DBX drive Rack PA all taken together cost me less than $5000. That is chump change to many audiophiles and a ridiculous amount of money to others.
I live in a 1400 sq. ft. ranch house with an advantageous floor plan. My system doubles as a 2 channel home theater with a 50 inch plasma hanging on the wall behind my components.
I added the last few facts just to add emphasis to the affordability of the horn option.
I have heard of ALE. Though $76k for a pair of drivers is a bit over my budget. And those aren't as high bandwidth. The Faital drivers (got my second one today) sound great down to about 350hz with a 48dB XO filter. I don't think there are any CHDs on the market that go this low with as flat a response. Sounds fantastic. Though it's showing me how much of a bad link my 18" drivers are.
I'm debating about building an open baffle bass set up, but putting the open baffle in the corners of the room... that effectively turns the entire room into a bass horn. Might be interesting to try at some point.
Compression drivers for $76,000 per pair leaves me wondering what could possibly justify such a price. If my drivers were blocks of pure gold they might not be worth that much money.
I wrote the above entry yesterday with an eye toward hyperbole. Then this morning I wondered about the numbers and did this calculation.
My drivers weigh 7.3 lbs each or 116.8 ounces. Gold bullion is selling today for $1324.66 per ounce. So that works out to $154,720.29 per driver.
That is actually 4 times the price of the ALE drivers,so I exaggerated much more than I actually thought. Nonetheless, I'm still left wondering what could possibly make those drivers so costly. Does anyone know?
Limited production using finest materials since only selling a few costs are reflected in retail also yen is stronger than dollar last I looked. Now are GOTO or ALE worth the outlay I say yes but not in all cases I feel fostex t500amk2 to be better sounding tweeters than either ALE or GOTO. If looking for compression bass then these and maybe cogent are your only options. And yes I have used drivers from both.
I placed my AN15s back in my system and paired them with the Faital driver. The 18s DEFINITELY can't handle above 100hz. They're awesome subs for certain, but midbass is not their forte. The AN15s totally trounce them in terms of naturalness and speed of the midbass. Much less edgy and far more effortless and uncompressed. I'll potentially build a set of amps for the subs and use them for below 100hZ. Or maybe I'll just sell them because I'm fairly happy with the AN15s until the Alnico version comes out. The 18s are monsters though, really great subs, just don't know if I need them at the moment.
The FP driver is stellar though. I ran some tests on fuzzmeasure and it's EXTREMELY low distortion across its frequency band down to about 400hz. It's about -70dB compared to the last compression driver (a B&C driver) I tested, which was up at -50dB harmonic distortion. The neat thing is the FP driver's 2nd and third harmonic distortion graphs are identically low. Proof is in the listening -- sounds fantastic.
I had a visit last week from David Wall of Snob Productions. He installed and calibrated my XTA DP-224 Speaker Management System for me. This effort replaced my DBX Drive Rack PA.
With a tool like the XTA in the hands of a skilled sound engineer like David, every parameter can be adjusted and all guesswork eliminated.
I don't think it is possible to get to this place with pre-packaged speaker systems. One amp per driver and universal adjustment capability has proved to be the answer for me. Turns out my horns are even better than I previously thought.
The cabinet is a rear loaded horn I believe. It is used to extend the low end output of the DDD driver I believe.
A Walsh driver, including the ddd, transmits sound through wave bending for higher frequencies and operates pistonically for low frequencies, which is where the horn is applied much like it would be in any rear horn loaded design I believe.
"I believe" indicates that you are guessing. I don't know enough about the intricacies of speaker design to evaluate your speculation. Maybe someone else can explain how it works. Anybody?
Mapman - My curiosity got the best of me so I checked out the GP website. The Unicorn does look fascinating. The efficiency is strangely low for a horn system and the power handling modest but I'm sure anything from that company has merit. Alas, I can't afford them.
My understanding is the Unicorn is GPs attempt to make a full range speaker using only their DDD Walsh driver. They accomplish it via horn loading the driver to provide the low end that would otherwise not be there in lieu of a separate driver.
I've never seen a Walsh driver that could be considered efficient and there is no horn loading of most of its frequency range possible (due to its omni nature) to help make it so . I suspect that accounts for low efficiency of these compared to many horns.
Macrojack, The bass is horn-loaded. The upper frequencies are omnidirectional because of the driver construction. It is "low" efficiency. I find the GP Unikorns can sound sublime in the right room.
For more fun, take a look at the Duevel Bella Luna. It is a very interesting implementation. The top of the line is the Duevel Sirius, which both goes lower and is more efficient. But it ain't cheap.
T-bone - I don't look anymore. I don't want to be tempted. My horns are good enough. State of the art is way too expensive to contemplate. They've finally moved the carrot so far ahead that I can no longer see it.
Anything appreciably better than what I have retails for a year's worth of my Social Security.
Diffraction effects. That's why. Now I haven't heard Avantdgarde Audio Classico speakers ($80,000) but that sounds promising. I assume you horn guys are Avantgarde owners...
Listener614 - You needn't assume anything about us. You can read the thread and find out the facts as to what kind of horns we use. It's all right there in black and yellow. Nothing could be planar.
Be careful, though, you might subject yourself to retraction effect.
Those are very nice looking horns and seemingly not overly large either. Not cheap but not as expensive as some I have seen.
I wonder how they sound?
Too much for my budget currently though.
BTW I am dabbling with setting up a third mostly A/V system in my house. I have an old NAD 7020 receiver that I keep as a spare available to use and may consider the Klipsch horn route that I have been dabbling with here in that I have some room for decent but not overly large floorstanders that will be placed not too far from the rear wall in this case. I may start out by using my existing souped up OHM Ls here to start, but floorstanders would really fit in visually here better.
Mapman - Those horns, with their enormous dynamics and high efficiency, are the best you will find for home theater purposes. I would say that you, more than anyone else who has responded to this thread, are a great candidate for this product. Bill's AH 300 is one of the few options out there that can equal the Walsh mid range. Manger and QUAD are the others. None of them have the power of horns, however, and no other horn I've heard has the transparency of the AH 300.
My analog system is as follows: Allnic 300b SET 12.5w amp Allnic L-1500 line stage Allnic H1500 phono Restored Garrad 401w/SME 312S and Koetsu Urishi Gold MC RL Acoustic Lamhorn 1.8 speakers with AER MK II FRD's
I love the 300b and the super efficient 104dB horns. The Lamhorns are a 1.8 meter folded horn design hence the name. They really fill the room with extremely spacious detailed sound. The bass is tight and uncolored to my ears. I do think my horns are best suited to low power tubes, their max power is 100 w. I have a digital system in my HT that has Classe CAM-400's and Martin Logan Summitt X Both systems are detailed. I prefer the horns for most music
My music preferences are female vocals, acoustic, jazz, and blues with some classic rock thrown in. Not a lot of really deep bass so horns might not be great on a fugue but for my taste they work beautifully.
There is an in depth review of the Lamhorn's with good info on horns at the following link http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/lamhorn/18.html
I know some horn designs are large, but the Lamhorns are not. The 1.8 cabinets are 50" high, 12.5" wide and 16.5" deep at the base. This is an advantage of the folded horn. Anyway I love them, if your interested follow the link.
FYI I HAVE NEVER HEARD, AND I HAVE HEARD MANY, CONICAL HORNS THAT DON'T "MEGAPHONE" VOCALS WITH A CONVENTIONAL PERMANENT MAGNET COMPRESSION DRIVER. I HAVE SINCE NOT FOUND A QUALITY BUILT CONICAL HORN THAT "MEGAPHONES" WITH A QUALITY FIELD COIL COMPRESSION DRIVER JW5115
ALL CAPS makes it seem like you are shouting, JW5115. One could say it adds a megaphonic quality to your comment.
I would think that the design of the horn would cause the megaphone effect, not the type of driver. Men and women have vey different voices but both will sound like they are talking through a megaphone when that is what they are doing. Likewise, either of them will sound very different with, and without, the megaphone.
You seem to be selling field coils with a weak argument based entirely on your opinion. Are you in the field coil business?
Hi Audiogon members. I am back. As the start of a new year I wish you all a great one. When I lived in NY there were a few audio clubs I belonged to. If anyone is in the Orlando Fl. area who would like to hear my system(I would listen to your's as well,if you wish), let me know. I guarantee the horn haters will no longer hate them. I am not stating you will go out and buy a pair(it is still personal). I have friends and aquaintances who own top of the line B&W, Maggies, Martin Logan, and others, who jump at the chance to come listen, and I enjoy the smile on their faces when they do. Again, Happy New Year to all ! MrD
My rear loaded horns (A'la Cain&cain IM Bens) are like headphones.... I call it listening thru a rose coloured magnifying glass!!! For me, there is no turning back. Every single person who has come over to hear my modest system has asked me the same question: "how much would it cost me to build something like this?" I think that when set up and tweaked properly, they are undeniably addictive.... downside: You can't help but notice EVERY single little change you make in your system, often to the detriment of the precariously balanced , ever fleeting synergy we all seek to establish, and of course, improve upon.
Hxt1 - What else are you using with your horns to bring you that precarious balance? Most of the objections to the use of horns seem to be based on size and cost and you appear to have avoided both of those potential problems and come away very happy.
Well sizewise they ARE 6'1" tall!!! But they have a modest footprint, 9"x21". Lumber was $450, drivers were $150, And I put about 100 hours into constructing them. I'm using an almarro a205mkII with Bent Audio mods (resistive ladder relay remote volume/balance control) And tweaks (V caps, fuses, and so on) A Lenco with DIY slate/cld plinth, various MC carts with SUTs Bottlehead Eros phono , and a Modwright 999es platinum truth. Everything was purchased used here on A'gon or sourced locally, except The Eros. A cheap, fun system, and at night I can plug my AKG 701's Into that little Almarro and groove with no complaints from the better half!
Oh and speltz anticable speaker cables. The TT , SUT jumpers and IC's are all incognito, The other IC's and all powercords are DIY. This system has evolved, after 6 amps, countless speakers, And cd players, transports, DACs, and ancillaries this is it! For now.
Macrojack, exactly what components are in your horn system? As stated not everyone is a horn fan but to be educated it would help if people would list which horn systems they think are good.
Seadogs1 - Take some time and read through this thread. I know it's long but there is a lot of info in it that will answer your question.
My horns are AH300 by Acoustic Horn Company. I am using B&C DCX 50 compression drivers. These are mounted atop a pair of JBL L-200 cabinets which contain RCF L15P530 woofers. Crossover, etc. is handled by an XTA 224. I think they are good.
Macrojack, the new improved BOSE 901's sounds very very Horn-Like now. BOSE is now using different speaker drivers for their new 901's that just came out a few months ago. "One of the best" and a "future classic" that we will talk about for a long long time !!...
Bose in a swimming pool room sounds appropriate as they are designed to echo off the walls. However, I can't begin to imagine how they would ever approximate the sound of any horn, good or bad.
Hifisoundguy seems to be a shill, and a very poor one at that. Is there anyone here who takes any of his many Bose 901 recommendations seriously?
04-30-11: Macrojack "Is there anyone here who takes any of his many Bose 901 recommendations seriously?"
I've seen HFSG's several hundred Bose 901 recommendations and just figured that he really likes them, wants to stir the pot a bit around here (hey, we could use that), or both. Comparing them to horns, he's taken it to a whole new level.
901s are ok but, comparing (901s) to a horn system is weak. In the Hi-Fi game, I doubt 90% of the community have seen (or much less heard) a "Horn" system. I say this from the prospective of observing reactions from those coming through my door. Big, you bet, just like the audio presentation. Overkill, guilty as charged. Expensive, duh.. yea! Build yourself a Super KHorn setup and be smug when someone starts bragging about "their" set-up. I've been getting a kick (for more than a few decades) doing it.
Just to reassure potential horn owners - Horn based loudspeaker systems DO NOT attract pests and vermin the way that horn based threads tend to. I suspect many horn owners keep quiet about what they have at home out of fear that they might attract the attention of bashers, busters and boneheads. Certainly reading Audiogon threads with "horn" in the title seems to make participation risky. It isn't really. They're all talk and mostly just repetitive. All hat - no cattle.
So feel free to sing the praises of your big beautiful speakers if that's your wish. I've been doing so for a couple of years now without any infestation -- just a few insults and a little derision and name calling -- things I learned to ignore back in second grade.
Hi Marty- Feels good, huh? Finally you've found out who you really are and you've been able to shed the yoke of peer pressure and the need for public acceptance. Congratulations!!!
Your bravery and your wonderful story of self-discovery can only serve to empower other closeted horn lovers everywhere. You've provided a strong example by coming out like this. Thanks for sharing.
Unless the "LIVE" event is a rather intimate venue, it will reach your ears via horns. Did you know that? If so, why the remark?
The thread started a long time ago and wandered pretty far afield at times, but my aging memory thinks the subject of live music was broached more than once. That's only natural since horns are the undisputed best choice for professional sound reinforcement.
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