Why do better MC cartridges cost a fortune?


I mean $5k - $10k for a piece of what? I can understand $10k for a turntable but for a tonearm or cartridge?
They charge and we gladly pay? And you have to retip or replace it soon enough. Most of them come from Japan. They sure know how to do business, don't they?
inna

Showing 10 responses by whart

From what i gather you can buy direct from Japan for those made there and the price is not much different than the retailer here pays. You don’t get a warranty from the company by doing so, since they are gray goods, but I know people who save a lot of money doing this with high end cartridges.
I hate the fact that the big league cartridges are often $10k plus.
One theory- I certainly haven’t been able to prove it--is that if you buy a very expensive arm, you can get away with a lesser cartridge--e.g. that SAT? which retails for 32k dollars? Hell, that’s only the cost of two cartridges and a ’good’ arm.
There is a mystique to these things- built by hand by ancient Japanese, miniature winding techniques, exotic wood and stone bodies, etc.
I like what the Airtights sound like on my system, so I’m on my second one- the Supreme- no doubt when that goes, I’ll ramp up a step.
Never tried to have one ’retipped’ but may do so at some point- then again, when there’s something "better," why go backwards?
There’s a lot to vintage that I like but vintage cartridges make me wary.
One thing I’m interested in doing, when I finish my vintage set up and install an SME 3012r, is trying a whole range of less expensive cartridges- from the SPU to the wooden Grado, etc.

PS: the really galling thing is that they are degrading consumables that have to be replaced. Tubes are the same, and sometimes expensive, but generally, cheaper even for some of the better NOS ones. A piece of gear, like the turntable or tonearm, amp, etc. can last a lifetime. Speakers, maybe not so long, but there are refurbishment possibilities for those, as well as vintage amps. 

A new Bugatti is not a real Bugatti. :)
Yeah, i’m sure there are some less outrageously priced cartridges that can deliver top tier performance. I had Lyras for a while (the Parnassus with the fancy magnets and a Titan i when it first came out). I gather that the stone bodied Koestu is more neutral than the wood bodied one.
Horses for courses. I like what the Airtight Supreme does- just hate paying the tariff. Fair point that one shouldn’t have to spend 10k dollars to get state of the art. There’s certainly a lot out there- Dynavectors, Benz (though not really available in the states I gather or certain models aren't but correct me if wrong), a whole raft of others- Soundsmith, etc.
As mentioned, I’m planning to experiment with some less costly cartridges once I finish the SP-10 set up in my vintage system.
I know David Karmeli- who posts here (I think) is very fond of a certain era vintage Ortofon SPU. I don’t know if he messes around with retips or simply finds old cartridges that still have life.
@inna-I wasn’t really looking to upgrade cartridges, my comment was simply that the cost of replacing the high end ones was starting to get ridiculous, but as mentioned, I’ve never tried a retip on any of these.

if I were to upgrade anything, it would probably be a wholesale replacement of my horn/woofer array. I like the fact that my Avantgarde mid-horn has no Xover. But we’re talking considerable money, and one possibility would involve buying another pair of Lamms, to bi-amp (which would actually be the least of it). I use the old ML2, which is different than the later ones in some respects, but like it very much.
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I’ve gotten to the point that I’m past looking for nirvana- my system is pretty dialed in, I went to some lengths to get good electrical power here and I’d rather spend the money on records at this point.
My priorities are to finish the vintage Quad ESL based system and add a digital rig for access to more music. For example, this is an LP that I could not justify:[url]https//www.discogs.com/Leaf-Hound-Growers-Of-Mushroom/release/2625594[/url]
On the other hand, there was an older legitimate CD release that was normally priced.

I did invest in an anti-vibration platform- a large Minus K- when I moved here given structural issues involved in mounting 231 lbs worth of turntable on the second floor of an 1880’s wooden house. It is passive, unlike the Herzan, but it does the job.

@willemj - I’ll need to ask D Karmeli what he does with the old cartridges. I know he has a vast collection that he uses, including Neumann (which is a somewhat unconventional, rare cartridge) and Ortofon SPU (which I believe has the step up built into the headshell).
@syntax -so nice to see you here. Been a while. I hope you are still having fun. I am! regards,
bill
Halcro- have you compared say the Airtight (not even the Supreme, but the original PC-1) to the comparable Lyra (which at the time, was a Titan i, except for the "limited" production Olympus)?
I did, on my turntable, tonearm and system, and though the cartridges were comparable in price, they did things differently. The Lyra was by far more dramatic, spectacular highs and impactful bass. The Airtight did nothing dramatic at first blush, but lots more texture and depth to the music; by contrast the Lyra seemed spotlit in the highs. Perhaps that’s a matter of taste and system synergy because I know lot’s of folks who like the later Atlas, which is considered extremely articulate.
Is your proposition that a cheap MM is going to sound every bit as good as something in this realm? (And the cartridges I mentioned are nowhere near the top priced ones these days).
I do know that one manufacturer whose opinion I value said he preferred an old Ortofon to the current high end Ortofons but I’m not sure he was talking about the Anna, though he had both old and new at hand and was playing them on an EMT 927.
PS: I noticed you were talking about "vintage MM/MC." What about current in production MM?
@wspohn - I agree about the difficulty in meaningful comparisons as a consumer; most dealers aren't set up to do that, and few would take the time. The other alternative- even with modestly priced cartridges- is to buy the lot and make the comparisons yourself, but that has obvious downsides even if you are willing to take the time (which I often do with different pressings of the same record): you then have to get rid of the ones you don't want or like, something that doesn't play well in cartridge land-how much of a hit do you take even assuming you only put 50 hours on the cartridge?
I'm interested in what @Halcro has concluded since he has the ability to compare multiple cartridges, presumably using the same arm and turntable, re vintage MM.
I don't subscribe to the most expensive is always the best school, nor do I believe that every "giant killer" is truly comparable to the better piece-- I think you have to listen to the device in question in a controlled setting.
As for Ferraris, no comment. :)
Halcro- name a few if you don't mind.
 When I get my vintage tabled system up and running, with a removable headshell arm, I have no reluctance in trying a variety of vintage MMs. It will also relieve me of the need for a step up. 
The Airtight was at one point likened to a London/Decca on steroids. I never had the guts to run a London/Decca, despite the raves about it from some owners. But vintage MM or MC- I'm good with as long as there is no damage to the records. Do you get them re-done by someone- or just try to buy ones that still have life?
thanks,
bill hart
many thanks Henry. I will copy this list for reference when I start playing around with the new/old rig. 
best,
bill hart
@rauliruegas - Raul, i followed that thread periodically over the years.
Here's what I plan to do. I am not getting rid of my Airtight Supreme. But, since I have another very good table on which I plan to install a 3012r with detachable headshell, it will make it relatively easy to change cartridges. (Setting VTA quickly is another matter but I will get to that). I will then experiment with a variety of older cartridges including MM/MI. 
I do have the ability to add a second arm to my main table, but that is more involved.
regards,
bill hart