Who thinks $5K speaker cable really better than generic 14AWG cable?
I recently ordered high end speaker, power amp, and preamp to be installed in couple more weeks. So the next search are interconnect and speaker cable. After challenging the dealer and 3 of my so called audiophile friends, I think the only reason I would buy expensive cable is for its appearance to match with the high end gears but not for sound performance. I personally found out that $5K cable vs $10 cable are no difference, at least not to our ears. Prior to this, I was totally believe that cable makes a difference but not after this and reading few articles online.
Here is how I found out.
After the purchase of my system, I went to another dealer to ask for cable opinion (because the original dealer doesn't carry the brand I want) and once I told him my gears, he suggested me the high end expensive cable ranging from $5 - 10K pair, depending on length. He also suggested the minimum length must be 8-12ft. If longer than 12ft, I should upgrade to even more expensive series. So I challenged him that if he can show me the difference, I would purchase all 7 AQ Redwood cables from him.
It's a blind test and I would connect 3 different cables - 1 is the Audioquest Redwood, 1 is Cardas Audio Clear, and 1 my own generic 14AWG about 7ft. Same gears, same source, same song..... he started saying the first cable sound much better, wide, deep, bla...bla...bla......and second is decently good...bla...bla...bla.. and the last one sounded crappy and bla...bla...bla... BUT THE REALITY, I NEVER CHANGED THE CABLE, its the same 14AWG cable. I didn't disclosed and move on to second test. I told him I connected audioquest redwood but actually 14AWG and he started to praise the sound quality and next one I am connected the 14awg but actually is Redwood and he started to give negative comment. WOW!!!! Just blew me right off.
I did the same test with 3 of my audiophile friends and they all have difference inputs but no one really got it right. Especially the part where I use same generic 14awg cable and they all start to give different feedback!!!
SO WHAT DO YOU ALL THINK? OR I AM THE LAST PERSON TO FIND OUT THAT EXPENSIVE CABLE JUST A RIP OFF?
< Coldears : The signal passes through so many different types of metals as it passes through your equipment it’s hard to believe that a cable and its content becomes such a debate. I have heard differences but none substantial enough to justify the cost that some charge.>
Difficult to argue with that logic. The one thing that's certain is that some cables can make their dealers a lot more money. Seriously, if you believe the cable myths then you should also consider having your amp/ turntable/ CD player/ source rewired as well.
You can safely assume that they were not wired with $5k cable. Neither are any recording studios.
cd318 Difficult to argue with that logic. The one thing that’s certain is that some cables can make their dealers a lot more money. Seriously, if you believe the cable myths then you should also consider having your amp/ turntable/ CD player/ source rewired as well.
>>>>>>Now you’re getting warm. That’s the problem in a nutshell. All wiring should be controlled for directionality. All fuses, speaker cables, interconnects, power cords - everything! Just like Audioquest controls directionality for all speakers cables, interconnects, power cords and HDMI cables. I contend the entire industry is in denial or else is simply ignorant. Can I say that? 😬 Since all wire is directional, all internal wiring of electronics and speakers should be controlled for directionality. All transformers, all digital cables, HDMI cables. Speaker crossovers, wire in resistors and capacitors. All of it. It’s time for the ostriches to pull their heads up out of the sand.
" started audio in 1965 ..." "The SP-3 wasn't introduced until 1973. "
Holy Moly...you guys ARE old! How is it possible your hearing is even remotely still good enough to note the subtle differences expensive cables and wire might make???
That was a particularly condescending post even for you! At 58 years young my hearing is more than good enough to tell differences that cabling and fuses can make. Try it someday, you might like it......
Got news for you dill, I was talking about age related hearing loss not "experimenting."
Over age 64, 30% of you guys suffer hearing loss. Over 74 that goes up to 50%. So much for the ability of a great percentage people that age to be able to pick out the very subtle changes different wiring makes...especially after the time it takes to switch to new wiring (audio memory).
Guys..are you kidding us, now turning to stats which apply to a percentage of the population to debunk others’ opinions that differ from yours? Let’s keep it decent here and stick to reasonable debates otherwise we might have to start talking about the effect in the under-50 crowd that the ostrich factor or preconceived notions can have on one’s hearing <said in spirit of a good laugh...>!!!
"
Over age 64, 30% of you guys suffer hearing loss. Over 74 that goes up to 50%."
That also means that over age 64, 70% don't suffer hearing loss and over 74, there is still about 50% that also don't have hearing loss...could be that you are dealing with folks that despite our respective ages (I'm 54 as an FYI) still have perfect hearing according to yearly tests. Guess some of the results could be valid after all :-) !!!
No need to get all jacked up; just making a point that perhaps some 30 to 50 percent of those here likely, in addition to experiencing expectation bias, couldn't hear differences in exotic cables even if they did exist. My point is based on the fact of age related hearing loss...while most claims regarding wire-related audio improvements are nothing more than suppositions.
With these things it all depends on how you define functional hearing loss. In a practical sense there is no hearing loss if your hearing is fine up to, say, 12K, and more or less stops there. For the ability to hear slight sonic differences between cables, that does make a big difference, however. It is well documented that adult males lose their ability to hear the highest frequencies, the older they get. Females do rather better here. So yes, I think the question mark was a very legitimate one, and not at all in bad taste, unless you think reality itself is a bad joke.
In fact, it has been argued here and elsewhere that the high frequency hearing loss of the audiophile demographic may explain the rise in the number of modern speakers with shrill top ends. Those attempt to bring back some of the 'air', 'sound stage', or 'detail' lost because of reduced high frequency hearing.
I suspect any hi end or mid fi audio company that targets aging and increasing deaf audiophiles should probably go back and revise their business plan.
Oh, no! Not more Roger Russell!? Here we go again! Besides I actually don’t think I was agreeing with you. 🤠 All us old dudes know we can’t hear. You don’t have to rub it in.
I started audio in 1965 with lamp cord and with PCs that were fixed to my ARC Sp-3 line stage and Dual 75 amps all sitting on planks with cinder blocks separating them. I bought Fulton's special cable here zoo creatures reacted to alarm calls and recognized them as welding cables such as I had used in materials testing. I heard 'charged' cables and found them somewhat better. Then about four years ago I got High Fidelity CT-1s to listen to. I was shocked at what their top end sounded like. Later I heard their enhanced which had better bass, and so it went until I got their 'Pros' I had never heard such realism. Later yet I heard their 154 pound IC between my line stage and amp. The bass was utterly real. I am utterly happy with your decision but absolutely disagree. I know the impact of the H-Cat OS12 amp, OS-12 line stage and very low cartridge phono stage contributes. I'm happy at last.
I was fine with lamp cord, zip cord or simple, straightforward cables for years. Unfortunately, my wife is a huge fan of the overpriced, overhyped cables which are debated here ad nausea. I sure wish she didn't hear a difference between Transparent Audio and Radio Shack cables but she does. She wouldn't exaggerate it, she has no reason to do so! She also likes tubes better than solid state. What can I say, I love my wife and will go to great lengths to ensure her happiness, even $10,000 cables.
I have heard second or third hand that expensive cables and zip cord sound the same when someone lives in their parent's basement but I have no firsthand experience with that rumor. That might explain some of the results people have experienced through the years.
At the end of the day, listen to your music however it makes you happy and stop obsessing about your gear....and especially the gear that someone else has chosen for their own enjoyment.
I suspect your premise that trolls living in the basement may have some merit. Might explain a lot..... And yes that is tongue in cheek and to be taken in said manner......
It seems to be getting harder and harder to distinguish the sarcastic posts from the sincere posts. Maybe if people put a smiley face or grimacing face after their posts we would be more able to tell the difference.
Sorry about that @geoffkait , yes, the first two paragraphs were partially sarcastic and the final paragraph straight (my wife really can hear the difference and it is the epitome of double-blind testing, she will sit down and tell me what is different without knowing if anything was changed)....enjoy yourselves, its just hifi.
the only way you will know what you like is to live and try all for a couple months. For ease of change my amp faces backward with binding post facing me....easy to change cables
yna said: " Holy Moly...you guys ARE old! How is it possible your hearing is even remotely still good enough to note the subtle differences expensive cables and wire might make???"
I got interested in audio in 1970 (I was 18) and started experimenting with cables in 1980, I was 38. I am now 65 with only a very minor loss in my left ear and have no problem hearing differences (good or bad) in cables.
Why do you state facts based on other people’s work, citing nothing you have done yourself. It sounds like you think any cable more expensive than Monoprice is a ripoff, doesn’t sound any better and provided nothing that says you have tried anything else.
If you are of the camp that says if the measurements are the same, the sound is the same and that if you pay more then ?$, it is a ripoff. So what, who cares! Most of us in high-end audio are smart people and are not swayed by condescending statements like:
" intelligent people can be so naive when it comes to audio improvements with no basis in reality." - " In my opinion, the differences in cables (if any - for comparable resistance and length) are very subtle. So subtle that by the time you swap our to a different set your audio memory (the accuracy of which is extremely perishable) will not be able to recall the previous audio parameters sufficiently to note a difference. " - " Not to mention the colorful garden hose sizes you can buy for mucho $$$$$$. " - " What audioman is saying in his post is that if you pay more it, will sound better. Same old snake oil pitch. " - " You should have spent $5K, wgutz, with that extra two grand expectation, your system would have sounded jaw-droppingly better for sure." -
I resent being talked to down by you! Please, consider a vacation from this forum, go on a "quest" and do a bit of cable exploration, maybe gain some experience in listening to different types of wire other than Monoprice.
😎
Pretty good with the 'ole Cut and Paste, dill. Please do not ask me to take a vacation from this forum. My comments are not offensive unless, for whatever reason, you are inclined to take them as such. I stand by my opinions and my right to express them. Being 65, you surely should understand that. 🤩🎼
I do not consider your comments "offensive", I do consider them as condescending (like the post above) as I would venture others here do too. May I suggest that your "opinions" might carry a bit more weight if you can back them up with some of YOUR experience, with your opinions. Is that too much to ask? Surely, someone of your age could understand that. 🎯
Sorry, dill....do not mean to project an air of superiority. I have noted my experience with WireWorld and and Kimber Kables in previous posts. I don't have to continue to waste my money on snake oil products to satisfy those who fall for the scams in order to have "more experience" and a valid counter opinion about these products.
So, enlighten us on your experience with WireWorld & Kimber Kables. I too have experience with these cables, maybe we share the same results. Please try not to use "snake oil" or "scams" in your review, just what you hear or don't hear.
You mean this: "Some time ago, I replaced the Kimber (speaker) cables that came with a slightly used pair of B&W 803's with a 20 dollar set of Monoprice cables. I had no way to do a "blind" A/B test but after I switched them out those 803's continued to sweetly sing...no difference that I could tell"
Count me in the 'very little difference' camp, if there is one in what seems a fairly binary issue. What's certain to me is that the difference between 14awg lamp cord and $10k cables isn't proportional to the price difference.
I wonder what blind testing would show in a case with a known quality/impedance difference, e.g., a 3-foot length of cable vs. a 30 foot length of the same cable. My guess is zero.
Holy Moly...you guys ARE old! How is it possible your hearing is even remotely still good enough ...
Let's please not make this about age because if you do, it's only fair to point out that the human brain doesn't finish developing until it's well into its 20s. Some of the renderings here suggest their authors are well south of that benchmark.
So let's please talk about audio and music and not judge others based on age.
I think most would agree that expectation bias works both ways. Those who are determined that there is no difference between lamp cord and 5k cable simply will not hear any difference no matter their age..... Although I generally find these naysayers are the last ones who would even try out a higher priced cable, not sure if it is because they are afraid they just might be proved wrong and suffer a catastrophic blow to the ego or their mindset just will not allow said trial to ever take place. I was a disbeliever I have seen the light...... Yes the same light that lamp cord should only ever be used for!
I have used plain copper lamp cord speaker wire until a friend gave me a pair of Nordost Valhalla Reference speaker ribbons. I have said that even if I won the lottery I would not have spent $5600/meter pair. But they did make a huge difference.
Some might find this Cable Snake Oil Antidote interesting with respect to LRC, the signal and the system.
Cables affect the sound and the effect is system dependent.
Another's opinion on a cable in a vastly different system may not be valid.
@geoffkait -
Since all wire is directional...
Directionality was also ignored... please point us to relevant tests or simulations or calculations showing deltas from reversing zip cord in the audio spectrum.
ieales @geoffkait - Since all wire is directional...
Directionality was also ignored... please point us to relevant tests or simulations or calculations showing deltas from reversing zip cord in the audio spectrum.
>>>>Find it yourself. Use the search engine. Let us know what you find out.
I most likely have not given enough time and effort to wire directionality. Goodness with all the sonic changes with burn in alone I guess I was too lazy to test for direction. I assume I can just test for the more pleasing sound directionally first and then just it burn in after. You have peaked my interest enough to start playing with direction.
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