Why do better MC cartridges cost a fortune?
Your’re not going to put a $100 Shure on one of these! http://news.softpedia.com/news/The-World-039-s-Most-Expensive-Turntable-Goldmund-Reference-II-62862.... |
In 1978 The Audio Critic tested and found the Koetsu to be the best sounding mc phono cartridge. But was appalled by its high price - $1000!!! Today I just saw an ad for an Opus 1 mc cartridge - used: $10,000 (list price $15k)!!! I am going to wait for the Marie Antoinette mc cartridge. "Let them eat cake"!!! Such are the times we live in! Trophies for the 1%!!! |
I can only imagine the hours that are spent voicing a top LOMC design and then they are usually built by hand one at a time. This costs money. These are not a commodity to be judged by weight or only cost of materials, although that is quite high too as all parts are highest spec and unique to that design. Economies of scale are not in play and amortization of the design cost is poor as not many of a given model are sold. Dave |
Why does everyone have such a problem with value pricing. If company X wants to sell something that delivers a 1% increase in perceived performance over anything else they have then they are free to (and by economic theory bound to) charge as much as the market is prepared to pay for that improvement. The manufacturing costs or other fixed costs are irrelevant, as long as they are covered in the long run. And, As others have pointed out, in the context of a six figure analog system changing the cartridge is in fact one of the cheaper ways of upgrading. |
Come on @inna to use AirTight as an illustration. At the same time they added the $15K Magnum Opus they also brought out the $2.5K PC-7 at the bottom end so bringing the cost of entry to the line down. The same is true of most manufacturers in that we are seeing options added that expand the range at both ends |
Everything is stupid at its extreme. These threads you start seem to be aimed at generating contempt toward those that can/do spend a lot of money on audio. I, like many here, don't have that kind of money but have instead spent many years and countless hours assembling an audio system that is not defined by such identity bias. Maybe start some threads on how that is done... Dave |
From what i gather you can buy direct from Japan for those made there and the price is not much different than the retailer here pays. You don’t get a warranty from the company by doing so, since they are gray goods, but I know people who save a lot of money doing this with high end cartridges. I hate the fact that the big league cartridges are often $10k plus. One theory- I certainly haven’t been able to prove it--is that if you buy a very expensive arm, you can get away with a lesser cartridge--e.g. that SAT? which retails for 32k dollars? Hell, that’s only the cost of two cartridges and a ’good’ arm. There is a mystique to these things- built by hand by ancient Japanese, miniature winding techniques, exotic wood and stone bodies, etc. I like what the Airtights sound like on my system, so I’m on my second one- the Supreme- no doubt when that goes, I’ll ramp up a step. Never tried to have one ’retipped’ but may do so at some point- then again, when there’s something "better," why go backwards? There’s a lot to vintage that I like but vintage cartridges make me wary. One thing I’m interested in doing, when I finish my vintage set up and install an SME 3012r, is trying a whole range of less expensive cartridges- from the SPU to the wooden Grado, etc. PS: the really galling thing is that they are degrading consumables that have to be replaced. Tubes are the same, and sometimes expensive, but generally, cheaper even for some of the better NOS ones. A piece of gear, like the turntable or tonearm, amp, etc. can last a lifetime. Speakers, maybe not so long, but there are refurbishment possibilities for those, as well as vintage amps. |
A big part of the problem may be economies of scale. Back in the 70's, everyone that listened to music at home, owned a turntable, arm and cartridge. There were hundreds of companies making cartridges at all price points. The skill for building cartridges was more widespread and parts were mass produced. Today, cartridges, especially MC, are a niche market (inside a niche market). Getting parts made, skilled assemblers, skilled designers, etc is quite a bit tougher, and therefore, more expensive. Now, I am not saying these are the only factors, but I am sure they account for part of the high prices. |
Though a side issue raised by willemj, it requires a response. Willem, you are entitled to your opinion regarding CD players vs. turntables, but you are ignoring one kind of important fact: an LP won't fit into a CD player's disc tray. I have a lot of music on LP, music I'm not going to through out even if CD players did sound better than LP players. Which they don't, by the way. |
I heard that too, that you can get at least some Japanese cartridges directly from Japan. Sometimes, even buying from the UK is less expensive. American prices on imports are often bloated because..you know why. Yes, $10k for a great cartridge that would last 20 years would be acceptable to me. Not the case. As for the mystic surrounding this..to a degree maybe for some. If you have great turntable, tonearm and phono stage, sure, you just get the cartridge you think will be best for this set-up and your taste. Still, the price appears to be disproportinally high for many. Bazaar economy laws of course apply, but this doesn't mean that the thing itself has such a high intrinsic value. |
Anyway, Japanese and some others cartridge makers love audiophiles. And not just cartridge makers. They feed on obsession. I heard that Accuphase costs half as much or so in Japan, don't know about Kondo Japan and Wavac. Americans can be funny too. How much is D'Agostino Momentum integrated? $35k or so? Do you really think that it sounds better than Gryphon Diablo 300 for $16k? I doubt it, but since I haven't heard either, I would be happy if someone who had commented. To be blunt - this hobby field is full of BS, but this doesn't mean that there is nothing but it. |
High prices have been discussed quite a bit. And while it is true that top of the line MC cartridges are outrageously expensive, I think there is an exaggeration in the original premise in this thread, that better MC cartridges cost $5k - $10k. I paid $1650 for my Lyra Delos (now priced at $1995) and I would characterize that as a better cartridge. Even my $500 Dynavector 10x5 (now $650) was a decent cartridge. Sumiko makes a $550 and a $1250 cartridge that both get high marks by reviewers. Sure, we'd all like a system with performance like a Bugatti Veyron, and that would mean a $10k+ phono cartridge, with superlative performance and tons of diminishing returns in the pricing to boot, but my point is, we can have better MC cartridges with better performance at $1,200 - $3,500. Lyra Kleos & Koetsu Rosewood are both included in that price range. |
Couple of years ago one could get Lyra Delos for $1k or so from the UK. That semed reasonable. As for Sumiko and lesser Koetsu, though I am unfamiliar with them, there is an opinion that they are not really good enough. There is also $1.5k Goldring, which is supposedly acceptable. Kiseki and Transfiguration for about $3.5k would be as high as I ever cared to go. Provided the rest of the analog set-up is up to this level. Not Bugatti - Koenigsegg, $2million. I think, they make a dozen each year. |
A new Bugatti is not a real Bugatti. :) Yeah, i’m sure there are some less outrageously priced cartridges that can deliver top tier performance. I had Lyras for a while (the Parnassus with the fancy magnets and a Titan i when it first came out). I gather that the stone bodied Koestu is more neutral than the wood bodied one. Horses for courses. I like what the Airtight Supreme does- just hate paying the tariff. Fair point that one shouldn’t have to spend 10k dollars to get state of the art. There’s certainly a lot out there- Dynavectors, Benz (though not really available in the states I gather or certain models aren't but correct me if wrong), a whole raft of others- Soundsmith, etc. As mentioned, I’m planning to experiment with some less costly cartridges once I finish the SP-10 set up in my vintage system. I know David Karmeli- who posts here (I think) is very fond of a certain era vintage Ortofon SPU. I don’t know if he messes around with retips or simply finds old cartridges that still have life. |
willemj And yet, none of them are as neutral and reproduce the original as cleanly, with as little distortion, and with as much channel separation as a cd/dvd/bd disc player of a few hundred dollars at most. As I said, such cartridges are the emperor’s new clothes.If you want to play LPs - and there are many fine LPs that have never made it to CD, or whose original LP sounds better than a CD made from its aged master tape - you’ll need a turntable. A cd/dvd/bd disc player won’t suffice. You seem to be confused about the fable of the emperor’s new clothes. In the tale, the clothes do not exist. On the other hand, expensive phono cartridges do exist, and they play music. Perhaps that is of no value to you, which is fine. But your analogy shows an ignorance of phono cartridges, or the meaning of the emperor’s tale, or both. |
There is the pretense that there is something (audio quality) which there is not. The analogy is with the listeners/onlookers who sheepishly follow the flock. Of course there are recordings that are not on cd and only on lp. I still have my turntable for those, but I find I rarely if ever use it. The reality is that streaming services now offer such a wide selection that no private music collection could ever compete. I have a busy job, but if I had time I would digitize all my lp's and just get over with it. |
These are for the rich only! The rich audio buffs are usually not scientists or engineers, and lack basic technology understanding, to "fine tune" the turntable/arm/ cartridge setup. Their systems rarely have optimal sound quality. They "throw money away" and believe high cost = best. They go for "snob appeal" to impress other rich friends. Proper arm/cartridge setup with expensive $1K to $3K, (but not ridiculous) cartridges is all you need for SOTA sound! There is no rational justification for spending $10K to $15K on a cartridge IMO. YES I have heard the big buck cartridges FYI. |
Rich people are as diverse as the rest. What is often true is that my 10 dollars is their one dollar or less. Also, not all audiophiles who have great systems are exactly rich. They have been improving their set-ups for many years and eventually might have systems that sound incredible and would cost over $100k if everything was bought new now. Bill, I heard of Air Tight cartridges. Balanced warm sounding? |
Bill, if I remember right you have Lamm ML2.2 amps and Avant-Garde speakers, and you use Kubala Sosna cables. If I were you I would definitely wanted to try best Purist Audio and Echole cables. The outcome of this comparizon is unknown, it may be a better move than upgrading the cartridge. Each time, at a much lower level, I upgrade my Purist Audio cables and power cords, my $375 Goldring 1042 MM cartridge sounds better and better. The difference is not slight. Good cartridges have more potential than it may seem, the same with speakers. |
@inna I might argue a $10k cartridge is a better investment than most other pieces of kit consider you buy one and when you’ve got your 1000 hours or whatever in you retip/rebuild for $6k or get the same $4k discount off the new top of the line, many cartridge manufacturers also offer trade in for comparable cartridges from other lines if you try the same whenever ARC upgrade their top of the line amps you’ll be out much more - the moment you plug a brand new amp or speaker in you’ve lost 20-30% of its value straight away the one real downside of cartridges is that it’s really hard to get them reliably on the used market as they do wear so the cost of entry is high ... but once you’re on board it’s not such a problem now if we really want to discuss the $10k burning a hole in your pocket I’d like to see you compare a $2k cartridge and a Herzan platform under your table with a $12k cartridge and no platform. I’d wager the former would outperform the latter ... |
Looking at all this from a different angle, sometimes you want to upgrade, have a specific amount for this and start thinking what exactly you could upgrade. So it might turn out to be a very expensive cartridge because you can’t upgrade turntable or phono or amps or even cables. It is actually my own current situation. I do $1k upgrade a year, usually just one item, sometimes two. But I have only two more steps for this - one more interconnect and one more power cord. After that I will probably have to switch to 2-3 years cycle unless I am very lucky. And I see no reason to get $1k cartridge, though my phono would still more or less hold its own. I will wait. |
@inna-I wasn’t really looking to upgrade cartridges, my comment was simply that the cost of replacing the high end ones was starting to get ridiculous, but as mentioned, I’ve never tried a retip on any of these. if I were to upgrade anything, it would probably be a wholesale replacement of my horn/woofer array. I like the fact that my Avantgarde mid-horn has no Xover. But we’re talking considerable money, and one possibility would involve buying another pair of Lamms, to bi-amp (which would actually be the least of it). I use the old ML2, which is different than the later ones in some respects, but like it very much. . I’ve gotten to the point that I’m past looking for nirvana- my system is pretty dialed in, I went to some lengths to get good electrical power here and I’d rather spend the money on records at this point. My priorities are to finish the vintage Quad ESL based system and add a digital rig for access to more music. For example, this is an LP that I could not justify:[url]https//www.discogs.com/Leaf-Hound-Growers-Of-Mushroom/release/2625594[/url] On the other hand, there was an older legitimate CD release that was normally priced. I did invest in an anti-vibration platform- a large Minus K- when I moved here given structural issues involved in mounting 231 lbs worth of turntable on the second floor of an 1880’s wooden house. It is passive, unlike the Herzan, but it does the job. @willemj - I’ll need to ask D Karmeli what he does with the old cartridges. I know he has a vast collection that he uses, including Neumann (which is a somewhat unconventional, rare cartridge) and Ortofon SPU (which I believe has the step up built into the headshell). |
Now that's the price of a record ! Yeah, electrical power is a never ending struggle. Here, in addition to a very dirty current, voltage fluctuates from 115 to 128. PS Audio Premier does stabilize it and cleans it pretty good, but if it is too bad it spends a lot of energy on itself and the dynamics gets compromized. Still incomparably better than without it. Power cords from the wall to the regenerator make a difference, by the way. Unpgrading your amps/speakers set-up would be a huge undertaking, that would probably take the entire system to the ultimate level. |
Active isolation like the Herzan (or similar from many others including KSI who make Vibraplanes) offers 99% isolation in all six dimensions. Passive such as Vibraplane maxes out at 95% or so and more effective in vertical than horizontal. Also latter requires a compressor for air supply. Cost is 30-40% of active however and certainly will give great results, as will other passive approaches such as Minus-K, do note however that the latter need to be loaded as specified for best results whereas active platforms perform under any load. So, many ways to slay the isolation dragon 🐉 |
Yeah, this could be interesting dilemma for some. If you have $10k to upgrade your analog front end and your table arm and phono seem just fine but cartridge and isolation could be better, what do you do? Do you spend it all on Herzan active, supercartridge or do 3/7 split and get Minus-K platform and another cartridge? And how can you know in advance? I suppose, you can return the platforms if bought from authorized dealers or directly, though. But not cartridges. The answer to this question is, I think, you have to develop 'audiophile instinct'. It will not always be right but in most cases it will. |
They charge and we gladly pay? And you have to retip or replace it soon enough. Most of them come from Japan. They sure know how to do business, don’t they? No, the manufacturer is the poor one. The real winners are those in the following distributor chain and when we go down to the core... your "enemy" is the audiophile next to you who wants to spend more :-) Supported by deaf reviewers .... |
Syntax, you are right too, but I didn't want to go into this openly, though indirectly I did. 'Audiophile class warfare' is something that we should try and avoid. Yes, if at least half of all audiophiles everywhere stop paying these insane amounts for the cartridges, things would probably get better for most. As for the distributors, that's another interesting story, and it goes far beyond audio and the US. Even French farmers suffer not to mention African miners. Deaf reviewers... I don't have an impression that most of them are deaf, but if they say everything they really think their livelihood will almost certainly get very insecure. Do you meet many people who are ready for that? |
Hello Whart, thank you very much :-), yes, all is fine. Inna, yes I did. After all those years all I can say is, when I look for something for myself, before I would ask a dealer (or even worse, a distributor) I would walk into a forest to ask a tree .... a much more useful conversation I will have ... But back to the question about cartridges You can buy nearly everything from OEM, the only exception is a special made body or diamond cantilever. All other parts are dirt cheap. The main difference is in the amount of coils, what kind of magnets are used and (very important) what kind of diamond is chosen. The diamonds are also cheap but no manufacturer chooses the best one. Why should he shorten his profit and when he does, he can not go for an upgraded (higher priced) model. This game has its own rules. It is not enough when the discriminated Audiophile offers his money to get something serious, no, he still gets something average (with some very, very few exceptions). But in a nice box, wrapped with a great review :-) Most will never get it because analog reproduction is a chain.... with Arm, cable, energy transfer from cartridge, phono stage and so on .... that is the reason why you will get so many different answers from owners...some write something negative and others rave it... |
Does anyone make custom cartridges with the best god damn coils, magnets and diamonds? Brazilian Rosewood cartridge body, please. No, not Indian, not Honduran - Brazilian. I don't want no stones, corals, plastic, metal etc. Wood only for me. Nice box, great reviews, herd instinct, Japanese mistique - right. |
