This is more of a grouse than anything because I know the molding process won't ever be perfect. Still, here we are in the 21st century in the midst of a vinyl revival. Artists get it and are trying to satisfy us geeks with tasty pressings.
Cases in point are Bennett & Gaga's "Cheek to Cheek" and Lennox' "Nostalgia." Ordered both of them in (live in the sticks so no local source) and one dished, the other warped. Neither are unplayable, but both conditions are audible. Disappointing to say the least on such outstanding efforts.
The same week they arrived, I got copies of Hampton's "Silver Vibes" (mono) and Mendes' "Look Around" used at a swap meet. Perfectly flat with outstanding fidelity, especially considering their age.
Many of my "not" Golden-era pressings from the mid-70s through late-80s also lived up to expectations when I got them home. Many more did not, and that's why I ended up jumping on the CD bandwagon with a Sony CDP-101 in 1983.
In 2015, my digital playback deck is about 1000% better, CDs are better, SACDs are even better still, HD downloads can be superb, but still none of them best vinyl at its best. Unless it's warped.
We have the technology, know better and can better control the process. So, what is up with the warp thing? Is it laziness, budget or what?!?
For $50, you bought it new and can return it. I have purchased some new re-issues, on the odd occasion, that sound bad compared to the originals, but none have been seriously warped. Harder to return them for poor sound quality.
"Here's a heartening story for the OP : I often accumulate new LPs but don't play them with the intention of getting them cleaned first. Yesterday I took a chance and played one that had been stored, uncleaned from new since 2013. Opening it for the first time, it was "ruler flat", no discernible warps. Hole and label registration were very good. The LP played as if it had just been scrupulously cleaned. Noise floor was inky black. Transient peaks tracked perfectly and cleanly throughout the entire record. This 180g was a triumph of LP manufacture that harked back to the halcyon days of the 70s & 80s when no one had even heard of MRA and uncleaned LPs bought new still sound perfect today."
Emboldened by my own experience (above) I've started playing new LPs without cleaning them. After warming up the stylus on a 2nd-hand LP, the next two that I tried were "For Your Pleasure" (Roxy Music), 1x180g LP, and "The Raven That Refused To Sing" (Steve Wilson), 2x180g LPs. To my pleasant surprise all three of them gave the same result as above. Each had a nice glossy black patina. I paid particular attention to the quiet/silent passages on the Steve Wilson because it had a bit more dynamic contrast than the other album. Even though I listen at levels of 85db or so - measured at a distance of 5-6m there were no clicks or pops just inky blackness. As a double-check I stepped into the near field during quiet sections and got the same result. The run-ins and run-outs were also smooth and untroubled.
I sense the beginning of a grand experiment to see how many new, uncleaned, LPs I can play & obtain such gratifying results from before I crash-and-burn on an MRA-riven one! ;^)
..To elaborate further you can use the VTA calculation/rule-of-thumb promoted by MF & others to work out roughly how much of an increase will occur due to the height of the warp...
(As a rough "guesstimate" you could be looking at a few hundredths of a gram or more, so in theory it could push the suspension slightly beyond the cart's Specification)
Dear Ketchup, Although I'm not a mechanical engineer it's an effect that relates to the mechanics of the tonearm design and the position/height of the pivot relative to the stylus? An analogy I use to help me guess which way the force increases is what happens when a tonearm is balanced.
If you balance the arm then briefly push the "stylus end" downwards the arm will react with a restorative force which eventually restores the arm upwards back into a balanced horizontal position. (i.e. analogous to less VTF). By the same token if you lifted the "stylus end" then released it would fall due to a similar restorative force, eventually settling in the manner of a damped oscillation. (Otherwise the arm would defy gravity and stay exactly where you released it?)
(I believe) the behaviour is the opposite of what you'd expect if you viewed a declined or inclined tonearm playing an LP? Typically, warps encourage increased rather than decreased VTF.
Qualified M/Eng's might volunteer to offer their insights. ;^) Cheers,
Your "dynamic changes in VTF" are what TTW and I referred to as suspension movement... I think! Maybe you're talking about something different, such as the platter slowing down as the stylus goes up the hill due to an increase in friction between the stylus and the LP due to an apparent increase in tracking force and the platter speeding up as the stylus goes down the hill due to a decrease in friction due to a reduction in apparent tracking force. I don't know what you meant, I'm just thinking of other ways that warps can mess up the sound.
...Not to mention dynamic changes in VTF as it rides the warp (depending on the arm) ;^)
Funny thing is, although we can easily detect small, consistent changes of VTA, our ears seem to ignore them more when dealing with warped discs... (Or perhaps it's just subconscious "denial" ;^)
TTW, it's not just the movement of the suspension system that causes a change in SRA when playing a warped record. Even if the suspension didn't move at all, SRA would change as a cart tracked a warped record since the record surface is not horizontal as with a flat record, but angled one way as the cartridge goes up the hill and angled the other way as the cartridge goes down the hill. The tonearm angle also changes when going up the hill and down the hill which adds more changes in SRA. So, all three things add up and change SRA when tracking warps: The angle of the record surface, the angle of the tonearm, and the angle of the stylus as the suspension deals with the warps (there is more force on the styles/suspension when going up the hill and less force on the stylus/suspension when going down the hill).
Does any one recognize the fact that the SRA is always changing as you play a warped record?
On a true high end turntable one can hear warps very easily, there is a change in sound (SRA) as it rides up then down and compresses the stylus, it is acting as a suspension system.
Take the warp away and the cartridge WILL track to groove very much more effectively is simple physics.
Let the stylus read the groove and any cartridge can perform a lot better.
This is more and more prevalent with heavier cartridge down forces...
A 180g record, while offering no advantages (except marketing, perhaps) requires more time to cool down. Failure to allow sufficient time for cooling down seems to be a major cause of warping.
Actually, if most of your records are 120g or so, 180g records are a disadvantage for some who are scrupulous about their SRA. More adjustment.
Lowrider57: Your post was my impression. I felt that quite a lot of the warps were due to taking the lp off the press too soon. Your post is a similar finding.
Not necessarily. There are many variables involved. The wider wall stock will reduce the pressures required to make the puck which can result in lower internal stresses so it helps in that regard but the more plastic the more shrink which as you state could make things worse. I have no direct experience with how these to countervailing influences effect records.
Complex finite analysis models are used to predict these things but they are only so accurate. There is no substitute for prototyping the mold and making actual parts to get the best result.
So WPC is it safe to assume that a heavier 180g record will potentially warp more than a 120g due to there simply being more material which could pull in multiple directions ?
Let's face the truth, you will find always AND everywhere expanations why this or that is the way it is... forget it. You can sum it up in one sentence today: No clue from anything. When the plants closed in the 90's all the know how was gone, too. Those who knew something lost their job, retired or looked for a different work. With the comeback of vinyl everyone was hired who was able to recognize a record two out of three tries.
The record labels and the pressing plants all say that demand is so high for manufacturing vinyl that their orders are backed up. There was a thread on Steve Hoffman, I believe, where somebody stated that the cooling stage had been shortened as one way to speed up the process. I'm sure there are other areas where vinyl production specs don't measure up to the original days of record cutting. Especially quality control as previously mentioned.
Lowrider, I am certain your are correct. Bad manufacturing practices just make all the problems I have discussed even worse.
06-03-15: Moonglum Given your level of insight, perhaps you are the man to ask about MRA?
I am not familiar with MRA's quality issues but what you describe (if I had to guess) is probably more related to bad practices.
WPC, Very helpful information. Scary to think that the LPs are warping in their sleeves for reasons other than gravity/heat(!)
Given your level of insight, perhaps you are the man to ask about MRA? Any idea why there appear to be such severe differences in different samples of 180g vinyl? Some appear to exude very little and can be played "straight out of the bag" while some are real stinkers and are more akin to trying to plow a field :( Is it just bad chemistry?? ;^)
Bdp24 New LPs are warped either because they were removed from the LP stamper before they had cooled sufficiently, or because they were not transported and stored properly after they left the pressing plant, or both.
The record labels and the pressing plants all say that demand is so high for manufacturing vinyl that their orders are backed up. There was a thread on Steve Hoffman, I believe, where somebody stated that the cooling stage had been shortened as one way to speed up the process. I'm sure there are other areas where vinyl production specs don't measure up to the original days of record cutting. Especially quality control as previously mentioned.
On a personal note, I returned "Mothership" 3 times to Amazon all with the same problem...a clicking sound thruout side one. It would seem an entire batch of product was shipped out w/o being checked.
" A small percentage will warp down the road because the molecules in that particular shot of material happened to all have lengths at one end of the distribution range (be it long or short) which completely changes the rheology of the flow of the material which changes the internal stresses."
Makes a lot of sense as far as new vinyl or the original cutting days.
I did not mean to imply that very flat records aren't possible, in fact, by far the majority of records produced now and back in the day are flat. I was trying to explain the challenges involved. Molecular weight distribution at the end of the bell curve create the problem. As said, longer cycles and modern machines will improve the odds. In addition, using well maintained older machines and processing techniques that minimize oxidation and hydrolysis (which break molecular chains further exacerbating molecular weight variation) can improve the likelihood of a precision outcome. Finally, a 100% QC inspection process will obviously eliminate those warped records which occur when initially produced (but those aren't the problem)
I am certain some record suppliers do a better job than others but zero defect production is much more difficult than Bdp24 implies. Some records still warp even when left in the press long enough to come out flat and when packaged and stored properly . A small percentage will warp down the road because the molecules in that particular shot of material happened to all have lengths at one end of the distribution range (be it long or short) which completely changes the rheology of the flow of the material which changes the internal stresses. They go into a sleeve perfectly flat and change in the days and weeks to come.
This is an entirely different challenge than faced by manufacturers in the metals businesses (machining, casting, edm, etc.).
Perhaps I'm missing something, but I own many, many a flat record, some decades' old. Unless the polymerization process is a brand new phenomenon, which it shouldn't be, the thread question still stands and WPC's explanation is an interesting piece of information, but not much more than that. I think Bdp24 hit the nail on the head 2 months ago.
An inherent outgrowth of the polymerization process is that each individual polymer chain has a different molecular weight (chain length). When the PVC pucks are formed (before the record stamping) they are created from small plastic pellets which are melted with heat to form the disk.
When the plastic melts it expands. When the plastic re-solidifies it shrinks an-isotropiclally (different amounts in different directions) due to the viscosity variations caused by the molecular weight (polymer chain legth) differences. This variation in shrink by direction causes warp. Some of the warp occurs initially but some will occur over time as the record sees elevated temperatures that cause the internal stresses (caused by the variation in shrink in different directions) to relieve themselves.
Even though the record business is run on antiquated equipment, all of the above challenges are faced by the highest precision plastics companies in the world. While improvements could be made through more modern equipment, longer cycle times, etc., no one will ever be able to make a perfectly flat record that stays flat it's entire life until constant molecular weights are achieved in the initial polymerization process.
I've also been told that venders have to pay for the cost of a return in this new vinyl world. I'll bet a company with the "buying power" of Amazon doesn't eat these costs and returns them to their distributor.
In the good old vinyl days, you would return an LP to a store and usually get an apology. Then the owner/employee would inspect another copy to make sure it didn't have the same defect. Oh, the good old days.
Lowrider: From my experience in trying to return, dealers like Acoustic Sounds would tell me that they have to "eat" those costs. That's why they won't allow a "second" return for the same item, which is often necessary. (This is after the fact that, we, the consumer, have to pay return shipping!) This is one reason I have shifted my lp buying to Amazon quite a bit, (Also, I own a Vinyl Flat)... no hassle/paid returns. If I could only own a company where the consumer, on an ongoing basis, is more than willing to buy defective merchandise and pay for it's return, only to have the return come in defective! No, wait, I wouldn't feel right about that. That's why. I have a conscious.
It's certainly factored into the cost of doing business. A standard royalty deduction of up to 20% (called "breakage fees") comes out of the artist's pocket.
Warped records used to be a problem for me with various Japanese and European tables until I started with the Linn Axis back in the mid-80s. It tracks almost everything silently. Have had no casue for concern though I know my records cannot be any less warped now then they were 30 years ago. Probably more. Its part of the record aging process. Some are better preserved and age better than others, like Jim Palmer. :^)
Is that an Analogue vs Digital question? That's an even bigger Pandora's Box ;^)
Personally I don't pay any attention to whether the LP is warped or not. It's very uncommon for warps to be troublesome. The last time I saw such an occurrence was in a demo featuring an SME V. When it reached the middle of the playing side the edge of the warp clipped the arm, throwing it up in the air to land with an Armaggedon like impact that sent shockwaves through the room. I thought we were under attack! Then it re-enacted that impact repeatedly as if in a locked groove...
Also recall Bob Graham had a trick which involved placing a stack of cards under one edge of the LP during play to prove that unipivots can indeed track severely warped discs without de-stabilising. Quite impressive!
Damped vs undamped is a Pandora's box. The best (only?) way to action TTW's suggestion is to own a vacuum T/T which clamps the disc over it's entire surface area. This effectively rules out 99.999% of turntable owners. Decades ago the major argument against clamping was that it actively stresses the vinyl during play.
FWIW with my current mass damped T/T, I'm firmly a member of the undamped brigade.
Here's a heartening story for the OP : I often accumulate new LPs but don't play them with the intention of getting them cleaned first. Yesterday I took a chance and played one that had been stored, uncleaned from new since 2013. Opening it for the first time, it was "ruler flat", no discernible warps. Hole and label registration were very good. The LP played as if it had just been scrupulously cleaned. Noise floor was inky black. Transient peaks tracked perfectly and cleanly throughout the entire record. This 180g was a triumph of LP manufacture that harked back to the halcyon days of the 70s & 80s when no one had even heard of MRA and uncleaned LPs bought new still sound perfect today.
Most records sound 100% better when you are able to stop the record from vibrating and the stylus will have a much better chance of reading the groove details.
A record is too light to damp itself and does resonate, sound stage and openness is created from a well read record groove and nothing else.
Warped or not, records should be held flat and damped to sound superb, does not matter what table you have.
Apologies to Raymonda, I certainly did not mean to imply that you were making things up. Sorry you've had a problem with warps. My only point is that I have not had such problems. I purchase about 10 "new" LPs per year; maybe you buy many more than I do. Last year I bought the Beatles set. That's 14 LPs, I think, in one purchase. I have some beefs around sound quality, but no warps.
Cool Raymonda, The ring will work with any center clamp and please note that you cannot flatten a record (on both sides) with a reflex clamp, it will do one side that the warp raises in the center but flip the record and it cannot work so well.
Get an outer ring one time and every record will sound better new or old a great investment, especially with the price of high end vinyl. Cheers
I am not making up anything and speak the truth from my experience. Also, if you read my post....I do return them but then I get another with issues. This is a problem I've noticed 5 hat has increased with frequency over the past 16 months, or so.
You guys must live under a cloud. I don't buy a whole lot of new vinyl, but I cannot recall receiving a warped or dished LP in the last 5-10 years. So, first of all, may I posit that the problem is exaggerated as regards frequency? At least that's the way it seems. BUT, if I did receive a warped or dished LP, I would immediately wrap it back up, contact the vendor, and inform him that I was returning the LP for refund or replacement. Send it back, guys! Don't try to make it work with weights and such; you should not have to do that. You paid for a NEW LP. Sheesh.
Don't these companies notice the high rate of defective returns? Or is it factored into the cost of doing business. Clearly, they're not going to change their process.
Does anybody know what Steve Hoffman has to say regarding the high number of poor quality vinyl being released?
04-01-15: Mapman NEw vinyl is a big cash grab IMHO. I don't understand why people would subject themselves to it, especially those who remember the golden days of vinyl.
There are many re-releases that are very desirable for analog audiophiles, especially the younger ones like myself. I see many re-issues done by Kevin Gray or Steve Hoffman using the analog tapes as the source, which are hard to resist. For example, Kevin Gray's remastering of Kate Bush "The Sensual World" is simply superb, much better than the already great-sounding original. It's a must-have for any Kate Bush fan. Too bad that such tremendous efforts are wasted by the shoddy pressing jobs.
NEw vinyl is a big cash grab IMHO. I don't understand why people would subject themselves to it, especially those who remember the golden days of vinyl.
Just bought two new vinyl albums yesterday. Nora Jones and Diana Krall. Nora's album is an 180 gram album and slightly warped with some pressing, surface noise but not too bad. The other is my second try at Diana Krall's Wall Flower, which sounds fantastic......very quiet.....but terribly dished and some surface noise on side 4. I can make them playable with my center and ring clamp but not completely flat and it requires extra work from my cartridge. This was the same issue as my first copy, however, side 4 of the first copy was unlistenable.
So, 2 albums and both were not at the standard they should be. Back in the 70's and 80's I never had this type of consistent problems with albums. I'll keep these albums instead of returning them, since I bought them while visiting a city 75 miles away. If they were purchased locally they would be returned....yet again.
Because of this posting I think I might actually start making a spread sheet indicating where the albums were pressed, problems with the vinyl and return rate. To say the least, I find all this a very sad commentary on the state of affairs of new vinyl.
From Record Industries Europe's largest pressing plant.
The records are transported by an assembly-line to a robotised storage system (the collator) where they will cool down for approximately 3 hours for 125 grams records and a overnight (at least 8 hours) for 180 grams records. After the cooling down period the records are ready for packaging
Case in point: A NOS RCA reissue copy of a Broadway play originally recorded in 1964 and pressed in 1974, wafer thin and flexible, purchased from Georgia and delivered to Ohio during the deepest of February's deep-freezes, flat. Still had the original price sticker from whatever out-of-business retailer and has gone through who-knows-how-many hands.
A good example of the the golden age of record pressing. Records did not come from the plant warped as they do today. LPs weren't always perfect, but the quality control was tight and the Cutters and line workers were craftsmen.
It's true that today's record plants are backed up with heavy volume, but I also believe this is a new generation of worker who can't quickly spot a defect on the vinyl before it is shipped out.
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