Who thinks $5K speaker cable really better than generic 14AWG cable?

So Spenrock are you saying that two 24 guage conductors combined for the + and two 24 guage conductors   combined for the - have the same power handling capabilities as14 guage wire? I'm calling bull$#!@ on that comparison

A repost...
its not just about raw material price...

ODINS EXPLAINED AND REVIEWED
http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/nordost-valhalla-2-the-importance-of-cables-in-high-end-audio/

http://www.theaudiobeat.com/equipment/nordost_odin.htm


http://www.soundandvision.com/content/nordost-odin-cables#c68okKGhtPBGbdrT.97

THE Highlights extracted from the above

(1) THEY WORK, BUT THEY ARE NOT FOR EVERYBODY AND THE REST OF THE SYSTEM IS PRESUMED TO BE IN LINE WITH THE ULTRA-HIGH-END STRATA OF THE CABLE .

You could easily spend six figures to connect all your gear with these cables, so the big question is how much improvement do they realistically provide? They've garnered glowing reviews in the audiophile press, but I contend that any improvements are most noticeable when the rest of the system is similarly ultra-high-end—anything less will drown the effect of the cables in other problems. But if you've got the audiophile itch—and the scratch to match—I'm willing to bet you can't do better than Odin.

(2) THEIR HISTORY IS UNIQUE.

Nordost came to the field of audio cabling in a rather odd way. The company was founded in hard science -- developing and manufacturing cabling for ultra-high-precision aerospace, aviation and medical applications. Somewhere along the line a clever Jack decided that the same technology just might be the proverbial cat’s meow when applied to high-end audio. Whoever he was, he was right, and the company now makes cables for every wallet -- from the bargain-basement Best Buy shopper to the enthusiast who owns a penthouse overlooking Central Park or Malibu Beach.

(3) YES THEY ARE EXPENSIVE.

There are reasons for Odin's extreme cost. There is a lot of very high-purity metal in these surprisingly heavy wires, and a lot of it is silver.

-- Odin is also VERY hard to make.

--  The micron-level precision tolerances necessitated by the design result in a crazy-high scrap rate.

-- There are also nearly ten years of research and development in this product, and that investment of man hours has to be recouped.

If one were to purchase speaker wires at the cost of many thousands of dollars, surely this would be money well-spent.
How could it not be so?

Of course it is true.  The higher you price an item, the better the quality becomes.....Or not.

The Value Equation keeps us sane and smart.  Quality ÷ Price = Value.

I replaced Tara labs Rsc air one speaker cables on my bass amps, MSRP was $1,700.  Replaced with Tara Labs The One, MSRP $5,000 - they blew the crap out of the prior cables.  A deaf man could hear it. 

there is a number of issues to be considered when talking about cables. yes, 14AWG can be used but is it transporting all frequencies properly or is it acting as a cheap 'tone control' for an expensive system? how 'fast' are the cables as high transmission (or propagation) speed results in fast transients and high level of details. transmission speed depends on dielectric used and geometry of cables and differences can be quite significant. does your environment needs shielding - how 'noisy' it is and are there issues with static electricity, etc. some people spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on 'cable lifters' and similar gadgets instead of getting shielded cables to start with. these are just some of the issues 'good' cable manufacturers have to deal with, and this is not to say there aren't inflated prices and gimmicks in this industry. look for good science and good reviews on manufacturer's sites.

So many wasted keystrokes by the Stereo Review/Julian Hirsch/Dunning-Kruger effect crew.    Any wise man should understand that human senses vary greatly in acuity, recognize their own limitations, but- NOT assume everyone else is thus limited.

Interesting discussion.  I have heard others dispute the differences between high and mid level cables, but never $5k vs $10 wire.  There are only three variables here: ears, equipment and cables.  I agree with some of the earlier comments in this thread: there are folks who don't have the ears for this hobby.  I also know from experience that some equipement is not that transparent/neutral.  Some manufacturers intentionally "voice" their gear to produce a certain sound that distinquishes and sells their brand.  I found such equipment is relatively insensitve to both cabling as well as source material since the "signature sound" of the components dominate the signal path.

Truly neutral gear, which is tranparent to source and devoid of a particular sonic signature, is very revealling of everything that is in or otherwise influences the signal path. 

In terms of cables, I had Acoustic Zen speaker cables and auditioned several brands, including Synergistic Research CTS, before settling on SR Atmosphere Level 4.  Admittedly, the differences between some SC's were less noticable than others.  However, the elevation in each of the sonic elements of sound that the Level 4 provided was very noticable.  Even the audio sceptic in our family (my wife) was quick to notice and she didn't even know I had replaced the Zen's.

No, there are at least four variables - your eyes, or your expectation that a very expensive item should sound better than a cheaper one.

That is why at least a single blind test is required.

I don't think anyone will dispute that speaker cables can sound different (esp. with electrostatic speakers) as opposed to interconnects.

The questions are [1] whether X sounds BETTER than Y speaker cable, and if so, then [2] can you achieve that with EQ.

Lots of variables, as Randy-11 and others have pointed out.  

How does one quantify "better" give that some speaker wires will sound merely different than others?  For example, you run Monoprice wire and are pleased, but decide to go ahead, for one reason or another, and purchase much more expensive brand "X" wires. You then discover that they sound different, (hopefully better) how do you measure your return on investment?

In other words, if Monoprice wire costs $50 and brand X super-duper wire costs $5000, is brand X worth $4950 more?  Are you happier? Do you enjoy listening to your stereo system that much more? Would you have been ultimately better of if you'd invested the $4950 into T-Bills or some other conservative financial growth vehicle?

Do you even care, given this hobby can be so whacky?

@ ps: yes!!

Maybe the conversation (debate?) should lessen the price delta between beer pocket magnet wire and champagne filigree cables to something more sensible. 

There will always be an argument for doing things on the cheap and those who are advocates of that argument will never see the advantages of better cabling and their inherent costs. Yes, there is a limit to what is reasonable but that too, is in the eyes (ears and pocketbook) of the beholder. 

Do whatever you like and stop trying to herd cats.

All the best,
Nonoise

Cats can easily be herded, NoNoise.  Just show them shiney, bouncy, visually appealing things that cost way more than barn mice...and smell like they might taste better, and they will jump toward them.  Not knowing (or caring) that the decrepid ole barn mouse was, in all meaningful ways, a better deal.

Also, "doing things on the cheap" as you say, sometimes makes you the smartest guy in the room.  It is always a measure of value.

What matters most in speaker cable is that you have the proper gauge for the type of power you are delivering to your speakers.  The greater distance and power deliver will demand a higher gauge.  P / IE   What the expensive speaker wire companies claim is that the capacitive and inductive reactance along the conductor is figured to give minimal degradation of the sound and also have a lower resistance.  Alos the Purity of the conductor. (Which lowers resistance)
That is the claim.  I reality, the human ear is sensitive to a point.  Everyone has an opinion on what great sound is.  Some people like a velvet mid-range to their music and the next guy might not care as long as the highs are crisp.  Some like resounding bass.  I have been an audio enthusiast for over 45 years.  During that time I have heard many high end systems ranging from  $1,000 for a pre amp and power amp to the $10,000 Levensen mono blocks which are cheap in this forum.
 I have to say I have never heard anything better than the levenson.  I have heard Conrad Johnson, Krell, MacIntosh, and the old Crown amps / pre amps.  The Crowns were the poor mans MacIntosh, close but not quite.  To get better than a $1,000  power amp pre-amp, it would take about 4 times the cost.  One you reach the Levenson Quality, then it is opinion and taste. The Speaker wire as long as it was 12 gauge no longer than 15 ft was good.  I use 10 gauge at 15ft and it does great!  Go by what you hear, that is what matters, not the hype!

Who are you guys talking to? Each other? All the guys that know better have checked out.

Dave

The cables I have span a small amount from around $100 to just over $500, including the discounts for discontinued lines. I have solid core copper, solid core silver,  silver plated copper, stranded and tinned stranded, Litz, most with terminations and a few with bare ends.

Just with that motley assortment I can tell the differences and from that I can tell that spending more can get you more. They all have great bang for the buck so I'm satisfied, even content not to spend more. That's a pittance to what others have spent so I guess there's value in that. 
:-)

All the best,
Nonoise

Bravo akg_ca!

The number of times this same theme of anti-audiophile cables/prices has appeared over the last 1-2 years alone is staggering.  There is some expensive cable that is way overpriced and a rip-off but there are legitimate entries in the high-end cable world at respectable prices that bring a personality/performance/improvement coefficient to a system that cannot be beat, or at least not with cheap wire from a commodity source.  Deaf men can hear the effects of the legitimate products out there over cheap wire for systems that truly deserve that type of investment.

Regarding the statements and implications that attempt to paint a broad stroke characterization of all audiophiles who spend on higher cost cables as weak-minded, pliable, easily fooled, etc...and somehow enforce your view of the world and your agenda as a truth that must apply to all is simply not true.  From my side I can personally recount 3 times in the last 11 years alone where (1) I ripped out an entire loom of a highly-thought of brand of  expensive power cords, went back to stock cords and determined the stock cords were more natural sounding and that as the loom of pcs had grown, a mistake had been made that resulted in accumulated house sound.  Same with 2 different iterations of a combination of speaker cables and interconnects from 2 different high-end cable manufacturers at various points. Each time I either returned to stock PCs or to very low-cost power cords, interconnects and speaker cables. There were things the low cost approach cables did not give me that I determined to live without and many that I did hear that I liked. 

I've also cut into or unwrapped more than a few cables in my time to see what's inside and realize there are a few brands out there that are simply "F-O-S!!!" and pulling one over on many of us music lovers.

I only 'went back to spend more ' because I happened to be given an interconnect, a speaker cable and a power cord from one manufacturer that are not inexpensive, but not amongst the strata of audio cables that simply cannot explain their prices in terms of any reasonable markup on cost of goods plus cost of manufacture (and R&D). I stayed with the brand in question as they survived real A/B testing (double-blind) and truly deliver what they say with a high-end, resolving system and a good pair of ears on the receiving end.

I'm not here to give examples of the "B.S." cable choices I've experienced, nor am I going to give the names of the brands that I ripped out of the system or the higher end brand I wound up going moving to in order to promote them.  

In short, if you like the sound of commodity wire in your systems, more power to you and I am truly happy for you. Also, all this debate and all the ones like it aside, Happy New Year to everyone!

In an earlier post someone was touting (promoting? selling?) Nordost Odin cables (see link at bottom).  A quick and dirty calculation determined that to equip a stereo system (preamp/amp/player/speakers) with this line of cables, it would cost $176,000.  Let's say that these cables provided a significant 5% "improvement" in audio quality.  My math says that the rest of your system should cost about $3,500,000.00 for this purchase to make sense.  

This is a very exaggerated example of why this topic is of interest to so many...and won't go away.  

Oh...and Nordost also sells rubber feet for your speakers and components for up to $350/ea.

That these exist is almost laughable.  That someone would have so little respect for the value of money to buy them is incomprehensible to me. That otherwise intelligent "audiophiles" would fall for the "science" that goes into these WIRES is just funny.

Here is the Nordost webpage:

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/nordost-odin-cables#RVL875dvXyhkwk1P.97

Some related reading expensive cable buyers will hate:

http://ethanwiner.com/audiophoolery.html

and: http://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cables/top-ten-signs-an-audio-cable-vendor-is-selling-you-snake-oil

Dynaquest4 wrote,

"In an earlier post someone was touting (promoting? selling?) Nordost Odin cables (see link at bottom). A quick and dirty calculation determined that to equip a stereo system (preamp/amp/player/speakers) with this line of cables, it would cost $176,000. Let’s say that these cables provided a significant 5% "improvement" in audio quality. My math says that the rest of your system should cost about $3,500,000.00 for this purchase to make sense."

Thanks for the heads up. I was this close to pulling the trigger on a full loom of Nordost Odin cables.

dynaquest414 posts "Oh...and Nordost also sells rubber feet for your speakers and components for up to $350/ea."

I love when someone posts an obvious misstatement of fact maligning a product they have obviously never seen or heard.

After reading through this I agree with you dlcockrum" ...All the guys that know better have checked out."

jperry: Please don't make the misstatement that I made a misstatement. Three clicks would find you here: https://www.musicdirect.com/vibration-control/nordost-sort-fut-resonance-control-system

Actually the price isn't that bad compared to their Odin cables.  Feet for two speakers would only set you back $3000.00

dynaquest4, I was not talking about the price, and you did make a misstatement. 

jperry: What? Is this some game? What was the misstatement you highlight but do not reveal?  Is it my use of the generic term "rubber feet?"

See what you stated sautan! LOL

@dynaquest4 I suspect it is your use of the term "rubber feet" when the Sort Fut is aluminium, bronze and ceramic with no rubber at all -- implying you have done no research and have no real interest nor belief in the value of vibration control

I’ve never tried this particular footer but I will note that my preferred footers (Marigo F8) are even more tweaky in their design, and cost a little more as well I think ...

folkfreak: All I was "researching" was the price. Don’t really care what they are made of since they seem to fix a problem that does not exist...or at least is not audible to the human ear (an opinion)...or provide an increase in audio quality so infinitesimal that moving a sofa 1/4" might work as well.

So, you are correct, "...I have no interest or belief," which is the point of my comment.

These over engineered, ridiculously priced cables and other "accessories" seem to say more about the buyers and the marketeers who gladly sell them. Kinda like a Rolex vs. Timex. Both tell time accurately but only the Rolex says you have money to burn. It is a piece of jewelry. Just like a $16,000.00 RCA connect is a piece of jewelry. I want good music from my $30K system...not a personal financial statement.

Think I’ve made my opinions known so I will leave this forum now. If anyone needs the final word, fire away.

Thanks Folkfreak. Have a great day.

This is a useful discussion for someone who is unhappy with their system's sound or who has been debating spending a boatload on cables.

'Tis an ancient debate and will never be settled in the court of critical listening although I think it gas in the court of science. For myself, I believe very strongly in both sides. ;^)
I use 12 g Auvio speaker wire. It's 50% bare copper and 50% silver coated. I haven't compared it with more expensive cable; but other's have measured its resistance against 10 other cables and it came in second to Canare 411. http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?14134-When-12-Gauge-Wire-is-not-12-Gauge!
I've compared it to 14 g and basic 12 g. Not a huge difference; but at 10 ft. length, I like the Auvio better. Tried bi-wiring. I Think I may gave heard a slight difference in non-blind comparison. I left the speakers bi-wired because it couldn't hurt.

ICs are a different story. I feel one MUST replace the generic RCA ICs that come with most components, but I've achieved a sound that I like without spending a boatload. I recently replaced a pair of 1 1/2 meter AQ AlphaSnakes with a pair of 1 meter WireWorld Luna 7s, their cheapest at $40, on my Oppo BDP-95. There was a change in tonality, the WW being a little brighter and seeming to have better detail. I like that; but there are some passages where it is too bright for me. I'll live with that because these cables accomplished something I could not, no matter how I positioned my Canton Ergo 1002DCs. Not only did they widen the already wide soundstage and provide more space between the musicians, they actually elevated the stage from the level of my navel to that of my ears. I was not expecting that! I had a friend listen, literally blindfolded, as I switched the ICs back and forth - or not. He heard the same thing and was able to pick out the WWs 4 of 5 times. The WireWorld cables have a unique physical design, which is why I chose them. Was that the cause of the difference, or is it just that they are 1/2 meter shorter?  I don't know, but I'm planning on tying their Solstice or Oasis between my phono-pre and preamp. Maybe I'll keep them in the freezer for a week before I connect them. Nah. You can't believe everything you read. ;^)

"You can't believe everything you read."

Good words to live by.  I've always tried to take everything I've read with a 'grain of salt', as we were admonished by the older wizened ones.

It's since grown to the size of a salt lick, but it's a great place to prop up my weary feet whilst perusing the 'net's nooks 'n crannies....;)

"Sifting sand, sifting sand, lookin' for some trace of you...."

Note: All written below with the intent of humor, particularly at the end!

"Rolex & Timex, both tell time correctly..."; personally I do NOT like Rolex or other 'big balls on my wrist/matcho watches" type of watches but that's neither here nor there & is clearly a personal preference.  I tend more towards the more traditional Rados, Movados, etc and would love to own a (even used) Patek some day but you just cannot (IMHO in the long-run) compare the correctness of timekeeping and "likely to still work in 20+years" aspects of commodity watches (Timex, lower-end Bulova, Citizen, etc.. and others including Fossil (I've owned several of all 4 brands) and the vast collection of inexpensive bauble fashion watches out there in terms of build quality, etc...Go to the mall; it seems like every fashion brand out there now somehow magically knows how to match watches too.  I know in many cases mechanical movements are gone and the digital ones internally are in, but watch how the clasp, band, case, etc...hold up, how many of them (not all) either lose time or gain time after the 1 or more years, etc...and then compare against a better watch. In many (NOT ALL!) cases you get what you pay for. Both my wife and i have been through as has my son and the number of 'inexpensive' watches we've had to have fixed or discarded because the cost of fixing them exceeds what it took to buy them initially, is a very long list.

Here are the humor-laden intended bits below!

See,...I've gone and done "it" above; same problem as these damned cable threads. We will never solve or close down or win these things. They simply clutter up (which I've helped do here!) the forums. We all try to justify what we spend, or don't spend, do/don't believe accordingly; it's all subjective and there is no right or wrong.

Everybody who like higher-cost cables, let's all go ahead and keep using them and "STFU".

Everyone who wants to use lampshade wire, stock cords or good quality stock 10, 12, 14 or whatever gauge (which exists by the way) from Home Depot or Lowe's or GE, Westinghouse or anyone else, go ahead and keep on using them and "STFU".

In short, let's stop beating the crap out of each other with the same ole' threads with different subject lines and different content shall we?

Clearly,...ROTFLMAO, have a great day/night everyone!

The problem is that gullible consumers are being taken advantage of by fraudsters.

OTOH, if you have electrostatics, then you really can use over-priced speaker cables as very expensive tone controls.

I've got news for all of you cable addicts. 

The founder of Monster Cable said he realized that audio nuts would pay a fortune for "high end audio cable" so he founded a company based on that premise, creating products to meet this demand. He says that in reality the expensive cable makes little to no difference in the overall sound. You might as well use lamp chord. 

Audio dealers and manufacturers these days are just a hustle, thanks no doubt in part to extreme income inequality. 

For example, I saw a pair of speakers in an audio showroom whose cabinet size was suspiciously similar to mine. I walked over to get a closer look. They were claimed to be a one-off by Shindo. The asking price was $33K. I asked the dealer if the driver - plainly visible, no grill cloth - was the old Altec Lansing 604C. He hemmed and hawed for a bit but I put my foot down and said that I have a pair of 604Cs at home and I am 200% certain these drivers are the very same. My speakers, with cabs and the Mastering Lab crossovers cost $3.3K, not $33K!

He relented and by that time I had attracted a crowd. 

Some poor sucker bought these speakers a week later. 

Btw, the wires that connect the crossovers to the speaker terminals in the otherwise still fantastic sounding 694Cs - hey, good enough for Shindo - is definitely not $1K per foot. Cheap, very thin copper wire. 

unreceivedogma wrote,

"I’ve got news for all of you cable addicts.

The founder of Monster Cable said he realized that audio nuts would pay a fortune for "high end audio cable" so he founded a company based on that premise, creating products to meet this demand. He says that in reality the expensive cable makes little to no difference in the overall sound. You might as well use lamp chord."

Uh, hate to burst your bubble but Monster Cable, at least initially, was inexpensive cable, not expensive cable. Hel-loo! The attraction was that Monster Cable was THICK and you could see the thick copper through the clear jacket, which are both actually excellent ideas, you know, given the propensities of audiophiles.

After trying many brands of cables for my Infinity Irs Betas the ones that sound by far the best are the ones i made with 8 gauge magnet wire. I did some blind testing with a few friends and they all picked the homemade cables. 

So Doug Sax of Mastering Lab fame used ordinary wire???? This is blasphemy.

I love audiogon. It is a great, trusted, and reliable service. I have bought and sold a couple of items over the years. The forum can be a great resource, however I thoroughly enjoy reading these types of threads purely for the entertainment value. Absolute and total insanity!!!! My interest in home audio has evolved from buying mass market and then boutique gear to building my own amps and speakers. Not only is Radio Shack wire sufficient for most applications but thin, ugly, brown lamp cord from Home Depot is a great option as well. I defer to the Audio Critic and lie #1 from his "10 Biggest Lies in Audio."

"1. The Cable Lie
Logically this is not the lie to start with because cables are accessories, not primary audio components. But it is the hugest, dirtiest, most cynical, most intelligence-insulting and, above all, most fraudulently profitable lie in audio, and therefore must go to the head of the list.

The lie is that high-priced speaker cables and interconnects sound better than the standard, run-of-the-mill (say, Radio Shack) ones. It is a lie that has been exposed, shamed, and refuted over and over again by every genuine authority under the sun, but the tweako audio cultists hate authority and the innocents can’t distinguish it from self-serving charlatanry.

The simple truth is that resistance, inductance, and capacitance (R, L, and C) are the only cable parameters that affect performance in the range below radio frequencies. The signal has no idea whether it is being transmitted through cheap or expensive RLC. Yes, you have to pay a little more than rock bottom for decent plugs, shielding, insulation, etc., to avoid reliability problems, and you have to pay attention to resistance in longer connections. In basic electrical performance, however, a nice pair of straightened-out wire coat hangers with the ends scraped is not a whit inferior to a $2000 gee-whiz miracle cable. Nor is 16-gauge lamp cord at 18-cents a foot. Ultrahigh-priced cables are the biggest scam in consumer electronics, and the cowardly surrender of nearly all audio publications to the pressures of the cable marketers is truly depressing to behold."

Frame11 wrote,

"The simple truth is that resistance, inductance, and capacitance (R, L, and C) are the only cable parameters that affect performance in the range below radio frequencies."

😄 Thanks for the funniest statement of the day. Of course, there are 24 hours in a day. We shall see how it holds up.

unreceivedogma and  frame11

Please post your system components and details. Thanks.

Geoffkait,

I think frame11 was quoting the audio critic and the statement is entirely correct from an engineering design perspective. Go to any reputable University and study electrical engineering or physics and the professors and text books will only use R, L and C for calculations at audio frequencies. These are the only factors that need to be considered in these analog circuits at these frequencies because they encompass and describe the entire behaviour as far as reputable science is concerned.

Now anecdotally what people claim to hear can be an entirely different matter; unlike scientific laws and procedures in science that require repeatability of measurements by anyone and everyone to be accepted, there is no need to demonstrate or prove any of the wild claims about special wires...so audiophile dealers and audiophiles can and do make wild unsubstantiated claims all the time. These claims are quite similar to many unproven wild or crazy claims about incredible benefits of certain health foods or certain diets or any multitude of anecdotal claims that just might be influenced one encouraged by the potential profit from selling the "magical" products.

shadorne
Geoffkait,

I think frame11 was quoting the audio critic and the statement is entirely correct from an engineering design perspective. Go to any reputable University and study electrical engineering or physics and the professors and text books will only use R, L and C for calculations at audio frequencies. These are the only factors that need to be considered in these analog circuits at these frequencies because they encompass and describe the entire behaviour as far as reputable science is concerned.

I do hate to be argy bargy about this but if the statement regarding RLC was actually true then how come cables that measure the same sound different? That’s right up there with the bullet headed dude from Audio Review’s opinion that all amps that measured about the same sounded the same. Any reputable University? Huh? That’s like the most obvious Appeal to Authority I’ve seen all week. You know, as in phoney argument.

Now anecdotally what people claim to hear can be an entirely different matter; unlike scientific laws and procedures in science that require repeatability of measurements by anyone and everyone to be accepted, there is no need to demonstrate or prove any of the wild claims about special wires...so audiophile dealers and audiophiles can and do make wild unsubstantiated claims all the time. These claims are quite similar to many unproven wild or crazy claims about incredible benefits of certain health foods or certain diets or any multitude of anecdotal claims that just might be influenced one encouraged by the potential profit from selling the "magical" products.

Typical anti cable rant, signifying nada. In fact observations of the sound are perfectly good evidence in the scientific sense. Didn’t you know that?

"Cables that measure the same sound different". You state this as if it were fact but it is merely an anecdotal claim. Unfortunately your claim is not enough to cause curriculum changes globally in Universities. If you can provide verification or design an experiment to demonstrate this then you will become famous for discovering a new parameter in circuit design.

how about teleportation tweaks?   That's not even anecdotal unless one considers the seller saying it works enough to qualify. 

mapman
how about teleportation tweaks? That’s not even anecdotal unless one considers the seller saying it works enough to qualify.

Glad you brought that up, Moops. In fact there’s a bunch of "anecdotal" reports on the Teleportation Tweak, you know, given that it's been around a while. Give me a second and I’ll link you up.

Here you go, Moops

http://machinadynamica.com/machina39.htm

The nice thing about anecdotes are anyone can write one and say whatever they want.  Jacob Grimm came up with some classics in his day. 

mapman

The nice thing about anecdotes are anyone can write one and say whatever they want.

Right. Kinda like a lot of your posts, if I may be so bold.

You may. Most all posts here are anecdotes in a sense. Yours included.