Why do better MC cartridges cost a fortune?

Why do better MC cartridges cost a fortune?

Why do YOU think they're better?
Just because someone charges $10,000 or $15,000 for a MC cartridge....and some people are happy to pay that.....what makes you think the higher priced cartridge is BETTER....?
I've heard a lot of high-priced MC cartridges and I can tell you that IMO they are NOT better.....
Not only are they not better than the lower-priced MC cartridges.....they are not better than most of the  $200-$600 vintage MM cartridges that I have in my collection. Nor my favourite vintage MCs.,...
Why do you think that in Michael Fremer's infamous 'shootout' of 9 cartridges (8 of them MMs)....the $9,000 Ortofon Anna (the only MC) came fourth behind a bunch of low-priced MM cartridges....?
And that was in the  Continuum Cobra arm on the Continuum Caliburn turntable....👅
This 'myth' about higher priced cartridges and MCs in particular (propagated mostly by Reviewers) is swallowed hollis bolus by a gullible audience at large, who.....generally can't compare side by side, on multiple turntables and multiple arms.....the validity of these reviews.
But neither can the Reviewers......👹 

Well here's a challenge for all those Reviewers (and Audiophiles who wish to claim MC superiority)......
I will pay Business Class airfares from anywhere in the world to Sydney, plus one week's accomodation to undergo a controlled 'blind' test at my place.
The test will have my two turntables with a total of 6 arms and 6 cartridges.
Any challenger can bring one MC cartridge of his choice which will be mounted in one of my six arms.
The other five arms will have a selection of my low-priced vintage MM and MC cartridges plus one $10,000 'current' MC cartridge.
Here's the challenge.......

• Identify the MM from the MC cartridges (twice)
• Identify the high-priced MC from the low-priced vintage MC (twice)
• Identify the challenger's OWN  MC cartridge (twice)
• Match the cartridges to themselves (i.e. identify them)

Here's the chance (Reviewers and Pretenders) to prove your 'Golden Ear' abilities  if you're brave enough.
If you fail.....you'll still have a nice trip to Sydney.
It just won't be free.....🤗

Halcro, if you are right it will make me happy, but I would like to hear what other very experienced audiophiles can say. It may also be a problem of defining "better" objectively. As I understand, correct me if I am wrong, no MC can compete with 'best' MMs in terms of coherence and impact.

Inna,
If someone is willing to pay $10,000-$15,000 for a MC cartridge.....the least he would expect (I imagine) would be to be able to instantly identify his precious treasure from the ’riff-raff’.
Imagine his consternation if he can’t......😱
I say he can’t........

I won't argue, I don't know.
Michael Fremer must've upset many people with what he said. Even worse, that table and arm are thought by many to be one of the handful of the very best regardless of price.

Fremer also appears to confirm that turntable, tonearm and phono stage are all far more important than cartridge. Cartridge must be excellent too, of course.

Halcro- have you compared say the Airtight (not even the Supreme, but the original PC-1) to the comparable Lyra (which at the time, was a Titan i, except for the "limited" production Olympus)?
I did, on my turntable, tonearm and system, and though the cartridges were comparable in price, they did things differently. The Lyra was by far more dramatic, spectacular highs and impactful bass. The Airtight did nothing dramatic at first blush, but lots more texture and depth to the music; by contrast the Lyra seemed spotlit in the highs. Perhaps that’s a matter of taste and system synergy because I know lot’s of folks who like the later Atlas, which is considered extremely articulate.
Is your proposition that a cheap MM is going to sound every bit as good as something in this realm? (And the cartridges I mentioned are nowhere near the top priced ones these days).
I do know that one manufacturer whose opinion I value said he preferred an old Ortofon to the current high end Ortofons but I’m not sure he was talking about the Anna, though he had both old and new at hand and was playing them on an EMT 927.
PS: I noticed you were talking about "vintage MM/MC." What about current in production MM?

Yes, whatever it is vintage is not for everyone. What about Grado Reference, Soundsmith, Audio Note, Clearaudio, Nagaoka ?
Bill, based on your brief description I would've chosen Airtight too, though I do like great pace and dynamics. What I don't like is exaggeration, larger than life presentation.
As Vladimir of Lamm said - You can get incredible bass out of transistor design but that's not how it sounds in reality -. 

Big deal is that the increasing number of audiophiles cannot afford anything real good new and like second rate citizens have to chase things on a 'flea' market.  

Same in just about any consumer good in a free market economy - sellers charge what they can get.  Complaining about it is like saying it isn't fair that you can't afford a Ferrari or to live in a luxury penthouse.

What irks me about high priced MCs is that it can be almost impossible to make an informed buying decision as you can rarely audition them.  Buying based on price, reputation or even review is as risky as buying a wine you haven't tasted because some git said it was over the top fantastic. Then after you bought it, it turns out that the reviewer's taste is nowhere near the same as yours.

It is hard enough when you can go and listen to a speaker or component, albeit in a different system than the one you want to put it in, but not being able to audition at all can be very expensive Russian roulette! 

@wspohn - I agree about the difficulty in meaningful comparisons as a consumer; most dealers aren't set up to do that, and few would take the time. The other alternative- even with modestly priced cartridges- is to buy the lot and make the comparisons yourself, but that has obvious downsides even if you are willing to take the time (which I often do with different pressings of the same record): you then have to get rid of the ones you don't want or like, something that doesn't play well in cartridge land-how much of a hit do you take even assuming you only put 50 hours on the cartridge?
I'm interested in what @Halcro has concluded since he has the ability to compare multiple cartridges, presumably using the same arm and turntable, re vintage MM.
I don't subscribe to the most expensive is always the best school, nor do I believe that every "giant killer" is truly comparable to the better piece-- I think you have to listen to the device in question in a controlled setting.
As for Ferraris, no comment. :)

Yes - very expensive exercise to buy, audition and then sell the ones you didn't like at a discount.

I tend to settle on favourites and hope never to have to replace them.  I am running only two systems now and never want to replace my Koetsu Urushi - nor am I investigating if anything else sounds even better (I'm sur something, somewhere does....).

As for Ferraris, I've owned maybe 75 cars and of those, the only one that ever appreciated significantly was a vintage Lamborghini.  Wish audio gear did as well!

Miura or early Countach?

The biggest problem with Ferrari and the likes is not the cost, you need to know how to drive or you are fool and possibly dead real quick. The second problem is that in many areas there is nowhere to drive such a car, even BMW M3 might be too much.
If I was a very rich man I would do the following. I would get that Continuum table with arm and a few different top phono stages and audition many cartridges at different price levels, including vintage. After that I would post my findings here describing the sound of each in great details. Someone among us could do it.

Whart,

Halcro- have you compared say the Airtight (not even the Supreme, but the original PC-1) to the comparable Lyra (which at the time, was a Titan i, except for the "limited" production Olympus)?

I've had several Lyras including the Helikon, Titan i and Atlas and my friend Richard, had the Olympus for many years on his Caliburn/Cobra.
The Olympus was nice and the Helikon was listenable without the nervous high-frequency prominence and lack of body and soul that shrouded the others.
I have not had first-hand experience of the Airtights except at Audio Shows.

Is your proposition that a cheap MM is going to sound every bit as good as something in this realm?

No.....my proposition is that a great 'cheap' vintage MM cartridge sounds BETTER than most of the current high-end, high-priced MC cartridges. And as good as the very best vintage MCs I've heard.

I have a few 'current' MM cartridges (including the winner of the Fremer Shootout Audio-Technica 150ANV) and can say quite confidently, that they have generally lost the 'magic' of those MMs created in the Golden Age of analogue.
They can be good....just not great. 
The same story with MC cartridges in my experience....😢

Halcro- name a few if you don't mind.
 When I get my vintage tabled system up and running, with a removable headshell arm, I have no reluctance in trying a variety of vintage MMs. It will also relieve me of the need for a step up. 
The Airtight was at one point likened to a London/Decca on steroids. I never had the guts to run a London/Decca, despite the raves about it from some owners. But vintage MM or MC- I'm good with as long as there is no damage to the records. Do you get them re-done by someone- or just try to buy ones that still have life?
thanks,
bill hart

analogueseduction.net in the UK appears to be a good place to buy cartridges, many cost less than here. I bought my cartridge there and talked to them before that. They also have some cartridges that I didn't see here, though they still may be sold here too. The Cartridge Man MI cartridges and EMT cartridges, for example. They can't ship Lyra to the US, though.

many thanks Henry. I will copy this list for reference when I start playing around with the new/old rig. 
best,
bill hart

Miura or early Countach?

Actually, earlier - Islero S, one of 100 made. Same engine as the Miura but in line rather than transverse (and in the case of the Miura with an integral gearbox housing).

Synchronizing 12 Weber throats was enough to drive me to drink (a short trip, I grant you).  Fortunately once done they didn't go out of whack again.

Dear @inna : Seems to me that you already have very good answers about the high $$$$ for LOMC cartridges. I have nothing that can justify those high prices. The " problem " will follow be that always exist people to pay for it. This is the real " problem " for the 95% of the audiophiles that can't invest with those " crazy " prices. Such is life.

@whart , I understand that Air Tigth is a " brother " of the My Sonic Labs manufacturer this is that the AT comes as OEm from MSL. I like a lot MSL ones and heard ( not in my system. ) the AT Supreme and is really good too.

As you know tubes is a " forbidden " audio item for me, can't fulfill my MUSIC/audio targets but this is me.
In my experiences and everything the same LOMC cartridges beats overall  MM/MI cartridges . Some people speaks that the LOMC cartridges has not the " coherence and weigth " like the MM ones but this depends mainly on the room/system and tonearm/cartridge set up accuracy levels.

Probably the only advantage behind MM cartridges is that does not needs a high gain active phono stage due to its higher output levels. This is a good thing for system with tubes but if what we want is true high quality levels the LOMC cartridges ( vintage or today ) is the way to go.

Am I saying that MM/MI are not good enough ?, no it's a good alternative and a different kind of sound but not as the LOMC quality levels.

I own several LOMC/MM/MI cartridges that through many years compare d it in between using same analog rig: everything the same. The very best MM/MI are very good and near the LOMC cartridge for a lot less money but all depends on each one MUSIC-sound targets and priorities.

As I said MM/MI is a good alternative, perhaps not for everyday but the ones that over their audio life only listened through LOMC cartridges it's worth to finally give a chance to the MM/MI alternative.
I have to say that there are audiophiles that doing comparisons in between choosed for the MM/MI alternative. Not me but you can try, it can helps as a very good spare unit.

In the same way that exist solid reasons why DD beats BD TT or digital beats analog or SS beats tube technologies there are reasons why the LOMC superiority. Yes, is the fancy high cost alternative, no doubt about.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @whart : Year ago and after I started the MM thread in the analog forum J.Carr posted that MM/MI cartridge design has higher distortions than LOMC cartridges.

In those old times and due my high " motivations/emotion " to discover the " new kid in the blok " I really can't understand or attest what J.Carr posted but over the years I found out that he is rigth, the LOMC designs are more faithfully to the recording that the MM ones. Both designs are different and we can expect that both sounds exactly the same, exist a superiority in between but always is fine to own a good MM/MI cartridge and listen to it.   

Time to time you can find out Astatic MF-200 or a B&O MMC2, both are very good performers. Normally almost no one cares about B&O design but is one of the best out there.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

@rauliruegas - Raul, i followed that thread periodically over the years.
Here's what I plan to do. I am not getting rid of my Airtight Supreme. But, since I have another very good table on which I plan to install a 3012r with detachable headshell, it will make it relatively easy to change cartridges. (Setting VTA quickly is another matter but I will get to that). I will then experiment with a variety of older cartridges including MM/MI. 
I do have the ability to add a second arm to my main table, but that is more involved.
regards,
bill hart