I was listening to some modern hip hop with some much younger friends (I look about 15 years younger than I am) and put on Talking Heads crosseyed and painless. The 21 year old girl started grooving to it immediately. I explained it was made in an era before protools and auotune.
Even though not my genre, old disco has a much higher level of Musicianship than much of dance music today, which is designed to be disposable.
There are however bright spots in artists like Regina spektor, who was Classically trained in Russia, and her pop music shows the complexity of those musical influences.
Similarly, someone growing up in a diet of Macdonalds would never develop the palette for gourmet (or even whole) food, I believe that's what's fueling the disposable and simplistic music of today.
I was surprised to find several years ago that my teenage nephew liked Frank Zappa, so there is some hope I suppose. |
OP is simply begging the question. Logical Fallacy 101. |
Oops, my first sentence is incomplete. The last word was to be "interesting". |
I often find what a favorite Artist of mine has to say about another Artist (or entire genre). In the 60's Bob Dylan said Smokey Robinson was our greatest living poet. Not long ago he expressed his approval of and interest in current Rap. Bob has always been far ahead of the curve, but in this case I'll just say he and I will have to agree to disagree. I was also "supposed" to like The Clash, and didn't. |
The question lingers: is rap, whether you enjoy it or not, even music?
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It would be interesting to hear what Eminem might come up with in his golden years. I hope he makes it there.
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martykl, As an old man I've noticed that while wisdom does knock on the door with age, few let him in . Most young fools just become old ones .
What passes for an open mind in your youth would be an empty mind in your old age . |
Rap is more expressive story telling accompanied by music. Some similarity to the blues there.
Rock is more about an expressive musical style accompanied by lyrics.
They all have lyrics and convey messages but the messages differ in terms of the culture influencing them and that of the target audience.
Like reading a book, listening to music is a way of hearing about the experiences of others and relating to those perhaps in some way. Rap is well designed for this it seems to me. The music serves more as an accompaniment than it is the feature. Kind of like a more rhythmic form of ballad.
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Interesting observation by Schubert. Rap/hip hop strikes me as much closer in spirit to 1950s Rock n Roll than most other contemporary music. On the whole, it's been significantly more counter-culture than most other pop music forms that have come and gone since then. Like the message or not, at least it has something to say. Rock music has produced a fair number of virtuoso players over the decades, but you can argue that that sort of misses the point. None of this music need necessarily be about technical competence.
However, little hip hop resonates with me. While that doubtless says more about me as a listener than it does about the music, it also speaks to an earlier argument made in this thread:. As we get older, we listen differently. Some have suggested that we listen with a more discerning ear, but it's also likely that we listen with a less open mind - and I plead guilty to that, as well. |
I don't know much about anything but Classical but I do know I would much rather listen to the best of rap than the best of rock.
Far more intelligent, relevant and creative IMO . |
I find very little rap or hip-hop that doesn't annoy or offend me. I don't think of it as music at all--it's rope-jumping rhymes with loud percussion accompaniment. I do like some recently-produced music, usually some sort of alt. rock or pop. Anyway, I listen more to classical than popular music these days.
I find some truth in this oversimplification:
Rap--people talking when they should be singing
Opera--people singing when they should be talking
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What really sucks is the pandering, witless, sfb, utterly mercenary "classic rock" radio stations that are nothing better than 60's am radio with marginally better sound.
I don't like rap but it deserves its place in the pantheon simply because it's still here - and amazingly popular - current popular r&b is...popular. I may not get it, or appreciate it for that matter, but the guard has changed and I missed it. I don't miss missing it, either.
My parents thought "my" music sucked - that's the way it should be!
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What does your wife think when she reads this sentiment? |
I hate Elvis Costello. Why? Because he's married to Diana Krall .... and I want to be married to Diana Krall. |
I am hearing and buying new rock music all of the time and am so happy to find new good bands. YouTube is a good source for new bands.
There is also some great new R&B stuff being done as well. New Classical and Jazz too. I would shoot myself if all I was listening to was the same stuff over and over. Was it Duke that said "if it sounds good it is good"? I'm with him :) |
Why do you assume innovation/progression is synonymous with young people...??! |
Young people have not heard those same 8 notes nearly as many times as us old timers so chances are they are not nearly as jaded as us...yet...and better able to soak in new things and appreciate it. |
"Look harder before stating that contemporary music is crap"
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Some of you are commenting as if you've heard ALL genres...you're ignorant of many innovative & adroit artists.
I'm not saying it's a necessity but being an accomplished musician certainly affords you a better understanding of what you're experiencing.
Look harder before stating that contemporary music is crap... |
There are the gems, duds and everything in between all the time.
We change, times change and music changes accordingly.
Nothing stays the same.
Good thing too. Too much of any one thing tends to get boring over time. Even the good stuff. |
Bdp24 I still like Elvis Costello and Talking Heads. "Stop Making Sense" is still at the top of my list of concert movies--and I'm a child of the damn 60's. |
As young and adult I was valuing music mostly by effort of musician. Most of modern and even past commercial music really bad while still there are lots of artists that can bring joy with their talent and skills. Practically nothing changed today: there are still great rock and jazz bands, great classical artists, but they're not on the radio or TV.
Sorry I don't buy the age factor |
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The subject of our age relative to our perception of some music's quality has been mentioned a couple of times, but has been given short shrift. As we age we (hopefully) become more discerning and mature in our tastes. We also tend to become more cynical. The focus on the perceived decline of the quality of pop music is ultimately pointless and, in a way, self-serving and potentially limiting. As Don_c55 points out music (all art) reflects the time it was recorded or performed in. Pop music, by definition, appeals primarily to the young as they ARE the time; it is their time. Every generation produces quality art, as defined by how well it reflects the time; wether we like what the art says or not is a different matter. We may not be able to relate to it because it is not our time, or it may be harder to find due other changes in our culture. But, it's out there to be sure and we should see this as an opportunity to explore other music genres, current and from the past, that are not "popular", but are music that is more sophisticated and mature; as we are supposed to be. |
Even some of the "better" New Wave music sounds dated and disposable to me now. Stuff that I don't mind hearing, but don't feel a need to own, and wouldn't put on the player myself. Stuff like Squeeze, The Pretenders, Blondie (never liked them, but included because I know most did), etc. Too Pop for me now, not enough depth. But everybody's taste changes with age, doesn't it? Except for those guys I know who just can't let go of the damn 60's! |
I hated NW for teh most part when it peaked. I like some of it now in that it came and went and don't have to hear it all the time anymore. Like most all pop music fads. |
Agree with Bdp24. Nu wave pretty much sucks: Human Legue, Thompson Twins, Hall and Oates Meh... |
Wanna hear some empty, cold music? Listen to any of the early-mid 80's "New Wave" albums still in your collection! A lot of that stuff is no better than new stuff imo. I just went through my LP's and took a load of them from that era to Amoeba. I would never have listened to them again, the only reason to keep a record. |
Blues in Bach -- Fenomenal!
I often heard in Bach heavy metal and prog rock... In other words zippity-doo-dah :)
Don_c55,
You've forgot 2010's -- anti-war on drugs, anti-WWIII and jazz forever -- never changed; classical maestros still make a good living; music goes on |
Most of anything, music whatever is average at best pretty much by definition. You always have to look harder to find the gems. The real ones tend to stick around longer. Most fade into oblivion with maybe a very limited fanbase at best. |
No--this new music really does suck, at least from what I am hearing on Carson Daly's "Last Call", where new bands are featured live at "The Troubadour" and other hip venues. No one can play their guitars, there are no real keyboards, everyone is shaking a tambourine or banging on something to appear as if they are musical--they are not. It's all rhythm and electronica. The guitar parts are painfully bad--a few notes repeated over and over. There is no melody, no range of notes--the whole song is carried by the singer, and the kids in the audience are transfixed by the talent. It's all supposed to add up to a song, but when you listen and watch each person, they just aren't musical. Some of the lyrics are good and are sung with a lot of emotional investment--I do admire that they are getting up there to perform with something to say. A lot of what we liked in the 60's and 70's was from very self-indulgent artists searching for identity, lamenting lost love, about being on tour, etc., and we were supposed to find that meaning--but at least they could play and the tunes were likable--still are if you aren't sick of hearing them after 45 years.
I know there are great, young players in other genres--blues, country, bluegrass--really great talent, but the masses appear to like a lot of electronic, head banging noise that I cannot stand. |
John Lennon was blues, McCartney zippity-doo-dah. Steve Earle said Townes was a better songwriter than Bob, but try as I might, I just don't hear it. Ah well, it don't matter, there's a new Iris Dement album just out. God do I love her! |
Music reflects the times in which it was recorded and the intended audience.
60's and 70's - drugs, sex, anti war, and rock played on an LP.
80's and 90's - CD's in early stages of development, and rap and hip hop.
2000's - Screwed up. lost, and broke youth, listening to low Rez files on earbuds. The end of mass home listening on speakers. |
Czarivey--that's beautiful. I didn't know the man but in the Gospel according to Wiki it's said he cited Tchaikovsky as an influence, FWIW. Personally, I think anyone who can't hear the blues in pieces such as Bach's D minor Chaconne (2nd violin partita) or Beethoven's Grosse Fuge have a narrow view of things. |
Take any single year over the past 100 years and the majority of music produced that year sucks. The same goes for movies, art, plays, etc. The music that gets remembered 10 or 60 years later is obviously the best music from that period. To compare the best music of the past 100 years to whatever is being produced now is not an apples to apples comparison.
The economics of the recording and music distribution industries has radically changed in the past 20 years. The end result is that there is vastly more music being commercially produced, but it is now the listeners' responsibility to find it. Radio stations, magazine reviews and record stores only hint at what's available. Another economic change is that streaming services make it impossible for a songwriter to live on the proceeds of their songs.
And if anything above is too complex or just plain wrong, we can always blame Sweden. |
Is classical music blues or zippity-doo-dah? |
The amount of new music is unfathomable. To subject this to a generalization of "sucking" is not only unjust, but incomprehensible. Not sure what the audiophile audience is looking for, but quality is out there...in all genres. Certainly, it is evolving. Listen to jazz. Most purists denounce it's innovative progressions....been this is an issue since Parker broke the rules. |
The Ellington quote reminds me of another--Townes Van Zandt (allegedly) said "there are two kinds of music: the blues and zippity-doo-dah." |
Because of money that recording industry needs. |
Most people danced to the music of Ellington. that's what made him popular. The genius came out over time.
People like to dance to modern music as well, at least younger people. There is likely at least a couple genius out there as well making this stuff. They might get tired of cookie cutter and do something else creative and great later. Like the Duke. How many of his contemporaries are still even known at all today? A small %.
The other day my 14 year old daughter informed me that she cannot enjoy a lot of teh modern pop she did anymore in that she realized that the music of the 80s and Michael jackson specifically is so much better. |
"There are two kinds of music.....good, and bad"
I agree with teh Duke on this. I find all music good enough to listen to at least once. More that I will give a second try based on the first than not. In the end the babies get separated from the bathwater.
"Painstakingly crafted to tweak the brain's delight in melody, rhythm, and repetition"
And the problem with that is......?
Oh yeah, its not "creative". is delivering more of a product most people like not creative? Most people just want to dance, not listen. Is dance music bad? I like to listen mainly and if it makes me want to dance then the litmus test has been passed. |
Anyone here read, "The Song Machine, Inside the Hit Factory" by John Seabrook? Apparently modern pop is created much like Muzak was. " Painstakingly crafted to tweak the brain's delight in melody, rhythm, and repetition, these songs are highly processed products. Seabrook visits specialized teams composing songs in digital labs with new "track-and-hook" techniques."
There's a reason they sound alike, and unsatisfying. |
Mapman, another way to say that is that the Beatles music spoiled us to the point that we have no use for most of today's music. It's partly a matter of quality. |
There is the old quote attributed to Duke Ellington, I believe: "There are two kinds of music.....good, and bad". I've also seen it ending as "good, and the other kind". But that doesn't really help, as different people put the same music in the two opposite groups. One man's good is another man's bad.
Jazz musicians dismissed The Beatles in '63 (or so said Jeff Hamilton, Diana Krall's drummer, at a drummer seminar I attended about ten years ago) because they weren't virtuoso musicians, apparently not knowing that being a virtuoso musician is not what is required to make good music of the type The Beatles were making, any more than being able to compose like Bach (or write a song as good as did John, Paul, & George) is a skill required to make good Jazz music. |
Rpeluso,
I am 61, and am very open and willing to find good new music from any source, but I have to admit that a lot of what I hear recommended here and through other printed sources turns out to be very musically disappointing for me when I go to Youtube to have a listen.
Another example would be the bands that appear on CBS Sunday Morning. Every week I hold out hope that I will discover a new artist that really moves me, only to find a band of 4 or 5 thirty somethings, who seem to be very nice people, making music that sounds strangely similar to the band that played the week before. |
I think the reason is most of the folks who log on here are old. Me included. And we can't take changing tastes.
BTW, I always shudder at things like this, meaning why are humans so judgmental. Why are we?
Its just a matter of taste, that's all. At least that's my belief. But setting current artists up for a fall, where is the value or humanity in that? I suspect Nat Cole would respect Bruce. |
"11-02-15: Schubert
Because the audience for it does as well."
Schubert, this is the quote of the day :-) :-) :-)
Good Listening
Peter |
The Beatles were and continue to be phenomenal but a side effect was many were indoctrinated to music by them and perhaps pay less attention to other forms that continue to thrive today. |
Bdp24, as a burned-out Beatle lover, my solution is to turn to the alternate takes, demos, etc. on the Anthology (6 CDs)and to the BBC sessions. And for some reason I almost never tire of the LP "A Hard Days' Night." |
Hey the reason it sucks is its all recipe music .nobody plays an instrument anymore. Just all pieced together from a synthesizer. What's missing is there is no M O J O anymore. Someone needs to play a real instrument to make real music . Give me the classic rock music any day.
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