We audiophiles need to own up to the fact that we are a cult. As true believers, we cannot conceive that others fail to understand the redemptive nature of the object of our obsession. Too bad for us.
For most people, a sound system is just another appliance. They want to plug and play. They want to forget about it and to simply exploit what it can do for them. They do not obsess about the vintage, the specs or the pedigree. They upgrade when, and if, it breaks, or when they become convinced of its obsolescence (cassette deck to C.D.)
The rest of this palaver simply betrays our cluelessness. |
The Ipod is headed in the wrong direction. High end audio will flourish again when labor unions return to power and pot is legalized, or when hell freezes over, whichever comes first. |
There must be a thousand ways to approach this topic but I think you all would be best served to leave well enough alone. I remember the insurgence of yuppie money and ignorance in the Reagan years and I think that the ravages have yet to leave us. When I was in the Oriental rug business back then an elderly Afghani trader told me of a saying in his country: "Those who can afford it can't appreciate it and those who can appreciate it can't afford it". So it is with most things and twas always thus. Audio people are like most religious zealots in that they are quite disturbed by the fact that most people seem unwilling to adopt their beliefs. We pity them for what they are missing and dismiss their choice not to embrace our values as one of ignorance. They aren't interested and you should be glad.
During the years I sold audio in retail stores I maintained the same beliefs that many of you espouse here but the simple fact is many people just don't care. Some can make a distinction and some can't but no amount of education is going to be enough. Their focus is elsewhere. And that is good. Audio is populated by far to many buffoons at present,
as is well documented by the insipid, irrational, misspelled and unpunctuated reponses I inadvertently invite by posting any ad. A small community made strong by unity of vision and co-operation in purpose is a better goal. Suppose we do some weeding rather than blanket seeding. It's the money issue that seems most corruptive. Why don't we all relax and focus on what we have rather than what we might be missing? |
Wishful thinking. Most people don't get it and don't care to. That epiphany you imagine that opens everyone's eyes forever to the wonderfulness of high end audio is fanciful at best.
Over the course of thirty years I demonstrated high end audio to thousands of people. Most were already infected before they came to the store but the rest were immune.
I have a very high resolution extremely musical system at home and I show it off frequently. Many of those who have heard my system are musicians and/or music instructors. They never fail to be impressed but they never consider owning anything like this themselves. No amount of instruction or cajiling on my part can awaken a glimmer of ambition.
These people love music. It is their life. They do it all day every day and quite a bit at night too. They all have some sort of sound system but they don't care about quality at all. Just something that works; that's all they desire.
My relatives have responded the same way in recent years. There was a time when nearly everyone wanted stereo but only a small percentage of us took it any further. My own kids have decent systems hooked up to their computers. Both have NAD preamps and NHT Pro M-OO speakers with S-OO subs. Still they listen to headphones most of the time, occassionally using my rig.
Times have changed and audio as we know it is pretty much doomed. Fashions and priorities are moving away from our thing and our numbers are suffering from attrition. |
Best peaches in the world grow right here in Palisade, Co. There's a local pride in this, of course, but this does not make it impossible to sell canned peaches in metal vessels and sugary syrup in out supermarkets. Some people actually prefer their peaches that way. I'm reminded of Americans who travel to Paris and choose to eat at McDonalds. Why in hell would they not want to experience the exquisite cuisine for which the French are world famous and which they cannot duplicate back home. I'll never understand. There's no accounting for taste.
That said, it is likewise important for audiophiles to realize that what they have found in their hobby is tantamount to religion and, as such, is personal. Not everybody finds salvation in the same book. I live in Colorado and don't ski. To many that is like ignoring French cuisine when in Paris. Whatever! I love it here but I'm not much given to physical sports or downhill thrills. I know people who maintain as a personal goal hitting the slopes 50 times a season. Different strokes.
Audiophiles need to loosen their grip on the absolute sound for a few minutes now and then and smell a few flowers. We have 5 senses at our disposal. Let's use them all and not worry about which sense others favor. |
Why this point is so elusive to so many of you I cannot imagine but because I am patient and caring and a credit to my race, I will try once again to move this point close enough for y'all to grasp.
I don't personally care about hang-gliding, canasta, rodeo or bowling. Golf does not matter to me. many of the things that obsessive proponents adore and recommend reside well beyond the circle of my interests.
MANY PEOPLE FEEL THE SAME WAY ABOUT AUDIO. They just don't friggin care. It is not because they haven't yet heard your system. It is not because they are still on the near side of the great awakening. It is because the things that matter to a crazy few generally do not appeal to the greater population.
Let it go. It just means more for you. Sit back and gloat. The masses will be fine without indoctrination. They don't need you to "save" them. |
Good sound? Can you understand that you are referencing an opinion?
Good sound is a matter of opinion. Most people are quite happy with what they have.
I drive a Prius. I love it. To car people, it is a hideous, pretentious waste of plastic. They think cars have to provide an erotic experience. To me, they are just transportation and, as such, should cost me very little money, or none at all.
If you could get outside of your cripplingly narrow perspective, you would realize how nerdy and obsessive you sound. There is no good sound. If you like it, if it sounds good to you, that's all that matters. Reviews don't count, peers don't exist and prices, specifications and model numbers are not important unless misfortune dictates that you shop for a replacement.
Surely, you are aware that speaker placement for most people is dictated by decorating preferences or available space. Sonics are usually not a consideration. |
In my experience, the majority of buyers in big box stores could be described as not particularly discriminating. They buy brand name or price, not performance.
You guys have to get beyond your narrow-minded insistence that sound matters to anybody but you. It does not. The general public has a quantitative mindset that does not take matters of quality by assessment into consideration. In seeking quality they are guided by brand names and ad campaigns. They buy what they hope will send the message that they are cool. This may sound very familiar to some of you. |
Well then, it's settled - the reason why more people don't love audio is simply due to their not having found their flavor.
It couldn't have anything to do with their immunity to this particular obsession or their inability to spend this sort of money (or any at all) on audio toys. It isn't because they spend all of their disposable income on hunting, fishing, skiing, flying, sailing, racing, stamp collecting, college, bicycles, dog shows, rodeos, computer gaming, travel, each other or their church. It isn't because they are fighting foreclosure or have already fallen under that axe. And above all, with god as my witness, under no circumstances could it conceivably be because everything sounds the same to them and they could care less.
Oh, one more thing, 20,000,000 Americans are hard of hearing. That figure includes stone deaf, deaf in one ear, and needing a hearing aid to converse. Even if some of these people can hear music, they cannot appreciate qualitative differences in playback.
If you enjoy high end audio, lay back and bask in it. If you are concerned that other people don't value it as much as you do, then it would seem that you are seeking reinforcement and should re-evaluate your own commitment.
Music is nice but so are many other things. My wife likes to grow things in her garden and knit sweaters. She has a phenomenal sound system at her disposal and doesn't seem to mind that fact, but it can't replace those other things she values and enjoys. I think she is more "normal" than we are. |
Frank - Very few people ever get to the point of finding audio complicated because they lack the motivation to find audio.
I don't know if I can type slowly enough for all of you obstinate audio freaks to get it but the harsh reality is this:
We are oddballs - eccentrics - what we find irresistible is of no interest whatsoever to the vast majority of our fellow citizens. Just accept that. There is no magic solution to this non-problem. |
Onhwy61 - You are not being argumentative but rather setting the record straight. If this, or any discussion, is to be productive and rewarding it needs to be restricted to factual arguments, reliable data, and responsible assertions. When someone veers off course in any of those areas, it is incumbent upon the likes of you to introduce corrections. Thanks for keeping things honest. And Merry Christmas. |
Most everyone involved came on board when the ground was fertile and the crops couldn't fail. Now that there is a shrinking market and an inexplicably expanding manufacturing base, times are getting very tight.
If audio had been more welcoming and less elitist, perhaps the customer base might have expanded laterally. Now the only hope of survival seems to require reselling, rebadging, renaming, regurgitating the same stuff to the same people over and over ad infinitum. But the rancidity is becoming difficult to ignore. The excitement is gone. The superlatives have all been overused. The ultra dream stuff is no longer a carrot dangling just out of reach. It now requires a powerful lens to be seen because it is so far out of reach. Big disincentive.
My own theory on the astronomical pricing is this: sales are scarce at every level but if you can sell just a couple of items at twenty times their cost (and there are enough zeroes involved) you can stay in biz and continue to dream about the return of those halcyon days of Levinson and Krell. Heck, when you're not busy you may as well dream.
I'm retired. |
You guys are silly. Even in areas of the country where we enjoy some hobbyist density, there simply are not enough of us to keep this imaginary enterprise running. Ordinary non-audio people who have no interest in this stuff and don't care about specs, tube complements, driver technology or sampling rates are not going to pay admission to this place any more than I would pay to look at guns and camo fashions at Cabelas. Don't care is don't care.
Another point to consider is that the few places in our vast country that have the audiophile numbers to make this enterprise even remotely plausible happen to be the places most likely to have dealers.
Last point, and I hope you can at last grasp this:
You are in fantasyland. You come off like religious zealots who simply cannot imagine that anyone could experience the holy ghost or holy grail or holy sound as you experience it and remain unmoved. Fact is, though, they can. Even though you have discovered the one true short cut to heaven, they still will prefer to watch the TV, surf the net, hunt and fish, refinish furniture, paint the back porch, go bowling, read the wisdom of OchoCinco, collect stamps, sail their boat, plow their fields, etc. This is because we are all different. We all have areas of interest and they can be mutually exclusive. Some people even prefer to make their own music.
We need to get over ourselves. I'm sure there are threads out there wondering how the hell you manage to live a happy life if you don't make your own sauerkraut. |
Sorry to disappoint. I buy Bubbie's sauerkraut. I'm not a DIYer. Most things are best left to those with the tools, the experience and the desire. Talent can be an issue as well. I'm second rate or worse in all of those areas. I don't even solder. |
Exposure is not the issue. Just because you make something possible does not mean you make it happen. Providing tax breaks to the wealthy will provide jobs we have been told. Thirty years later we have far fewer jobs than when this theory was sold to us. Making it possible (one more time) DOES NOT MAKE IT HAPPEN.
I provided a clear explanation above which made it possible for you to understand that some people just don't get the audio bug no matter how much exposure they"enjoy". These people represent the vast majority of humanity. Many, if not most, of us make sacrifices of time and money to participate in this hobby. Most of us, it could be said, are obsessive about it. Regular old folks like you see walking around and driving their cars and shopping for Reynolds Wrap or a toaster don't give a rosy damn how great a sound system performs. They'l hear it and say it sounds nice or it sounds great or Holy Sh*t, man, that's killer, and they'll still go home and forget about it. They do not have an urge to own and don't care if they never have that experience again.
So --------- repeat after me ----- making something possible does not make it so.
I have tried cigars because I worked with a bunch of guys who loved them and wanted me to love them as well. I was given some expensive smuggled Cuban thing to try and I followed their advice. I went home, sat on the swing in the back yard after dinner, lit it up by myself and puffed away. All the circumstances were ideal and I gave it every chance I could. Yecchhh. I not only didn't love it --- I didn't even like it. Opera went the same way. Golf too. Even though millions of people are as passionate about those things as you are about audio, I didn't care to invest my time, my money, or myself in any of them.
Please pull out of your pompous fantasy and just accept the fact that you are the weirdo -- not the guy on the street.
If you get pleasure from your system, that alone should be enough. There is no need to proselytize. To each his own.
Another thought - when I started selling retail audio in 1975, everyone was a prospect. Owning a stereo was de rigueur at the time and families poured through the door constantly in pursuit of a sound system. They were all exposed equally. Some bought upscale but most went entry level and stayed there until twenty years later when they looked into home theater. Only a small percentage got the bug and began the crusade. Many were called but few were chosen. All were exposed. |
It is safe to say that most people who have the means to purchase our very expensive toys are aware of that option.
Embedded in the belief that others would choose to be like you if they were only presented with a sampling of what that means, is a rather narcissistic supposition.
I don't believe in god. There may well be such an entity but I have no reason to believe or disbelieve as much. I don't feel that I need to know nor that I could know. Others out there are condemning or pitying me for having blasphemed in such a way. They think that if only I was exposed to the bible, koran, lao tzu, glenn beck or ochocinco, I would recant repent and buy a preamp. Fact is, none of that will happen. And an audio expo on a street corner in Council Bluffs or Ft. Collins won't change much of anything. It is but a fanciful notion. If you don't believe me, try it yourself. If you pull it off, I'll admit I was wrong. But I ain't going to church. |
Some of us may be forgetting the unemployment and underemployment statistics that young people are facing. Maybe you are unaware of the insidious student loan trap too many of our youth have fallen into. Perhaps it has escaped your attention that wage erosion cripples the prospects for our recent college graduates.
Sit down and do the math. How does it look for kids trying to plant their flag somewhere on $40K per year? Times have changed. For those few who can't help themselves it may be possible to scrape together some of our leavings into a semblance of high end, but most won't even try. Buying a house and/or feeding their kids will crowd audio out of their thinking if, in fact, it ever gains entry. |
Nsgarch and Mr Tennis will share the Golden Blivet Award this year. Both have the right idea wrongly stated.
For the rest of you:
The Golden Rule says, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". This differs from the Limbaugh Rule which says, "Do unto others before they do unto you". Rush is a vicious paranoid.
The Golden Mean or Golden Section are names applied to the Fibonacci Series in mathematics illustrated in the following link:
http://www.textism.com/bucket/fib.html
Audio designers have experimented extensively over the years with Leonardo Fibonacci"s discoveries looking for ways to avoid wave cancellation. The topic is very interesting but appears to require a fairly advanced understanding of mathematics once you move beyond the fundamental description of its function.
Why don't more people love math? |
This thread is proving to be instructive in ways I did not foresee. |
4 hours is a lot of foreplay to waste on the phone. |
