Hi Weseixas - I can't resist commenting on this part of one of your recent posts - "I do find musicians to be a funny breed, I'm sure there are many in the business with similar stories, regardless ...."
This, like many another comment seen fairly often on this site, seems to dismiss musician's opinions on audio out of hand, which is really quite bizarre when one really thinks about it. Perhaps you did not mean to do this, perhaps you did. I certainly do not deny that most of us are indeed a funny breed, LOL!
In response, I will quote another fellow musician who expresses many of our sentiments exactly. This was posted today on a different forum in a similar context (whether better equipment enhances a bad recording or makes it even worse). He is defining what constitutes good equipment, which he says is "gear that competently portrays performance elements of the music and not just the sterile sonic attributes of the recording."
IMO, far too many audiophiles concentrate only on the sterile sonic attributes, very often at the expense of the performance elements of the music. I have heard systems costing more than my house that contained supposedly state of the art equipment that simply didn't come close to the sound of acoustic instruments, and that no musician, therefore, would pay a dime for. We want to hear a cello that sounds like a cello, as in Weisselk's example you were responding to in your post I quoted. So do most equipment designers, for that matter, and I never see them dismissing the opinions of professional musicians. Of course, everyone has slightly different audio priorities, and I am not saying that you should necessarily agree with mine or any other individual's, I'm just saying that it is very odd to dismiss a musician's opinion because they are a musician. After all, a set of good ears is an absolute essential for our livelihood - we just use them a little differently, and a lot more often. |
I would dismiss Beethoven's opinions,
if he were alive today. |
'The Better any system get's to the truth, is the less you will experience these so called un-listenable tracks.'
absof*ckinglutely................ |
Poor Bill Woods. All those years of research, study and experimentation resulted in a horn that could easily be improved by consulting the posters right here on Audiogon.
I have posted links to his website several times now that would answer your questions. If you are sincere in wanting to know about his horns, you can get most of the info you are asking about right there.
Perhaps if you understood Bill's true stature in the pantheon of speaker designers, you would show more respect. You might even learn something.
I have. |
Hello Larsfool,
Thanks for the post , Audiophiles listen to recordings of live music and not live music itself , a completely different experience from a musician..
The cello can only sound at it's best like a recording of a live cello and again i iterate.....
I can safely say the musician comment is not uncommon , well at least for my experience, I'm sure there are many other speaker companies with musicians making the same claim, that was my point, it is not unusual for manufactures to make that claim , that in itself does not guarantee a checkered flag...
regards |
Macrobaby,
Your ignorance and poor reading comprehensions makes it difficult to communicate with you, not everyone will have your Borg like acceptance and mentality. ...
G'day! |
Hello Learsfool,
My comments was not meant to be derogatory to musicians. Worked with and for many in the past, My comments were nothing more than to differentiate the experience between audiophile and musician ...
The recorded medium ...
Regards |
macro,
You're starting to sound a bit like a broken record and a bit "shouty" like some horns as well.
Also, everyone knows the Borg have no need for speakers or acoustics in general, much less horns to communicate their musical information patterns. So Borg like, maybe, but not Borg for sure. |
Macro, you seem to be all shot in the butt with "experts." Why should I believe Bill Woods web site any more than I believe other horn maker's web sites. He says his way is best. DUH! What would you expect him to say. If you visit other horn maker's sites they will say their way is best. Go to a planar web site and find out why that approach is the best. Go to a box maker's site and find out why that approach is the best. You aren't going to convince anybody by posting over and over that if we would just visit his site we would find the truth about the holy grail.
Bill Woods web site is nothing more than a big advertisement for his products which is as it should be. That's not a bad thing but accepting his hyperbole as fact just because he is an "expert" and tells us how wonderful his products are is rather silly.
. |
Gotta give macro a lot of credit for starting a very active thread though. Lots of posts over the last month or so but surprisingly mostly from just a handful of willing participants. Also, I'd like to see more info from other horn product gurus, makers and affectionados to add a bit more variety.
For example, if I were interested in testing the waters with something not too expensive at first, like a Klipsch Heresy III, what other designs should I be considering for similar application and why in that price range? |
Mapman,
I think many more would join, fair discussion is usually game, Unfortunately Macro views dissension as being hostile and reacts in that manner...
Macrobaby , The condecension is not necessary , we understand that you and others like the sound of this type of horn, It's audio, It's part of the game. Maybe an explanation as to why a straight flare with rolled edges ala Avante garde is inferior to a dodecagon as used by Mr Woods and Weiss...
Maybe Herman can comment on this also as he has Avante garde's speakers...
Regards, |
Wes, I would if I could. The physics of why is beyond me. I just know I like how mine sound. If you go to the AG web site they have a technical paper on why they are the best but what else would they say?
As for conicals; the reason I get from proponents of other designs for not using them is they require some EQ which reduces the overall efficiency of the speaker. Curious that Mr. Woods doesn't mention this on his web site, or perhaps I missed it.
, |
Weseixas, you might want to stop while you're ahead on this one. My comments was not meant to be derogatory to musicians. Worked with and for many in the past, My comments were nothing more than to differentiate the experience between audiophile and musician ... -Sounds a lot like: 'some of my best friends are _______ ' IME musicians are very interested in good sound. I play in a band, and although I would not consider the other musicians in my band audiophiles, they are concerned enough about the sound that they bother to do all their recording analog (w/24-bit digital backup). The difference is nothing more than money- if they had it, they would spend it on stereos too. |
"Unfortunately Macro views dissension as being hostile and reacts in that manner... "
Ah, yes, that would be considered quite "Borg like"!
Lets be glad that Macro does not appear to have the capability to assimilate us against our will!
No horns for you! |
Ralph,
Interesting your response and worst your accusations.......
IMO you are suffering from serious conitive dissonance and as such you are not able to comprehend where this is going, so much so you end up disagreeing then agreeing .. LOL...
Which is it Ralphy ? |
Mapman,
If it steps past where I'm now, i would be the first with a set of Horns .. LOL..:)
|
Hey Atma !
A lot of my friends are ____________ yes really
A few of them have Horns and _______
A few tubes and ___________
A Few think analog is better , some say digital and _____
A lot still think the ribbons and SS sound better but_____
A lot of us get together and enjoy each other's diversity___
A lot of us enjoy the mix of toplogies_____________
A few of my friends are musicians with big pay checks_____
A lot of those same musicians can buy the best of the best _
A lot of them same muscians are not audiophiles ________-
A lot of them don't like that(effect)microphone imaging crap___
A lot of them are used to being on the other side of the mic _______ :)
A lot of us discuss the topic and not the ___________
You see , nothing derogatory , it is what it is .......
Regards, |
Weseixas asked how Bills Woods' horns would compare with Avantgarde type horns. For one thing, Bill's horns are constant-directivity devices, so the off-axis energy will have nearly the same spectral balance as the on-axis energy. According to Floyd Toole and others, this is desirable. I don't understand all the implications of the dodecahedral geometry, but it might serve to somewhat de-correlate the reflections in the horn body and/or at the horn mouth.
On another subject, I don't think mocking someone's moniker is productive, especially coming from one who claims to have years of experience as an industry professional. This reflects poorly on industry professionals, and invites the sort of escalation that would get this thread shut down or removed. It would be a shame for that to happen, especially if instigated or enflamed by one of us.
Thank you.
Duke
industry professional |
Hello Duke,
Thanks for the answer in regards to the horn types.
06-30-10: Audiokinesis wrote :
On another subject, I don't think mocking someone's moniker is productive,
We:
Please , do tell when this was done , i have only answered questions and charges, never mocked anyone's moniker IME, unless responding to such....
Point noted !
Regards, |
Also, I'd like to see more info from other horn product gurus, makers and affectionados to add a bit more variety. Not gonna' happen. Just go back and read this thread. Thirteen pages of very, very little value. (Sorry John, Duke, and Ralph.) From some of those gurus. . . "It's the same old story, those who've heard/owned high quality horns praise them, those who haven't put them down. Not worth sorting through it IMO. " "Humorous too, in that often the strength of an opinion seems inversely related to any first hand knowledge or experience of the subject." "It would be a waste of time. Those who are already convinced that they hate horns won't be converted, those who know better don't need converting. " |
Dan_ed, it might helpful if you put a user-name to those quotes. |
'Thirteen pages of very, very little value. "
Well, for me, there is only so much can conclude about how something sounds by discussing it, even if in great technical detail.
You have to hear it. Unfortunately, a web site cannot provide any indication of what the stuff talked about really sounds like. |
I learned a few things: some horn enthusiasts are interested in time coherence, some horn enthusiasts will use digital manipulation, some horn enthusiasts use high powered ss amps, many if not most of the horn enthusiasts on this thread use either custom or modified horns. While I'm not surprised that that would happen, I'm a bit surprised that it showed up in what I would imagine to be a small sampling. |
Here's a link to a 6moons article about horns. If everybody who is still on board would read it, we might progress forward with a modicum of commonality. It's worth a try - and the article is very entertaining.
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/hornographic1/1.html |
Yes, it seems there are two distinctive large camps of horn owners and then all the rest:
1) enthusiasts with custom horns
2) Klipsch owners (many that have also customized these themselves to some extent) |
Unsound, I doubt that any of those folks have A'gon accounts. There is a big, wide, wonderful audio world out there and it doesn't revolve around Audiogon. |
Dan_ed, I'm sorry, but, once again I'm not sure who you're refering to. The the post I made re: the things I learned, referenced things posted directly on this thread. |
That was my answer to your post Dan_ed, it might helpful if you put a user-name to those quotes. . I completely agree with your list of what you have learned on this thread. How could I not? :-) |
At least for me, that 6moons link, just illustrated more reasons; "Why not horns?". I want to spend time listening to my system, not table saws. For those that enjoy all that, well good for them. Perhaps, I'm mistaken, but it appeared that many involved in that project were more than just possibly retired, and if so, might have more available time than those who are not retired. I will admit that there is something appealing about custom made speakers designed for a particular room, but, the commercial viability of something like that looks (at least to me) limited. With satisfactory products that I can actually audition before committing to, I have neither the time or inclination to bother with such a project. |
I've got time but no inclination. I put my speakers together almost without tools. I did have to drill a couple of screw holes to mount the horns above the bass cabinets. Also used a screwdriver to change out the woofers and a wire stripper for bare speaker cables. Bass horns are not a realistic consideration for me for a variety of reasons but I would love to have a pair like Herman has if logistics ever permit.
That article was entertaining and informative for me. I fantasize about adopting such a project but I have enough self-awareness to know that I lack the enterprise, tools, and the tactile skills to ever pull it off.
In all probability I'm done with speaker upgrades.
And I have nothing to sell in the area of horns. I do have excess amplifiers, etc. but those can wait.
I started this thread because my horns have so far exceeded my expectations that I'd like to spread the news. I'm not drumming up business for Bill Woods. He's so busy that he has stopped taking new orders. So the only person apt to benefit from my recommendations is you. I'm willing to demonstrate mine in Colorado and Oswald's Mill is showing them in Manhattan. Some of you probably heard these horns at RMAF a couple years back. If you get the chance, check them out. |
Here is an article I found online that might be of interest to the more scientific amongst us. The math got over my head rather quickly.
http://sound.westhost.com/articles/waveguides1.htm
If it provides no other benefit to anyone here, it will at least demonstrate the complexity involved in horn design. |
Horns have been around a while. I have to believe there are a good number of engineers out there who understand the key principles pretty well.
Now, do a search and try to find experts on Walsh driver theory and construction! The inventor (Lincoln Walsh) died before the first realized implementation, the OHM A, was constructed and as far as I know you can count on one hand the # of expert providers of Walsh driver technology these days!
Ha! My speakers are more complex (albeit also more boring looking) than your speakers!!!
Seriously, if not for Walsh driver technology, my interest in horns would surely increase in that I do not find many conventional designs, including planars, that can do what a Walsh driver can do. |
WOW!! Just like in school. I propose a little independent reading and everybody runs for cover.
Mapaman - I don't know much more than what I've read in your posts about the Walsh driver. I was aware of it back in the 1970s along with the Heil and the Magnaplanars. All were interesting and radical and exotic at the time. For reasons that elude me, the Heil and Walsh seemed to flash and fade while the Maggies slowly developed a huge following. I suspect the magazines had something to do with that. |
YEs, Magnepan has a dealer network while OHM/Walsh went factory direct only back in the 90s. I owned Maggies and older OHMs concurrently from 1985-2007. Then I realized that OHM was still around and providing upgrades for their old speakers. I decided to try this and ended up dumping the Maggies and a pair of nice B&Ws as a result.
The Walsh driver is more a different way of looking at how traditional drivers produce and propogate sound and the theory required to deliver optimal results using drivers in this different manner. I've read where in Lincoln Walsh's theory all pistonic drivers operate as Walsh drivers as well, just not very well. There are really only 3 flavors of marketable Walsh driver around today, those used by OHM in their CLS driver configuration, the German Physiks DDD driver, and "TLS" designs produced by a gentleman named Dale Harder which are modeled after the originals produced by OHM years ago, which were reknowned for their SOTA sound quality when working and their fagility which resulted in the original designs not being a viable long term consumer product, despite the stellar results under normal conditions. |
BTW Dale Harder's TLS Walsh speakers can be seen in his posted system here which is also an audiogon "featured" system. |
Go Altec pass up Klipsch. Why pay more for cheaper build poor design and lower performing transducers. To me Klipschs are responsible for much of the negatives tossed about by non horn owners. When folks not in the know think horn Klipsch is whats on there mind. When the uninformed think speaker Bose is on there mind. Sure a K horns far better than bose but the analogy holds true. |
Anyway, back to the real world (and away from theory)...
There is a pair of Klipsch Heresy HBR speakers up for sale on Ebay by a seller in the next town from me that I might be able to pick up and try for not much. I would try these in my wifes sunroom where the Dynaudio monitors are pictured currently in my system listing.
Questions:
- How much are a pair in good working order and condition worth?
- If I do it, what kind of sound should I expect in comparison to a pair of good Dynaudio monitors? BTW the Dyns are rear ported and bass heavy in that room. Speakers in that room have to stay close to the wall. The Heresys seem like a reasonable design to try there in that they are reputably not bass heavy. |
If you are thinking of Klipsch, it seems the older they are the better they are. But if the price is right, what the heck. They work OK next to the wall. I think I would go for Altecs first as well.
A few years ago I found a set of Electro Voice Regency 3s for cheap. They needed new wiring and new crossover controls. They are designed to use the corner of the room, that is, you put them all the way into the corner. If you don't do that they will not play bass as the cabinet and corner form a sort of horn. Anyway, I just set them up by the Snell Bs I had at the time. They were immediately more spacious, more dynamic. I expected the greater impact, but the increased resolution and depth of the soundstage floored me. Instruments hung in the air, expressed with great timbrel accuracy, delicacy where it was needed and power where needed as well. In short, played every aspect you wanted out of a speaker better than the Snells, except for the bass.
Since I was never able to put them in the corners, I never found out if that was still true when they were properly set up, but this experience let me know in spades that horns had something to offer. |
My room is 12X12 with listening locations out of the typical sweet spot.
This has swayed me away from considering corner horns (Klipschorns mainly) in that room in that speaker locations cannot be tweaked and you generally want to listen from the sweet spot?
Although tucking a pair of big horns into the corners out of the way is the only way big horns would ever make it into my wifes room and even that might be a stretch. |
Thanks for the advice.
I'll see what happens this weekend when the auction ends. I can pick up locally and not worry about shipping damage and if the price stays where I think it will, I will be tempted to test the waters perhaps. I'm sure I can find something to do with them. Its fun to experiment and play! I'm lucky I have several rooms wired for sound that I can work with as needed in order to get a good feel for a new pair of speakers. |
Mapman - If you have the corners, K-horns would very possibly be welcomed by you wife because they will be out of the way with no wires running across the floor, they look like furniture with lots of wood and little grill, and they have a large flat space on top of each for knickknacks, etc. Learn how they work in the corners and shop for a deal. Sometimes a decent pair can be found for $2K or less and they will not depreciate if you maintain them properly.
If you see promise in them, there are many simple, cost effective mods available.
Because they are extremely efficient, the amplification options are many and small power amplifiers can be had for less money. If tubes aren't your thing, there are many interesting Class A SS amps to consider. I have a Rawson Aleph J Mini clone that sounds great with my horns. It cost me $275 from a guy at Audio Circle, as an example.
I too would choose Altec first but they are not so available as K-horns, and might not please your wife or resell as well. So, for your specific circumstances, I think the K-horns are a cool idea. |
Mapman, without saying anything bad about the Heresey, getting a pair to get a taste of what horns are all about will leave you with a very wrong impression of what horns like Macro's, JohnK's, and other cutting edge designs are currently capable of. There is simply no comparison so don't draw any conclusions about horns from the Heresey.
. |
I've heard some very good sounding horn systems and think I have a good idea of what to expect.
Klipschorns would require a complete re-arranging of my wifes sunroom, but the end result could work, so I have not discounted that.
Cornerhorns are likely the only pure horns that I will ever fit into my home anywhere. Should I be concerned with the 12X12 room dimensions with cornerhorns? That is another concern.
I'm always scanning the market for a local reasonably priced pair of Klipschorns.
WE'll see..... |
Mapman - at the risk of being slightly off topic, I can say from experience that Khorns can work in a smaller room. My space is 13 x 13 and while I suspect my imaging would be a little more focused with more space, I'm very happy with the sound. I have modified them a bit - Crites tweeters and crossovers and Trachorns. I'm running a primarlly analog system with low powered (but really nice )amps - and at least for me, the result is such that I'm not inclined to change anything. |
Well, you'll likely have a one-note bass, but in a room like that, that issue is hard to overcome regardless of the technology. |
Mapman: You may want to consider the LaScalas. It is my understanding that the bass is horn loaded via the cabinet construction and unlike the k-horns does not require a corner to provide the horn. It does not go very low however - I believe around 55 Hz. My reason for the suggestion is that this way you stay with a full horn loaded system. The Heresey bass, I believe, is not horn loaded. This is not to cast aspersions on the Heresey or Cornwall but just a rather purist approach, i.e., if you want to try horns try a complete horn system. Of course there is the practical side in that you have ready access to the Heresey. If you do opt for any of the Klipsch please keep us posted as to your assessment - pros and cons. |
A question about Klipschorns.
How far do they extend in each direction along the walls away from the corner? |
When viewed from above the K-Horn looks like home plate with the point going into the corner. The idea is for the bass to vent from the rear and use your room walls as an extension of the basshorn. While there is probably no more than 24 inches of cabinet adjoining the side and rear walls, you do want your walls to extend smoothly , without interruption well beyond the speaker cabinet if at all possible. I'm not sure that failure to do this is a game breaker, it is said to compromise bass performance. Maybe there's a K-Horn owner here who can refine my comments. I used to sell Klipsch in the late 80s and I can remember achieving pretty good results with a pair of K-Horns and a Levinson ML-9.
Try putting a wanted ad on Craigslist in your area. You never know but what somebody will give you a call. |
Mapman: The bass extension of the k-horn depends on the length of the horn - which is the lenght of the corner in each direction. I believe that to get the full extension you need corners that extend 48 inches in each horizontal direction. False corners work just fine so long as there is a good connection to the speaker cabinet. |
The speakers extend along the walls about 22' or so. However, due to the 'home plate' shape the part not touching the walls comes out aout 32 1/2". As I understand it, it is preferable to have a wall extend beyond the actual point of contact. With that said, I have one such wall, but the other is interrupted by a window a foot or two from the 22' extension. In the course of fiddling with my system, I have switched output sides a few times; haven't noticed any difference between the two sides. Just one comment re: the Lascalas. I liked the sound, but the stock Khorns have far superior bass. |
