Thanks Calvin. Been following this thread and finally felt the need to respond. I think threads like this are worthy, allowing thoughtful exchange, humor and camaraderie. Just plain fun! |
Hi mikelavigne, did you know Dan D'Agostino invented the cable interface you have?, Dan did this when he was still with krell back in the late 90's, it is called krell cast, my amp has the same interface as your equipment does, I do agree that it is quite good, and that cable length don't matter, however, even this did not beat out the entire taralabs loom I use, the Zero interconnect was entirely in another league over the cable interface system, cheers. |
Calvin, thank you for the kind words and comments in the 'spirit' of this thread, @mikelavigne, you are slacking on your cable game. You got to get better ones. Lol. I'm rolling on the floor again laughing. On a serious note you seem to have an amazing system. Cheers!!! Lol. sorry I'm not watching Audiogon every day so my responses are not always timely. the 'gon' interface keeps me away. this week I did receive my second set of Tara Labs Grandmaster Evolution 2 meter RCA's for my Lampizator Golden Gate 'dsd only' dac. again; I am quite amazed with the step up in overall performance I hear. and I've not yet placed them on my Audiodharma Cable Cooker yet. allow me to explain my 'other' cables a bit, although any attempt at a serious comment on this silly thread is likely a waste of time. i use the new darTZeel NHB-18NS preamp and the NHB-458 mono blocks. darTZeel has their own proprietary interface using BNC connectors called 'zeel'. this interface is superior to RCA or XLR in my experience. so that is what i use between my dart pre and amps, an 8 meter pair of 'zeel' style Evolution Acoustics BNC's. then also between my King Cello tape repro (for my 2 Studer A-820's) i use a 13 meter pair of darTZeel's own BNC's as those tape decks are on the opposite side of the room. the 'zeel' cables can be any length and sound the same. I've commented earlier in the thread on my speaker cables. |
@mesch. Your comments are right on point. No matter what you spend on cables the synergy has to be right. I think you should have decent cabling. Chicken wire is not going to work despite what others may think. Some folks have cable envy!!! Lol!!! It's funny. I think you put good cables on good equipment. I agree that if you can get a better component you do that instead and long as you have reasonable cables. I'm not going to put cheap cabling on great equipment. |
@mikelavigne. Your system looks great. I bet you it sounds great. I'm going to have to hear it one day. Looking at the pictures makes me want to hear it. I know you have spent a lot of time and resources making it sound great. I was just kidding you earlier. Lol. I know you have made great choices in equipment and cabling. |
Calvin, thank you for the kind words and comments in the 'spirit' of this thread, @mikelavigne, you are slacking on your cable game. You got to get better ones. Lol. I'm rolling on the floor again laughing. On a serious note you seem to have an amazing system. Cheers!!! Lol. sorry I'm not watching Audiogon every day so my responses are not always timely. the 'gon' interface keeps me away. this week I did receive my second set of Tara Labs Grandmaster Evolution 2 meter RCA's for my Lampizator Golden Gate 'dsd only' dac. again; I am quite amazed with the step up in overall performance I hear. and I've not yet placed them on my Audiodharma Cable Cooker yet. allow me to explain my 'other' cables a bit, although any attempt at a serious comment on this silly thread is likely a waste of time. i use the new darTZeel NHB-18NS preamp and the NHB-458 mono blocks. darTZeel has their own proprietary interface using BNC connectors called 'zeel'. this interface is superior to RCA or XLR in my experience. so that is what i use between my dart pre and amps, an 8 meter pair of 'zeel' style Evolution Acoustics BNC's. then also between my King Cello tape repro (for my 2 Studer A-820's) i use a 13 meter pair of darTZeel's own BNC's as those tape decks are on the opposite side of the room. the 'zeel' cables can be any length and sound the same. I've commented earlier in the thread on my speaker cables. |
I hold the believe that spending 20%-25% of ones audio budget on cables is justifiable. I have a system that retailed at ~$15K however spent ~$8k on it. I have ~$2k spent on cables.
I do not believe i have expensive cables. My friends who own much lessor expensive systems believe my cables to be so. Someone with a ~$200k system and holding to my allocation % would have ~$50k invested, therefore owning expensive cables (by my assessment). However, I believe ownership of these cables to be easily justified.
I also believe that the $50k cables applied to my system would make an improvement, however not be justified as distributing the money across the system would provide greater improvement.
Whatever the cost of a system, component synergy remains most important. Synergy when matching components toward ones personal taste. Cables that do not possess synergy with ones system, or at a cost to obtaining better synergy elsewhere in ones system, are too expensive. |
Of course you have to know your source material and have had experience with equipment used when evaluating new cables. I'd say over a grand maybe for expensive or around $15K if your me:) |
"...we always forget recording quality in these arguments. [ ] Cables are part of it but recording is too. [ ] Just enjoy your system. I did today just like college. [ ] Music is a joy. Enjoy it. Expensive or cheap cables tap your feet bob your head and zone out!"
Great reminder on 11/18 from Calvinj about what's really important in all this audiophoolery.
With regard to the OP's subject, I'd say for some, because they think cables make a difference (I certainly believe they do) and therefore want the best they are willing to afford. For others, different motives might be at work. In any case, whether their choices make sense to me is completely irrelevant. |
Someone please define "expensive cable" so I know what we're discussing here.
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It amazes me how such a useless and worthless premise can go on and on, seemingly almost forever.
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Oh, excuse me. I didn't realize this thread is still alive.
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@mikelavigne, you are slacking on your cable game. You got to get better ones. Lol. I'm rolling on the floor again laughing. On a serious note you seem to have an amazing system. Cheers!!! Lol. |
Tara lab defense stops the winning basket again. Lol. Enjoy!!! Anyway I'm a little different music wise. I love 80's r&b. My uncle gave me Alexander o'neal first album on vinyl. O'neal is the first solo artist to sell out wymbley stadium six nights in a row. The recording is amazing. Jimmy jam and terry Lewis former members of the funk band the time. Anyway we always forget recording quality in these arguments. Those guys knew how to record. Cables are part of it but recording is too. Taste is important. We all are so different. Just enjoy your system. I did today just like college. I was 11 when I got that album. I still listen to it today. Music is a joy. Enjoy it. Expensive or cheap cables tap your feet bob your head and zone out! |
To be very clear hear, Michael had a wide band amplifier, taralabs did not have to rework the Grandmaster interconnect at all, rather, the speaker cable, it is called the Grandmaster sp speaker cable's, yes, the sp cost $3,000.000 more, it's a higher inductance speaker cable to give a wide band amplifier rich lucrative sound,and as I recall, Michael has the Omega Evolution speaker cable's, not the Grandmaster, however, both models have sp version's, happy listening. |
Mitch2, you have nailed it....I remember listening to the world premier of the new Pink Floyd album, Animals on WYSP in Philadelphia. My aural thrills were courtesy of a Panasonic military style radio with a single 6" speaker! I was enthralled:) |
Mitch2, excellent point. It's something I don't think most audiophiles can deal with.
The latest "Stereophile" has Micheal Fremer describing his experience with some of the better/best Tara cables. It seems their top model had to be re-engineered because they weren't an improvement over a previous model. He brings it up to point out that it's not all about price, but actually about what one hears. The reworked cable ultimately, in Fremer's opinion, easily bested the previous model. I don't remember the exact prices but the new cable was north of $40k and the previous model was around $25k. Small but important improvements. There's a sound logic to this way of thinking, but at what point is it aural masturbation? |
We are willing to pay so much more for small improvements. If it brings you joy. Why not? Until the next fix? I guess "joy" is relative and personal, but is it really the reason, or result? Looking back, does your current system bring you any more joy than the high school or college system you used while listening to The Who, Allman Bros., Santana, or whoever, in their prime? |
And agreed,...we are all friggin' nuts anyway! |
No doubt....there is a lot to be achieved with different (and possibly better) choices of components, speakers, cables, etc...not necessarily the more/most expensive of each. The biggest problem I see is generally that someone will come out and say "you aren't really experiencing great sound..." or "you are really missing out if...." (you don't have what I have....) in any given category. That's all horse^&$% frankly...there are many great offerings out there that make people happy. I've never understood that really but then again, many of us don't shill for other factions or manufacturers!
Back to part of my post above....what does it really matter what someone spends their hard-earned money on as long as they are happy???? But then again, there are people in the world who would have us all categorized into nice and convenient little groups and boxes/labelled (akin to Brave New World, Divergent, etc.., etc.., etc..., dictate how we think, what we believe, what we wear, etc.....) based upon their assessment that their view of the world/society is the right and best one...
Calvinj: Ditto on the ROTFLMFAO aspect of the thought that Mike L's room just has to be missing something without a full loom of Tara GME! Guess I'm missing out too since my Kool-Aid glass is friggin' empty(!) , oh well,...guess I'll survive :-) |
Yup! We are way past sensible. I will admit it. We are willing to pay so much more for small improvements. If it brings you joy. Why not? |
Referring to OP, I always assumed it was a natural consequence of the 'phile in audiophile, where the audio system becomes the object of obsession, love and affection. You give it roses instead of petunias, and if you've got the loot, you must give it an outrageously expensive diamond instead of the $1000 functional thing from Kay, even though most can't tell the difference from cubic zirconium. Love is strange, and practical misses the thrill. |
My relatively cheapo wires by some standards sound fine to me. So maybe something trickled already. |
This is getting to be cryptic...time to go home now Trelaine! |
"11-16-15: Schubert
Zd542, model numbers are kept by educated intelligent worker bees who don't drink kool-aid ."
My uncle Vinny told me its the serial numbers you really have to worry about. |
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Map, if that happens write down all the details for it will the first time in human history ! |
I'm hoping for some "Trickle Down Economics" on this topic as well. |
Cables are luxury and convenience.
Mega priced ones beautifully designed for looks, but experimenting with sound differences is truly sufficient few bucks instead of $30,000. All I did when I was child is to connect solid core wire or stranded picked up from the electronic lab where I was learning. I wasn't sure how much it was worth(perhaps half-dollar per meter), but I heard differences especially if solid core wire was used.
I can bet lots to find same wire that will sound same or better than $30,000 cable.
They made only for ones that don't know the difference between $3 and $30,000. Many would agree |
I must admit I have been a bit obtuse, but in all seriousness, happiness can be had all over the place with cables depending on your expectations and experience level. Of course the level of your system being critical. As for me, having had more gear and cables than a person has a right to, I have come to rely on MIT for one reason....they make listening to music more thrilling and lifelike. That being said, I once had a mid level system hooked up with Monster M series cables that sounded utterly fantastic. |
I needed to laugh right now and I am. System synergy means nothing. Equipment means nothing. If you ain't got a full loom you are missing out. After my cowboys lost I needed to laugh and the full loom comment has given me the laugh I needed. This is why people think we are cable crazy. You have to have good quality cables but I in no way believe that you get there with cables alone. No way get great gear and good cables and you are there but you can't put new Pirelli tires tires on moms old pacer and race Porsche. |
@mikelavigne you are missing out on a lot of performance. Audiolabyrinth is telling you right. You got to have a full loom. You can learn from this thread. Lol. Man on man. You got to do better. Lol. I'm busting a gut laughing right now! |
Dave b, it does if you consume kool-aid by the gallon . |
Zd542, model numbers are kept by educated intelligent worker bees who don't drink kool-aid . |
What are you guys smoking?
Harboring old wounds?
Maybe one too many drinks?
Projection can be cured with therapy. |
Pot meet kettle indeed...subjectivity is thy name nonoise!! Seems thoust doth have a forest for the trees issue. Stubbornnes and a limited perspective expressed through antiquated comparative analogies does not a valid argument make. |
"11-16-15: Nonoise
Pot meet kettle."
You have no idea, of course, but you just outsmarted yourself and don't realize it. lol. If anyone can see it, don't tell him. Lets see if he can figure it out on his own. |
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Nutters gonna be nutters no matter what...point is, the value is in the ear of the beholder👂🏻 |
"Oh, and there's a world of difference between a socialist, and a democratic socialist."
A drone is a drone. Who keeps track of model numbers? |
I never thought Picasso was all he was made to be. Art is a very subjective topic that deal with emotions, no reality. Not what I want in a cable. It's an interpretation, a approximation meant to draw in the viewer and leave it to him or her to fill in the rest. Sometimes it's like the Emporer's New Wardrobe. It's gotta be good! Look who made it!
Using a visual analogy, I'd like something more with a photographic angle.
Oh, and there's a world of difference between a socialist, and a democratic socialist. To inject Bernie into this conversation will only heat things up since lines have already been drawn. Stick to better analogies. :-)
All the best,
Nonoise |
John deere, get off the phone...Captain Cobalt has a new customer! |
We all have a twisted sense of the word fun in one way, shape or form i suspect :-) and I'd also guess we are all sufficiently wound up for another day at this point!
Overall though, great dialogue all...there is no right or wrong or taking sides really IMHO; it's all about what should make one happy and get us closer to hearing realistic music relative to our system goals and the direction we've chosen for our systems (and frequently change as we are an impatient lot to say the least...).
Have a great day everyone! My goal for the day is to hit play on the rig far more than I type on this damned MacBook for work and audio purposes (ah,...if only!). |
Mikelavigne, you should pm me concerning the Taralabs Grandmaster speaker cable's. |
Sorry mikelavigne, I assumed you had Grandmaster speaker cable's, since you have Grandmaster Interconnect's, that is odd not to have a full loom of these cable's, man-o-man are you missing alot of performance, I run a full loom. |
Here's a thought...what is the raw material value of a Picasso vs market value? Making any sense to all you expensive cable contrarians? There is no direct correlation between materials used and retail. Are you guys all really that slow on the uptake or are all of you voting for Bernie and his merry band of socialists? |
Zd,
Prada shoes are great and perhaps better value than Nordost cables.
Check Donald J Pliner and that's my preference. Prada no match. |
Thanks to Taters for a topic that has some legs . Not the same old same old , should i get the arc or conrad ... |
"11-15-15: Czarivey
Mitch2,
your observation is again another proof that most of money paid for luxury and looks just like Prada or Luxotica.
The value is still somewhere in $50 range."
I take it, you've never had a pair of Prada shoes. I can't think of a better value. They last forever. I have 2 pairs that I know are over 10 years old and they're still like new. |
I don't take it as arguing so much as venting and informing!! |
