Why not horns?

Macrojack, One thing your enjoying is the controlled dispersion of horns. This reduces room effects. Your also not moving air but exciting air molecules into motion just like a tidal wave the water from the event isn't traveling just the wave.

Lots of personal bias, limited experience, a passing listen now your an expert. Why forum response can be a true waist of time if real info is desired. I can have any loudspeaker design I want I choose horns. And no they do not honk have audible distortions that are problematic for all loudspeakers distort. Yes they image and bass is world class. You get far less thermo compression out of horn designs. After you hear what thermo compression does to musical dynamics hard to enjoy a non horn speaker after. Conventional loudspeakers to me sound like they are working hard to produce signal. A horn system sounds at ease never forced. To me proper horn loudspeakers do most performance aspects better than conventional designs, except, cost, size, maybe WAF. Still to me many with lesser systems who could never afford or get proper horns or loudspeakers past she who must be obeyed of coarse could never except the fact that horns are just better for music. Since this fact hurts to much to except they must make themselves happy with far lesser designs. ;)

Herman, The tweeters a horn Fostex t500amk2 , mids horn, midbass horn and the bass system is a 8ft tall back loaded bass horn. If you want full front loading of bass into infra sound as this horn does it would be 25ft l by 25 w.

Horns can be designed to work great at less than 10ft sitting distance depends on design.

As Herman pointed out back loaded horns really are not horns at all. But this has been debated to death in other forums so most agree that a BLH design is a horn. Most as is mine is a combo or large ported cabinet firing into flared TL. Thus able to produce far lower frequency than equal size front horn. To reproduce 15hz a front horn needs to be near the size I mentioned. Most horns for monitoring or closer seating are hybrid designs horn tweeters horn mid standard woofers. I use a massive horn system in my office. I took much care with driver, horn integration, time alignments thus I can sit about 6ft from such. Hard to answer your questions for I'm not a technical writer just a designer. Some can do both not me sorry. I'm lucky I can write at all not my strong point. I does bother me a wee bit that so many in this thread say what I do and listen too can not be done but hey I know it can maybe thats all I need. I think herman was thinking my rigs a bit smaller than it is.

You do not need 35ft long horns. Herman I also have front loaded bass horn with 16ft horn path. You also have to consider the room if rooms right the bass horn can couple to floor ceiling to produce a even larger horn. I do this with all my horn designs.

I feel that comments from the 60s 70s are still passed about as facts by many. Audiophiles have been told for decades that horns where not hi fidelity. Many audio reviewers from the past where anti horn. And much of there bias has been passed about as fact today. Note the all horns honk comments etc this BS is still passed about as a fact even in your thread. Getting over this wrongful bad press and bias. Much the result of AS designs and stereo coming out into the market. Many owned a horn speaker in a mono system,now with stereo and these new AS designs about they where told by the press and audio shops that horns are old fashioned and dated sounding. Since they could replace the 1 large horn with 2 smaller speakers many did so and denounced horns. But this is funny to me since the new AS designs from the late 50s 60s are not so collectible [AR Advents etc] but the old horns they shit canned sure are. Maybe that should say something about the performance of horns that even the old designs are relevant today. And some have values approaching that of new sports cars. Do not think the ARs that replaced the horns are worth more than a few $100 today. Seems this has gone on today with the slim tower these are cheap to build ship store pack etc very good at profits. But sound is so so from most such designs. But still the poorer performing tower is hyped as the best design for audiophile use. For HT we where told big speakers where not needed that small cubes suffice and are higher performing and many still believe this as fact. In our hobby most fall for hype BS Bias etc. Never really investigating for themselves. Easier to pass about others opinion and bias as your own and much easier too no thinking or work involved.

Unsound please name the horns you've owned heard etc that are honky, screechy, shouty, have a cupped coloration

A lot $ for fostex fe126e. Check out horn shoppe you could buy near 2 new pair http://www.thehornshoppe.com/ I had a few customers use this type of treatment on rare fe206esr. Owners had to replace drivers. Buyer beware.

I disagree with Duke, cant always agree ;) While complex steep slope designs do have there place. If driver alignments correct and transducers horns etc are a match in other aspects. Than a low parts count simple network can have a sonic advantage[subjective since many times they measure worse]. If mating horns to standard woofer than Dukes correct. Pretty sure Old Doc Edgar would agree with me on that thought I just read a post on audioasylum where he mentioned such and Ive experimented for over 14 years with this. And Duke you would be surprised at the short listening distance Ive achieved great integration at with massive horns. Hybrid horn designs have been used in such a way in studios for decades does surprise me that many still stand by the large distance for horns since this isn't so unless loudspeaker design calls for this distance to integrate. Much easier cheaper to just say sit 10-15ft away then to attend to why this is so and optimize design. Horns can and have and continue to be designed and used for near field or monitoring use. Small rooms have and continue to be used by Japanese horn types. I could and did use my Altec A7s at 6ft distance after horns where adjusted at full angle. Worked very well. I listen to a massive 4 way front horn in my office as I type this I'm only 7ft from them. This is where I converged them to sound best. And its not shouting honking colored, trebles world class,bass pressures are present even at low levels with out bloat and full of bass detail lost to conventional designs. This isn't rocket science if some yahoo research designer in WI can pull it off. I'm sure it can be done by others. But I know WAF, large profits, hard to sell loudspeakers or other items that are not similar to others in design and appearance, this gets in the way of proper design and end performance and can handy cap most consumer products,the more mass-market the more similar,the more compromised. This is well known to any product designers and affects audio design as much as anything else.

Duke I agree. That to large a midhorn to low a crossover point can cause problems. Why I'm now using a oval tractrix horn this allows proper integration of drivers the oval tractrix horns has solved a few problem of round tractrix maybe give one a listen not to costly. I crossover tweeter to midhorn about 6khz midhorn to midbass about 1khz. This way I can physically time align drivers in vertical array. I also design horns so tweeter midrange can be adjust in angle so you can converge at very close listening distances if you want. Its a pain to design this way everything gets large fast. Cabinets get complicated. Crossover parts horn comps etc all need to be matched with much thought. But end results more than worth the effort.

Fast woofers they pass me in the slow lane. How many MPH can a fast woofer do anyway? And why do people still think of bass as fast or slow. For to me this doesn't describe any real aspect of sound quality. I have never heard fast or slow bass and I design bass systems. I have heard time delay, limited transients, excessive distortions, phase issues. But not fast or slow. Since these drivers are not going anywhere I would say all transducers are very slow indeed. Unless rolled down a steep hill then a fast transducer is possible.

I'm running 1000 watts on bass horn 550 on mains. My horns do run fine on low power. But to think only low power is best for horns is wrong. Many audio designers I know run hi power on there horn systems. Doesn't mean I use all this power but the sound quality's of the amplification I choose compliments my horn system.

Duke your loudspeaker design is interesting and I'm sure very well thought out but the name darn your as bad as me picking them ;) Cloud chaser..I was thinking of pimping your bi pole design if I do will name it the DL BP after you. I started this when we chatted awhile back but didn't want to step on your toes. But read where you do not care if others use your idea. I have what I thought is a great idea for cabinet to allow better bipolar effects and image. So far results are very good. Might be able to break the $2500 price point with this design.

Herman I have 2 bass horns about. The massive one with 4-18in and and a large front loaded design. The 4-18 is 106db 1 watt 4 ohm min has a 16 ft path. My front loader is closer to the size of your front horn. But since hybrid in design its a improvement over exponential front horns for bass, can produce lower output with less colorations or distortions its more compact suffers less from time alignment issues and can be just as efficient. The front radiation on the 4-18in is not producing most of the output since its run below 50hz. Most output comes from bl horn. Which is tuned at 50hz. The front loaded bass horn 94db 6 ohm and produces 18hz with much pressure. I use SETs but also powerful amplifiers. If amplifiers designed proper has low noise if loudspeaker impedance match's than why only limited oneself to small power. There is no one way or the highway here. Many ways to skin the audio [or horn] goose.

Agree with gawdbless on this making bold all encompassing statements. Sad part of it all is the huge disservice these types due to audio by keeping people with limited experience from trying something new. Since they read the all this is that or that is only for hi-fi not music or all this does that. Just BS anyone with experience can see but those new will just take this as fact. And its not just horns TT CD SET PP SS amps Ribbons Planar STATs cones domes all have detractors. I see this daily in forums all [insert name here] users are deluding themselves only the [insert name here] is capable of accurate music reproduction. Have a open mind for once remember no absolutes, nothings perfect and if you do not like something does this now means that its crap for all? Or maybe you just do not enjoy it ever think of this? Maybe you never owned a recently constructed horn so your listening bias is from casual listens not real hands on experience. I for one know its possible to design very good sounding accurate loudspeakers of most any design and transducer type so why not with horns?

Accurate?? By what definition? I test smaller designs in a anechoic chamber measure for accuracy this is how I define accurate true to signal able to produce musicality thats true to intention of artist. And yes why not make the sound quality's enjoyable unless you just want accurate poor sounding loudspeakers? I'm done with this waist of forum space. Have better things to do like designing loudspeakers of all types. Will let the members with very little real hands on experience take over. They need the ego stroke. Have at it I'm out of here...

Large images are a result of recordings not loudspeaker design. Near all recording spaces, instruments etc are larger than reproducing loudspeakers. To me the worst offending loudspeaker designs in audio are bookshelf models they offend in many ways limited dynamics, massive thermo compression,reduced frequency response,Limited SPL.

Dunning-Kruger Effect seems many are suffering from this. You know who you are.

All you need to know is Altec. Pass right by Klipsch. Altec used better transducers design etc. Plus more affordable. Than Klipsch

Wesseixas this is as simple example as I can find http://www.bio-sound.com/images/Wave2D1Src.gif note the molecules are not going anywhere just the wave, all transducers do this. And if you looked into it I offer fullrange, ribbon and horn based systems. I have no bias to any 1 design. Such as many posting here do I try design most every type of loudspeaker. Does bother me to see so many wrong comments about performance of various transducers or loudspeaker types etc from the uninformed. You should read all the - about ribbon designs passed about much of it wrong but taken as fact now. Same with horns.

Unsound imaging issues? Never experienced any weakness in horn based systems to image. If well designed as any loudspeaker should be, horns image wonderfully and can be used in near field if designed for as many of the pro monitors are. I design many for professional use most of the music today is monitored with horns just to bad they record much of it so hot today. This is not the fault of horns. Many of the professionals I deal with engineers scientists medical material researches etc could have loudspeakers of most any design but horns are the better choice for many of them. For audiophiles only a few buy horn systems though I try. They opted for more conventional design. Mostly out of fear since horns have such a greatly undeserved poor reputation.

loudspeakers transfer energy within the medium[air], does not transfer mass

Check out this link http://www.ndt-ed.org/EducationResources/CommunityCollege/Ultrasonics/Physics/wavepropagation.htm

Unsound your mistaken ;)

Weseixas since you say you've heard owned or have had much experience with the worlds greatest loudspeakers. Could you let me know brands of horns that you feel represented the best examples that you took the time to demo? You state [my decision is based on hearing the best of the best,] So lets hear it what are the best of the best?

Thank you Weseixas. For taken the time to list the horn systems. In audio we should be happy if we find what we enjoy. No right or wrong. Take care and happy listening.

Go Altec pass up Klipsch. Why pay more for cheaper build poor design and lower performing transducers. To me Klipschs are responsible for much of the negatives tossed about by non horn owners. When folks not in the know think horn Klipsch is whats on there mind. When the uninformed think speaker Bose is on there mind. Sure a K horns far better than bose but the analogy holds true.

Pass up Klipsch buy Altecs. Only reason so many suggest Klipsch is they made allot of home loudspeakers. So more have experienced the poorer performing Klipsch models. But I know you will not listen enjoy your Klipsch. Keeps Altecs more affordable for folks in the know. So ya buy Klipsch forget Altec leave those for me.

Some Altec models work great in near field. Heres a few of the better Altecs they made many great loudspeakers that I did not mention look at drivers used. Model 15, 9844a, model 14, model 19, A5, A7 602a 604. I have owned most all the good Klipsch models. Your moneys better spent on Altecs.

Sonic differences of Altec model 19 and Altec a7 but keep in mind a7 performance varies with drivers used. Model 19 lower bass, more treble extension. Less coloration for model 19. A7 can play louder the horn loaded mid-bass is very enjoyable has a punch and detail that is missed by model 19. I have been able to use A7 in small spaces since you can adjust the midhorns angle. The model 19s images is more detailed over a7. Image height is better with a7. Both are very good sounding loudspeakers. To me both are a bit dark voiced since hi frequency extension for either not equal to the better modern designs still a easy fix just add fostex super tweeters. I have owned 3 pair a7 and 2 pair model 19 most klipsch models many other Altecs.

But for $1500 you can purchase Altec model 19 in good condition. Add fostex t900a tweeters a few parts adds about $1100 more, performance of this combos hard to beat under 10k no mater what you buy. And can be tweaked to be even better for not much outlay or skills. Heck most guys who complain about DIY a horn kit or adding a super tweeter easily can assemble there computers or modern furniture that seems be most DIY kit in itself.

You would use a capacitor and pentameter or fixed resistors if you can afford fostex r100t transformer attenuators even better. Some Altecs might need networks updated but most do not.The t900a has a stand you just move it forward or back to get some time alignment vertically. Very easy to do.

You have a triple alnico magnet magnesium dome tweeter, a ceramic composite cone mid alnico mags,paper cone woofers. I have listened to a few wooden cones and there are better about. So many types of cone material. Sure some are better than others. But its the total design of the transducers not any 1 part that I consider when designing loudspeakers or ordering custom build audio drivers.

Glad Bills busy hes one of the good guys in audio.

Limited production using finest materials since only selling a few costs are reflected in retail also yen is stronger than dollar last I looked. Now are GOTO or ALE worth the outlay I say yes but not in all cases I feel fostex t500amk2 to be better sounding tweeters than either ALE or GOTO. If looking for compression bass then these and maybe cogent are your only options. And yes I have used drivers from both.

I still see Lascalas around under $1k. Altec A7 to me the better design also under 1k. Altec model 19s about 1.5k, K horns about 2.5k. All good loudspeakers lots of other options in horns under 1k if you buy used, pro-audio or vintage.

I have many speakers and I still am enjoying my horn-loaded options more than the other types. Horns have been the most engaging the most entertaining and the most interesting loudspeaker types I have worked with over my 40 years of loudspeaker building. But I will add all my horns are fully horn-loaded. A hybrid horn ie horn with a ported box under can work very well but it's not the same as a full horn-loaded loudspeaker. But I do understand most wouldn't want such a large loudspeaker and to me, that's kind of sad small always sounds small to me, and real music isn't small. YMMV on all things rock on.