Why are audiophiles perceived as being wackos?

Let me guess, Amish, right?

Claims for expensive audiophile systems often have nothing to back them up except marketing hype and people’s opinions. That is at least a bit suspicious wouldn’t you say? 

Cars, boats etc. it’s not hard to quantify what makes some better than others like is often the case with expensive audio toys.

There are some wires out there that go for the price of some cars. Perfectly normal......

"People I speak to are always in awe at the amount I spend on equipment, vinyl and SACDs."

I think it happens to all here. However, I think that the bar is not set very high. Thousand dollars at most? Yet, so many people have the biggest and baddest iPhones. Priorities, I guess.

People I speak to are always in awe at the amount I spend on equipment, vinyl and SACDs. I have a two systems with excellent equipment - and I've given a ton of equipment to my three sons.  I have roughly 2000 CDs/SACDs and 1000 LPs.  If you figure out the cost of the equipment combined with the cost of the media, it's into six figures.  People - even wealthy ones - have a hard time believing the money end of it.  They obviously don't appreciate the hours of enjoyment the music has brought to my family and me.  

People I speak to are always in awe at the amount I spend on equipment, vinyl and SACDs. I have a two systems with excellent equipment - and I've given a ton of equipment to my three sons.  I have roughly 2000 CDs/SACDs and 1000 LPs.  If you figure out the cost of the equipment combined with the cost of the media, it's into six figures.  People - even wealthy ones - have a hard time believing the money end of it.  They obviously don't appreciate the hours of enjoyment the music has brought to my family and me.  

I hope you are referring to a town in Montana .....

Of course we can’t rule out that it was his cologne, perhaps the bold scent of Afternoon in Butte. 🤠

millercarbon
That’s even the comment someone left on my system page, that he walked in the room and immediately had the feeling of being someplace special. The same comment was made by a woman the first time she sat in a 911, that she felt it was something special. People have been caught more than once staring at my watch. Captivated and puzzled at the same time, because it does say Seiko yet they can see with their own eyes it clearly is no Seiko. Its not. Its a Grand Seiko. Its special.

>>>>>No, millercarbon, 🔜 you’re 🔙 special! 🤗

The Covid-19 virus doesn't care about your politics or paranoia one iota...you have a clear choice to either do what you can to avoid it (luckily we know how to do that), or get out there in a crowd and possibly suffer with a deadly disease, spread it around to others, and eventually wonder while a tube is being shoved down your throat or knowing that visit to Grandma killed her, perhaps I should have been a little more careful?

teajay :

I have been pursuing this wonderful hobby of high end stereo equipment and music for almost 30 years. I do consider myself a passionate audiophile who loves to listen to music on a daily basis. The reason for this post is because it has been my experience that the great majority of people who do not pursue this hobby think of audiophiles as being wackos/screwballs because of the amount of time, money, and passion they put towards their systems. I find it very interesting that individuals who spend tremendous amounts of money and time pursuing esoteric tastes such as wines, watches, coins, etc, are considered connoisseurs or aficionados with a serious passion that is often respected even if it is not the other person's cup of tea. Another example would be people who love high end cars/boats who read all the magazines, go to the shows and invest large sums of money to purchase and tweak their cars or boats to get the last bit of ultimate performance out of their prized possessions. So I don't believe the negative viewpoint towards passionate audiophiles revolves around the amount of money that they can invest in their equipment. So my question for all you GON members is what would be your explanation for people outside our hobby having such a negative or condescending attitude towards our passion, where they infrequently would not have the same attitude towards other people's hobbies and passionate but unique pursuits? It would be a pleasure to hear about your experiences and what your explanation would be for this phenomena towards our hobby.

 
A very thoughtful post at the top of every page yet people seem to always respond to the last thing posted regardless of how irrelevant it may be and so I thought better paste it in here so no misunderstandings. I am responding to the OP. 

teajay compares audio to wine, cars, and unique pursuits. I have been president of a Porsche Club of America Region, a salt water aquarium club, was in the Tacoma Astronomical Society, played tournament racquetball, was a SCCA Cat 3 racer who did RAMROD and STP, attended wine and champagne tastings, Search and Rescue Team Leader, learned to climb with the Mountaineers, and with a Seamaster and Spring Drive you could say I have dabbled in the watch world as well. None of that is to brag, just to say I have experience in a number of realms that all share the common theme of people taking their interest to extremes.

In the Porsche world they do this to such an extent there are people who only care about Concours, by which they mean not merely shiny but something very specific, the car must be absolutely authentic and in every detail as it rolled off the line at the factory. Or as it crossed the finish line, in the case of a race car. Yes they get that particular.

Most audiophiles, I would not even begin to say are anywhere near as intensely focused on excellence as that. That word choice by the way is the name of one of the premier Porsche magazines in the world- excellence. Lower case e. Understated. As in, "excellence was expected."

My experience with all of these things has always been nobody thinks you're a "whacko". Unless of course you are indeed a whacko. Of which there always are a few, everywhere. But, generally speaking, nobody I met ever thought it was nuts to have an absolutely gleaming glossy Porsche. Heck I can't put gas in mine without someone coming over to strike up a conversation. The vibe I get from them is always one of respect and admiration and camaraderie. Yes. Even at the US border, the freaking border agent, first thing he said was, "I'll be perfectly honest, I always wanted one of these." Border officer!

From the car to the watch to the telescope, aquarium, and yes sound system the typical reaction is.... Reverence. Admiration. Humility. The sense of being in the presence of something special.

That's even the comment someone left on my system page, that he walked in the room and immediately had the feeling of being someplace special. The same comment was made by a woman the first time she sat in a 911, that she felt it was something special. People have been caught more than once staring at my watch. Captivated and puzzled at the same time, because it does say Seiko yet they can see with their own eyes it clearly is no Seiko. Its not. Its a Grand Seiko. Its special.

So I would just relax on the whole whacko thing. If it does come up though just ask yourself, "Is it me? Or is it him?" Remember: they are everywhere.

Because the shoe fits.

 No matter how much live music is available to me I'll always be captivated by music heard through high quality audio systems. It's a different experience that's built upon the original experience.

Most of my friends don't care enough about my audio stuff to say I'm a "wacko." That would imply they're paying attention when I bore them with trying to play something for them to demonstrate how cool it is...never works...

....or at least some Sebastian (Philip) Bierk incessantly.

schubert
Guys in their late 60’s coming near to blows over which heavy metal
band was best are seen as nut jobs .

>>>>>Don’t pay any attention to them Schubert. Just play Bach incessantly.

It is sold in a very nice hardcover book, inexpensivly. Italian Bikes Rule.                   (Paramounts also:)

isochronism ...

I hadn't heard of "The Rules" before, but I accessed it at your suggestion. Thanks. I forwarded it to my eldest daughter who is a monster on the road bike. 

This certainly applied to me when I was a cyclist. From the "Rules:"

• " For us, it is about the glory of suffering. It is about your mind saying shut up to your body when your body says stop. About acknowledging, as the pros do, that cycling “never gets easier, you just go faster”.

It is amazing how much pain the human body can endure when the goal is set at a high level, and the importance of attaining it is paramount. 

Frank

 

wideload ...

I spent 40 years in the residential real estate business. That took me into thousands, maybe even tens of thousands of homes. I was always astounded by how many homes had no music and no books. Big-screen TVs, sure, but almost 100% had no music, and most had no books.

Frank

Speak for yourself dude!!!

Just scrolled through listing photos of 24 homes of $million+ without seeing a single pair of high end speakers. A couple dedicated theaters that got a photo or two as opposed to 5-10 of the spa bathroom and 25 of the kitchen. I've attended Parade of Homes for years in many cities and, again, have never seen a decent audio system-lots of whole house, ceiling mounted speakers though.  I was asked by the listing agent and a stager to remove my system the two times I've sold a home. I declined. My practice with any move has been the stereo is the last thing out of the place I'm exiting and the first thing set up in the new place. Yup, I've ended up sleeping on the floor for a night or two at times.

Frank, Have you read "The Rules" - (of) Velominati? Similar could be put to Audiophilia.

An obsession is a very peculiar thing indeed.  🏅

There's nothing wrong with me that the next $150 fuse won't cure. 

Wonderfully stated.

Wisdom lies in choosing your insanity wisely.

Guys in their late 60's  coming near to blows  over which heavy metal
band was best  are seen as nut jobs .

Because we are! ha, ha, ha...

ozzy

Hey, that’s nothing. Check out model railroaders sometime, dude. 

Have you checked the calendar?

Maybe your a wacko most people are not.HELLO!!!!!!!

Have you read this message board lately?

Because they write long responses not broken up into paragraphs for easier readability (especially on devices). 

I think a lot of the complaints against spending the $$$ we do for our listening pleasure is the music we listen to. My son has a pair of DOGG speakers that really fill his room out for the DOG music he listens to. I tried some of his music on my system and it was terrible. I tried my music on his system and it was terrible. So.......I think that if you want to listen to subwoofer music and the booming that goes along, then buy the cheap blaster speakers. If you want to listen to classic, jazz, or even early RNR, then get a good system....IMHO

CWlondon, do you have any ideas how audio should be marketed?

(Yes, I do. Which I why I continue to contribute to this thread. And I could be available for consulting, if anyone would like some help. I am very expensive but I continue to give away some of my best ideas here for free.)

I'm commonly asked by non-audiophiles "Do you REALLY hear the differences?" or "How can you be so sure of what you're hearing?"

(Great audio is not for everyone. But it should be for a lot more people than the audio wackos reach.)

Just off the top of my head, how do you legitimize:
1) A $5,000 CDP that can't read a CD but a $70 Sanyo boombox can. Deal went nuts trying to find a reason to blame me.
- A $1,500 CDP that failed during demo - on 2 separate occasions.

(You can't, you shouldn't and you don't need to. Sell something else.)

2) One guy uses "garden hose" size speaker wire then you've got Mapleshade wire that's 1/16" dia. How can both be the best when they are such polar opposites?

(Some sports cars use V-8s, others turbo charge much smaller engines. They can all be great.)

3) Companies who put together garbage with no engineering background with serious design flaws that Stereo mags rave about. There are too many companies who ride the high price wave with just fancy packaging because most people don't know the difference. If you want audio jewelry fine but if you're buying for sound, how do you really know?

(This is another example still stuck in the old model. The audio mags trash Bose, but they still sell like hotcakes. Again, its about MARKETING)

I remember one salesman saying on line that if he had product he wanted to move, he would set it up real good in his store. He had othere stuff that sounded better but not when he set up the "bad" stuff well. How can you trust a industry like this?

(He sounds like a creep, and you are correct, you cannot necessarily trust an industry like this. If the industry became more sophisticated and trustworthy, these used car sales style prejudices would fade over time.)

Another example, I had a defective preamp. Fortunately I could compare to a good one soon thereafter. I don't think I could've heard the sonic degradation unless I had a good one to compare to, the differences were so small. Otherwise I'd still be happily listening to my defective preamp and never know it. I'm not saying only specs matter but at least it's a good place to start. You've got to have some kind of solid foundation to build upon. Subjective opinion is fine for one individual with one stereo but not for mass market, IMHO.

(Think more about the performance of sports cars, the differences in high priced kitchen appliances and the subtlety of wine, yet there are still powerful brands in all of these businesses.)

4) A 40 year old McIntosh 275 amp being close to state of the art even today. All the while stereo mags are finding big improvements in power amps every month. How can this be?

(It cannot be. I agree that not much is new - check out my "latest" system -- most of it is 20 years old. Your point about the mags is yet another example of how the industry sells BS instead of quality, while shooting themselves in the foot. This is why they are not succesful.)

5) I had a dealer tell me how the speakers he stopped selling last year sounded like crap (very highly regarded, well engineered, strong audiophile following) but his new line is great. Do you think he told people they were crap when he was selling the line a year ago? Should I believe that he won't be calling the new line crap when it doesn't sell and he dumps it for something else next year?

(You shouldnt believe anything he says. He is another example of why this industry is hopelessly stuck as a cottage industry, lousy business, run and promoted by wackos.)

I know people who would love to have a nice stereo but the risks are way too high. And you will lose thousands if you guess wrong. Unless you can solidly define what is out there and the differences between stuff, very few people are going to buy into it.

(I agree that the differences should be clear. But the differences are not what we debate in our geeked out forum. These products could be differentiated by a long list of things, many of which have nothing to do with how it sounds.)

Best of luck

Cwlondon

Well if anyone want's support for the observation that audiophiles are Whacko's look at the "Expensive Cables" thread....'nuf said.

well said,cdc.....

CWlondon, do you have any ideas how audio should be marketed? I'm commonly asked by non-audiophiles "Do you REALLY hear the differences?" or "How can you be so sure of what you're hearing?" Most people don't listen that much or that intently to start picking up on sounds.
Just off the top of my head, how do you legitimize:
1) A $5,000 CDP that can't read a CD but a $70 Sanyo boombox can. Deal went nuts trying to find a reason to blame me.
- A $1,500 CDP that failed during demo - on 2 separate occasions.
2) One guy uses "garden hose" size speaker wire then you've got Mapleshade wire that's 1/16" dia. How can both be the best when they are such polar opposites?
3) Companies who put together garbage with no engineering background with serious design flaws that Stereo mags rave about. There are too many companies who ride the high price wave with just fancy packaging because most people don't know the difference. If you want audio jewelry fine but if you're buying for sound, how do you really know?
I remember one salesman saying on line that if he had product he wanted to move, he would set it up real good in his store. He had othere stuff that sounded better but not when he set up the "bad" stuff well. How can you trust a industry like this?
Another example, I had a defective preamp. Fortunately I could compare to a good one soon thereafter. I don't think I could've heard the sonic degradation unless I had a good one to compare to, the differences were so small. Otherwise I'd still be happily listening to my defective preamp and never know it. I'm not saying only specs matter but at least it's a good place to start. You've got to have some kind of solid foundation to build upon. Subjective opinion is fine for one individual with one stereo but not for mass market, IMHO.
4) A 40 year old McIntosh 275 amp being close to state of the art even today. All the while stereo mags are finding big improvements in power amps every month. How can this be?
5) I had a dealer tell me how the speakers he stopped selling last year sounded like crap (very highly regarded, well engineered, strong audiophile following) but his new line is great. Do you think he told people they were crap when he was selling the line a year ago? Should I believe that he won't be calling the new line crap when it doesn't sell and he dumps it for something else next year?

I know people who would love to have a nice stereo but the risks are way too high. And you will lose thousands if you guess wrong. Unless you can solidly define what is out there and the differences between stuff, very few people are going to buy into it.

Good to hear there is sanity out there.Peace.

Brucegel

I give both my wife and son a hug at and tell them I love them as much as I possibly can.

If "wackos" weren't running the hi fi industry, then I might be the one getting more hugs and reassurance from my wife, despite the fact that there are six foot Magneplanar Tympani panels dominating our living room.

Somewhere in all this coveting lets try and remember to give our wives and children a hug and tell them how much we love them.Unless you are a self absorbed single guy then you may rub the bubinga cabinet with a one hundred dollar bottle of purified tung oil.

CDC

In my view, people who can't cook but still spend $50,000 on a kitchen, or people who can't drive but still order Porsches with "Tiptronic" transmissions -- they are no more and no less sane than audiophiles who spend thousands speaker cables.

(If anything, I might argue that they are LESS sane, because in my thesis that only audiophiles care about audio, we assume that the audiophile, at least to some degree, USES the equipment.)

In the end, whether or not Mr and Mrs Super Rich Famous and Glamorous care about high end, I will still obsess over it, contribute to this forum and tweak the placement of my speakers into perfect equilateral triangles until I am dead and buried.

However, I maintain my position that audiophiles are "perceived as being wackos" (remember why we started this thread?) for no other reason other than wackos are the marketing face of the industry and have failed to create or associate any luxury goods cachet with their products.

I think this is unfortunate because it keeps the market small and contributes to the prejudices that started this thread.

Your comment about Marantz and Sony is a popular argument but here, too, I respectfully disagree.

GM may focus on minivans to the exclusion of 400 horsepower sports cars, but that doesn't negate Porsche's or Ferrari's ability to capture the imagination of the public, build genuine, successful businesses and/or become status symbols to aspirational, mass affluent consumers.

Like your $279.00 tuner, there are inexpensive Japanese cars that can be tweaked out to outperform a 911, but that fact isn't going to put Porsche out of business any time soon.

Oh...and one other thing: I was in SONY Style the other day on Madison Avenue and it seems that they, in fact, are catching on to this idea.

In the back of their showroom, in boutiquey little rooms, they now have insanely expensive, limited production headphones, digital cameras and other quirky overpriced and completely unnecessary products, far beyond the reach of our grubby wacko hands, displayed in huge vault like glass cases and marketing as their luxury sub brand: Sony Qualia.

Again, only the wackos have made this wacko.

Because actually, it is a joy, a luxury, and something that no one who can afford it should be without.

Thought all you "wackos" might enjoy this new thread that was directly inspired by this one.

Marco

So CW, if audiophile only spend big $$$ for prestige and not perceived benefits we can appreciate we'd be okay. I.E. the people with $50,000 kitchens don't claim any benefit other than prestige are sane? I think you may be on to something but maybe notexpressed quite right.
Maybe there is a reason why marketing giants like Marantz and Sony either 1) don't sell or 2) got out of the high end. Instead now they only sell "midfi" stuff at "midfi" prices. Why do you think this is? Back in the day, Marantz sold the most expensive amp made but it was never reviewed. An old timer told me the stereo mag's couldn't afford to buy one to review :-).
I had the Fanfare $1,500+ tuner and my Marantz ST6000 for $279 smokes it for front end receiving strength and virtually EVERY spec on the spec sheet not to mention 2 antennae inputs and 60 presets (vs. 7).

All thing find their level.Eveyone gets what they give.Its only about the music."Same as it ever was"(David Byrne)

Brucegel

Oh my god! The veil has been ripped away?!

There is nothing more to discuss in this thread.

We are, in fact, "wackos".

I can distill Cwlondons comments down to a simple phrase..One cannot prove the worthiness of his/her dimentia through "proper marketing".Man invented mirrors for a reason.

That fat guy in the Nordost ad dancing because he bought $3,000 Nordost speaker wire.

I once read a study that concluded people who frequent topic specific internet chat sites tend to take more radical positions and make more extremist statements than they would in normal social interaction. Political conservatives become even biggest A-holes, Aryan supremacist become whiter and wine enthusiasts become even whinier. You get the drift. As audiophiles/music lovers we tend to magnify sonic minutiae and elevate its importance. One product inevitably blows away another. Take the recent thread on PMC vs. ATC speakers. It's hard to tell the products apart, yet two people argued at length over the huge differences between the speaker brands. Any sane outsider reading would of course assume the people are fairly wacko. Their intensity alone would alert normal people to that fact. But so what! It's people being insanely passionate about something that makes the world interesting.