Why do better MC cartridges cost a fortune?

@rauliruegas - Raul, i followed that thread periodically over the years.
Here's what I plan to do. I am not getting rid of my Airtight Supreme. But, since I have another very good table on which I plan to install a 3012r with detachable headshell, it will make it relatively easy to change cartridges. (Setting VTA quickly is another matter but I will get to that). I will then experiment with a variety of older cartridges including MM/MI. 
I do have the ability to add a second arm to my main table, but that is more involved.
regards,
bill hart

Dear @whart : Year ago and after I started the MM thread in the analog forum J.Carr posted that MM/MI cartridge design has higher distortions than LOMC cartridges.

In those old times and due my high " motivations/emotion " to discover the " new kid in the blok " I really can't understand or attest what J.Carr posted but over the years I found out that he is rigth, the LOMC designs are more faithfully to the recording that the MM ones. Both designs are different and we can expect that both sounds exactly the same, exist a superiority in between but always is fine to own a good MM/MI cartridge and listen to it.   

Time to time you can find out Astatic MF-200 or a B&O MMC2, both are very good performers. Normally almost no one cares about B&O design but is one of the best out there.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @inna : Seems to me that you already have very good answers about the high $$$$ for LOMC cartridges. I have nothing that can justify those high prices. The " problem " will follow be that always exist people to pay for it. This is the real " problem " for the 95% of the audiophiles that can't invest with those " crazy " prices. Such is life.

@whart , I understand that Air Tigth is a " brother " of the My Sonic Labs manufacturer this is that the AT comes as OEm from MSL. I like a lot MSL ones and heard ( not in my system. ) the AT Supreme and is really good too.

As you know tubes is a " forbidden " audio item for me, can't fulfill my MUSIC/audio targets but this is me.
In my experiences and everything the same LOMC cartridges beats overall  MM/MI cartridges . Some people speaks that the LOMC cartridges has not the " coherence and weigth " like the MM ones but this depends mainly on the room/system and tonearm/cartridge set up accuracy levels.

Probably the only advantage behind MM cartridges is that does not needs a high gain active phono stage due to its higher output levels. This is a good thing for system with tubes but if what we want is true high quality levels the LOMC cartridges ( vintage or today ) is the way to go.

Am I saying that MM/MI are not good enough ?, no it's a good alternative and a different kind of sound but not as the LOMC quality levels.

I own several LOMC/MM/MI cartridges that through many years compare d it in between using same analog rig: everything the same. The very best MM/MI are very good and near the LOMC cartridge for a lot less money but all depends on each one MUSIC-sound targets and priorities.

As I said MM/MI is a good alternative, perhaps not for everyday but the ones that over their audio life only listened through LOMC cartridges it's worth to finally give a chance to the MM/MI alternative.
I have to say that there are audiophiles that doing comparisons in between choosed for the MM/MI alternative. Not me but you can try, it can helps as a very good spare unit.

In the same way that exist solid reasons why DD beats BD TT or digital beats analog or SS beats tube technologies there are reasons why the LOMC superiority. Yes, is the fancy high cost alternative, no doubt about.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Miura or early Countach?

Actually, earlier - Islero S, one of 100 made. Same engine as the Miura but in line rather than transverse (and in the case of the Miura with an integral gearbox housing).

Synchronizing 12 Weber throats was enough to drive me to drink (a short trip, I grant you).  Fortunately once done they didn't go out of whack again.

many thanks Henry. I will copy this list for reference when I start playing around with the new/old rig. 
best,
bill hart

analogueseduction.net in the UK appears to be a good place to buy cartridges, many cost less than here. I bought my cartridge there and talked to them before that. They also have some cartridges that I didn't see here, though they still may be sold here too. The Cartridge Man MI cartridges and EMT cartridges, for example. They can't ship Lyra to the US, though.

Halcro- name a few if you don't mind.
 When I get my vintage tabled system up and running, with a removable headshell arm, I have no reluctance in trying a variety of vintage MMs. It will also relieve me of the need for a step up. 
The Airtight was at one point likened to a London/Decca on steroids. I never had the guts to run a London/Decca, despite the raves about it from some owners. But vintage MM or MC- I'm good with as long as there is no damage to the records. Do you get them re-done by someone- or just try to buy ones that still have life?
thanks,
bill hart

Whart,

Halcro- have you compared say the Airtight (not even the Supreme, but the original PC-1) to the comparable Lyra (which at the time, was a Titan i, except for the "limited" production Olympus)?

I've had several Lyras including the Helikon, Titan i and Atlas and my friend Richard, had the Olympus for many years on his Caliburn/Cobra.
The Olympus was nice and the Helikon was listenable without the nervous high-frequency prominence and lack of body and soul that shrouded the others.
I have not had first-hand experience of the Airtights except at Audio Shows.

Is your proposition that a cheap MM is going to sound every bit as good as something in this realm?

No.....my proposition is that a great 'cheap' vintage MM cartridge sounds BETTER than most of the current high-end, high-priced MC cartridges. And as good as the very best vintage MCs I've heard.

I have a few 'current' MM cartridges (including the winner of the Fremer Shootout Audio-Technica 150ANV) and can say quite confidently, that they have generally lost the 'magic' of those MMs created in the Golden Age of analogue.
They can be good....just not great. 
The same story with MC cartridges in my experience....😢

The biggest problem with Ferrari and the likes is not the cost, you need to know how to drive or you are fool and possibly dead real quick. The second problem is that in many areas there is nowhere to drive such a car, even BMW M3 might be too much.
If I was a very rich man I would do the following. I would get that Continuum table with arm and a few different top phono stages and audition many cartridges at different price levels, including vintage. After that I would post my findings here describing the sound of each in great details. Someone among us could do it.

Miura or early Countach?

Yes - very expensive exercise to buy, audition and then sell the ones you didn't like at a discount.

I tend to settle on favourites and hope never to have to replace them.  I am running only two systems now and never want to replace my Koetsu Urushi - nor am I investigating if anything else sounds even better (I'm sur something, somewhere does....).

As for Ferraris, I've owned maybe 75 cars and of those, the only one that ever appreciated significantly was a vintage Lamborghini.  Wish audio gear did as well!

@wspohn - I agree about the difficulty in meaningful comparisons as a consumer; most dealers aren't set up to do that, and few would take the time. The other alternative- even with modestly priced cartridges- is to buy the lot and make the comparisons yourself, but that has obvious downsides even if you are willing to take the time (which I often do with different pressings of the same record): you then have to get rid of the ones you don't want or like, something that doesn't play well in cartridge land-how much of a hit do you take even assuming you only put 50 hours on the cartridge?
I'm interested in what @Halcro has concluded since he has the ability to compare multiple cartridges, presumably using the same arm and turntable, re vintage MM.
I don't subscribe to the most expensive is always the best school, nor do I believe that every "giant killer" is truly comparable to the better piece-- I think you have to listen to the device in question in a controlled setting.
As for Ferraris, no comment. :)

Big deal is that the increasing number of audiophiles cannot afford anything real good new and like second rate citizens have to chase things on a 'flea' market.  

Same in just about any consumer good in a free market economy - sellers charge what they can get.  Complaining about it is like saying it isn't fair that you can't afford a Ferrari or to live in a luxury penthouse.

What irks me about high priced MCs is that it can be almost impossible to make an informed buying decision as you can rarely audition them.  Buying based on price, reputation or even review is as risky as buying a wine you haven't tasted because some git said it was over the top fantastic. Then after you bought it, it turns out that the reviewer's taste is nowhere near the same as yours.

It is hard enough when you can go and listen to a speaker or component, albeit in a different system than the one you want to put it in, but not being able to audition at all can be very expensive Russian roulette! 

Yes, whatever it is vintage is not for everyone. What about Grado Reference, Soundsmith, Audio Note, Clearaudio, Nagaoka ?
Bill, based on your brief description I would've chosen Airtight too, though I do like great pace and dynamics. What I don't like is exaggeration, larger than life presentation.
As Vladimir of Lamm said - You can get incredible bass out of transistor design but that's not how it sounds in reality -. 

Halcro- have you compared say the Airtight (not even the Supreme, but the original PC-1) to the comparable Lyra (which at the time, was a Titan i, except for the "limited" production Olympus)?
I did, on my turntable, tonearm and system, and though the cartridges were comparable in price, they did things differently. The Lyra was by far more dramatic, spectacular highs and impactful bass. The Airtight did nothing dramatic at first blush, but lots more texture and depth to the music; by contrast the Lyra seemed spotlit in the highs. Perhaps that’s a matter of taste and system synergy because I know lot’s of folks who like the later Atlas, which is considered extremely articulate.
Is your proposition that a cheap MM is going to sound every bit as good as something in this realm? (And the cartridges I mentioned are nowhere near the top priced ones these days).
I do know that one manufacturer whose opinion I value said he preferred an old Ortofon to the current high end Ortofons but I’m not sure he was talking about the Anna, though he had both old and new at hand and was playing them on an EMT 927.
PS: I noticed you were talking about "vintage MM/MC." What about current in production MM?

Fremer also appears to confirm that turntable, tonearm and phono stage are all far more important than cartridge. Cartridge must be excellent too, of course.

I won't argue, I don't know.
Michael Fremer must've upset many people with what he said. Even worse, that table and arm are thought by many to be one of the handful of the very best regardless of price.

Inna,
If someone is willing to pay $10,000-$15,000 for a MC cartridge.....the least he would expect (I imagine) would be to be able to instantly identify his precious treasure from the ’riff-raff’.
Imagine his consternation if he can’t......😱
I say he can’t........

Halcro, if you are right it will make me happy, but I would like to hear what other very experienced audiophiles can say. It may also be a problem of defining "better" objectively. As I understand, correct me if I am wrong, no MC can compete with 'best' MMs in terms of coherence and impact.

Why do better MC cartridges cost a fortune?

Why do YOU think they're better?
Just because someone charges $10,000 or $15,000 for a MC cartridge....and some people are happy to pay that.....what makes you think the higher priced cartridge is BETTER....?
I've heard a lot of high-priced MC cartridges and I can tell you that IMO they are NOT better.....
Not only are they not better than the lower-priced MC cartridges.....they are not better than most of the  $200-$600 vintage MM cartridges that I have in my collection. Nor my favourite vintage MCs.,...
Why do you think that in Michael Fremer's infamous 'shootout' of 9 cartridges (8 of them MMs)....the $9,000 Ortofon Anna (the only MC) came fourth behind a bunch of low-priced MM cartridges....?
And that was in the  Continuum Cobra arm on the Continuum Caliburn turntable....👅
This 'myth' about higher priced cartridges and MCs in particular (propagated mostly by Reviewers) is swallowed hollis bolus by a gullible audience at large, who.....generally can't compare side by side, on multiple turntables and multiple arms.....the validity of these reviews.
But neither can the Reviewers......👹 

Well here's a challenge for all those Reviewers (and Audiophiles who wish to claim MC superiority)......
I will pay Business Class airfares from anywhere in the world to Sydney, plus one week's accomodation to undergo a controlled 'blind' test at my place.
The test will have my two turntables with a total of 6 arms and 6 cartridges.
Any challenger can bring one MC cartridge of his choice which will be mounted in one of my six arms.
The other five arms will have a selection of my low-priced vintage MM and MC cartridges plus one $10,000 'current' MC cartridge.
Here's the challenge.......

• Identify the MM from the MC cartridges (twice)
• Identify the high-priced MC from the low-priced vintage MC (twice)
• Identify the challenger's OWN  MC cartridge (twice)
• Match the cartridges to themselves (i.e. identify them)

Here's the chance (Reviewers and Pretenders) to prove your 'Golden Ear' abilities  if you're brave enough.
If you fail.....you'll still have a nice trip to Sydney.
It just won't be free.....🤗

And custom tonearm too, and they should be voiced together. Now that would be worth paying for, I would hope.

Does anyone make custom cartridges with the best god damn coils, magnets and diamonds? Brazilian Rosewood cartridge body, please. No, not Indian, not Honduran - Brazilian. I don't want no stones, corals, plastic, metal etc. Wood only for me.
Nice box, great reviews, herd instinct, Japanese mistique - right.

Hello Whart,
thank you very much :-), yes, all is fine.
Inna,
yes I did. After all those years all I can say is, when I look for something for myself, before I would ask a dealer (or even worse, a distributor) I would walk into a forest to ask a tree .... a much more useful conversation I will have ...
But back to the question about cartridges
You can buy nearly everything from OEM, the only exception is a special made body or diamond cantilever. All other parts are dirt cheap. The main difference is in the amount of coils, what kind of magnets are used and (very important) what kind of diamond is chosen.
The diamonds are also cheap but no manufacturer chooses the best one.
Why should he shorten his profit and when he does, he can not go for an upgraded (higher priced) model.
This game has its own rules. It is not enough when the discriminated Audiophile offers his money to get something serious, no, he still gets something average (with some very, very few exceptions). But in a nice box, wrapped with a great review :-)
Most will never get it because analog reproduction is a chain.... with Arm, cable, energy transfer from cartridge, phono stage and so on .... that is the reason why you will get so many different answers from owners...some write something negative and others rave it... 

@syntax -so nice to see you here. Been a while. I hope you are still having fun. I am! regards,
bill

Syntax, you are right too, but I didn't want to go into this openly, though indirectly I did. 'Audiophile class warfare' is something that we should try and avoid. Yes, if at least half of all audiophiles everywhere stop paying these insane amounts for the cartridges, things would probably get better for most. As for the distributors, that's another interesting story, and it goes far beyond audio and the US. Even French farmers suffer not to mention African miners.
Deaf reviewers... I don't have an impression that most of them are deaf, but if they say everything they really think their livelihood will almost certainly get very insecure. Do you meet many people who are ready for that?

They charge and we gladly pay? And you have to retip or replace it soon enough. Most of them come from Japan. They sure know how to do business, don’t they?

No, the manufacturer is the poor one.
The real winners are those in the following distributor chain and when we go down to the core... your "enemy" is the audiophile next to you who wants to spend more :-)
Supported by deaf reviewers ....

Yeah, this could be interesting dilemma for some. If you have $10k to upgrade your analog front end and your table arm and phono seem just fine but cartridge and isolation could be better, what do you do? Do you spend it all on Herzan active, supercartridge or do 3/7 split and get Minus-K platform and another cartridge? And how can you know in advance? I suppose, you can return the platforms if bought from authorized dealers or directly, though. But not cartridges. The answer to this question is, I think, you have to develop 'audiophile instinct'. It will not always be right but in most cases it will.

Active isolation like the Herzan (or similar from many others including KSI who make Vibraplanes) offers 99% isolation in all six dimensions. Passive such as Vibraplane maxes out at 95% or so and more effective in vertical than horizontal. Also latter requires a compressor for air supply. Cost is 30-40% of active however and certainly will give great results, as will other passive approaches such as Minus-K, do note however that the latter need to be loaded as specified for best results whereas active platforms perform under any load. So, many ways to slay the isolation dragon 🐉 

Herzan looks serious. Swiss things. How do they compare to Vibroplanes?

Now that's the price of a record !
Yeah, electrical power is a never ending struggle. Here, in addition to a very dirty current, voltage fluctuates from 115 to 128. PS Audio Premier does stabilize it and cleans it pretty good, but if it is too bad it spends a lot of energy on itself and the dynamics gets compromized. Still incomparably better than without it. Power cords from the wall to the regenerator make a difference, by the way.
Unpgrading your amps/speakers set-up would be a huge undertaking, that would probably take the entire system to the ultimate level.

@inna-I wasn’t really looking to upgrade cartridges, my comment was simply that the cost of replacing the high end ones was starting to get ridiculous, but as mentioned, I’ve never tried a retip on any of these.

if I were to upgrade anything, it would probably be a wholesale replacement of my horn/woofer array. I like the fact that my Avantgarde mid-horn has no Xover. But we’re talking considerable money, and one possibility would involve buying another pair of Lamms, to bi-amp (which would actually be the least of it). I use the old ML2, which is different than the later ones in some respects, but like it very much.
.
I’ve gotten to the point that I’m past looking for nirvana- my system is pretty dialed in, I went to some lengths to get good electrical power here and I’d rather spend the money on records at this point.
My priorities are to finish the vintage Quad ESL based system and add a digital rig for access to more music. For example, this is an LP that I could not justify:[url]https//www.discogs.com/Leaf-Hound-Growers-Of-Mushroom/release/2625594[/url]
On the other hand, there was an older legitimate CD release that was normally priced.

I did invest in an anti-vibration platform- a large Minus K- when I moved here given structural issues involved in mounting 231 lbs worth of turntable on the second floor of an 1880’s wooden house. It is passive, unlike the Herzan, but it does the job.

@willemj - I’ll need to ask D Karmeli what he does with the old cartridges. I know he has a vast collection that he uses, including Neumann (which is a somewhat unconventional, rare cartridge) and Ortofon SPU (which I believe has the step up built into the headshell).

Looking at all this from a different angle, sometimes you want to upgrade, have a specific amount for this and start thinking what exactly you could upgrade. So it might turn out to be a very expensive cartridge because you can’t upgrade turntable or phono or amps or even cables. It is actually my own current situation. I do $1k upgrade a year, usually just one item, sometimes two. But I have only two more steps for this - one more interconnect and one more power cord. After that I will probably have to switch to 2-3 years cycle unless I am very lucky. And I see no reason to get $1k cartridge, though my phono would still  more or less hold its own. I will wait.

Yeah, probably, that's why I said "generally speaking", this would be possible guidelines.
In any case, I hope that this thread will help some people avoid big and costly mistakes, including the mistakes they might never be aware of because the system will sound better and yet..

Herzan make active isolation platforms that eliminate subsonic interference. They really work with turntables but the cost of entry is $10k.

Unfortunately the sad truth is that at this level every last thing makes a difference so it’s hard to say what is the “last” thing to change 😁

Herzan platform? What's this?.
Yeah, I was talking about $10k cartridge replaced every 1.5-2 years without any big discounts and generous trade-in policies.
Generally speaking, I think $10k - $15k cartridges are really only for those who already did every imaginable upgrade, it is the last touch.

@inna I might argue a $10k cartridge is a better investment than most other pieces of kit

consider you buy one and when you’ve got your 1000 hours or whatever in you retip/rebuild for $6k or get the same $4k discount off the new top of the line, many cartridge manufacturers also offer trade in for comparable cartridges from other lines

if you try the same whenever ARC upgrade their top of the line amps you’ll be out much more - the moment you plug a brand new amp or speaker in you’ve lost 20-30% of its value straight away

the one real downside of cartridges is that it’s really hard to get them reliably on the used market as they do wear so the cost of entry is high ... but once you’re on board it’s not such a problem

now if we really want to discuss the $10k burning a hole in your pocket I’d like to see you compare a $2k cartridge and a Herzan platform under your table with a $12k cartridge and no platform. I’d wager the former would outperform the latter ... 

Bill, if I remember right you have Lamm ML2.2 amps and Avant-Garde speakers, and you use Kubala Sosna cables. If I were you I would definitely wanted to try best Purist Audio and Echole cables. The outcome of this comparizon is unknown, it may be a better move than upgrading the cartridge. Each time, at a much lower level, I upgrade my Purist Audio cables and power cords, my $375 Goldring 1042 MM cartridge sounds better and better. The difference is not slight. Good cartridges have more potential than it may seem, the same with speakers.

To repeat myself - cartridges don't last long if you play them a lot, they are disposable elements in the system. If you buy $10k cartridges in a number of years you will have spent $100k. How does it sound to a reasonable ear, $100k for cartridges?

Rich people are as diverse as the rest. What is often true is that my 10 dollars is their one dollar or less.
Also, not all audiophiles who have great systems are exactly rich. They have been improving their set-ups for many years and eventually might have systems that sound incredible and would cost over $100k if everything was bought new now.
Bill, I heard of Air Tight cartridges. Balanced warm sounding?

The problem with old cartridges is that their suspensions may have dried out.

These are for the rich only!

The rich audio buffs are usually not scientists or engineers, and lack basic technology understanding, to "fine tune" the turntable/arm/ cartridge setup. Their systems rarely have optimal sound quality. They "throw money away" and believe high cost = best.

They go for "snob appeal" to impress other rich friends.

Proper arm/cartridge setup with expensive $1K to $3K, (but not ridiculous) cartridges is all you need for SOTA sound!

There is no rational justification for spending $10K to $15K on a cartridge IMO.

YES I have heard the big buck cartridges FYI.

There is the pretense that there is something (audio quality) which there is not. The analogy is with the listeners/onlookers who sheepishly follow the flock.
Of course there are recordings that are not on cd and only on lp. I still have my turntable for those, but I find I rarely if ever use it. The reality is that streaming services now offer such a wide selection that no private music collection could ever compete. I have a busy job, but if I had time I would digitize all my lp's and just get over with it.

willemj

And yet, none of them are as neutral and reproduce the original as cleanly, with as little distortion, and with as much channel separation as a cd/dvd/bd disc player of a few hundred dollars at most. As I said, such cartridges are the emperor’s new clothes.

If you want to play LPs - and there are many fine LPs that have never made it to CD, or whose original LP sounds better than a CD made from its aged master tape - you’ll need a turntable. A cd/dvd/bd disc player won’t suffice.

You seem to be confused about the fable of the emperor’s new clothes. In the tale, the clothes do not exist. On the other hand, expensive phono cartridges do exist, and they play music. Perhaps that is of no value to you, which is fine. But your analogy shows an ignorance of phono cartridges, or the meaning of the emperor’s tale, or both.

A new Bugatti is not a real Bugatti. :)
Yeah, i’m sure there are some less outrageously priced cartridges that can deliver top tier performance. I had Lyras for a while (the Parnassus with the fancy magnets and a Titan i when it first came out). I gather that the stone bodied Koestu is more neutral than the wood bodied one.
Horses for courses. I like what the Airtight Supreme does- just hate paying the tariff. Fair point that one shouldn’t have to spend 10k dollars to get state of the art. There’s certainly a lot out there- Dynavectors, Benz (though not really available in the states I gather or certain models aren't but correct me if wrong), a whole raft of others- Soundsmith, etc.
As mentioned, I’m planning to experiment with some less costly cartridges once I finish the SP-10 set up in my vintage system.
I know David Karmeli- who posts here (I think) is very fond of a certain era vintage Ortofon SPU. I don’t know if he messes around with retips or simply finds old cartridges that still have life.

And yet, none of them are as neutral and reproduce the original as cleanly, with as little distortion, and with as much channel separation as a cd/dvd/bd disc player of a few hundred dollars at most. As I said, such cartridges are the emperor’s new clothes.

If I were those Japanese cartridge makers I would take the prices much higher, say, $50k for top of the line models. All Japanese makers, they know how to talk to each other. How many would still buy them? Enough, I guess.

Couple of years ago one could get Lyra Delos for $1k or so from the UK. That semed reasonable. As for Sumiko and lesser Koetsu, though I am unfamiliar with them, there is an opinion that they are not really good enough. There is also $1.5k Goldring, which is supposedly acceptable. Kiseki and Transfiguration for about $3.5k would be as high as I ever cared to go. Provided the rest of the analog set-up is up to this level.
Not Bugatti - Koenigsegg, $2million. I think, they make a dozen each year.

High prices have been discussed quite a bit.  And while it is true that top of the line MC cartridges are outrageously expensive, I think there is an exaggeration in the original premise in this thread, that better MC cartridges cost $5k - $10k.

I paid $1650 for my Lyra Delos (now priced at $1995) and I would characterize that as a better cartridge.  Even my $500 Dynavector 10x5 (now $650) was a decent cartridge.

Sumiko makes a $550 and a $1250 cartridge that both get high marks by reviewers.

Sure, we'd all like a system with performance like a Bugatti Veyron, and that would mean a $10k+ phono cartridge, with superlative performance and tons of diminishing returns in the pricing to boot, but my point is, we can have better MC cartridges with better performance at $1,200 - $3,500.  Lyra Kleos & Koetsu Rosewood are both included in that price range.

Anyway, Japanese and some others cartridge makers love audiophiles. And not just cartridge makers. They feed on obsession.
I heard that Accuphase costs half as much or so in Japan, don't know about Kondo Japan and Wavac. Americans can be funny too. How much is D'Agostino Momentum integrated? $35k or so? Do you really think that it sounds better than Gryphon Diablo 300 for $16k? I doubt it, but since I haven't heard either, I would be happy if someone who had commented. To be blunt - this hobby field is full of BS, but this doesn't mean that there is nothing but it.