It's being able to actually quantify these differences arrived at through characterization why people who understand the tech will accept audible differences in some cases and not others. There is a reason companies like Kimber and Mogami list electrical specs.
They should be able to measure Home Depot zip cord and ANY cable from
any other manufacturer and prove that the output from any of them is
exactly the same as the output from all of them.
We also do things like hang cables a few inches from a speaker at high volume and measure the signal with a typical preamp/amp impedance to show that vibration typically has no impact. Maybe we measure the voltage on a cable just sitting there with a typical preamp/amp impedance to show that it is near 0 debunking crazy notions of "static" voltage that require burn in to fix. |
Then again it may be due to nothing more than garden variety lack of listening skills.
I've written many times before about how when I first went component shopping back around 1991 I could not hear any difference between CD players and transports. One time I brought my Magnavox CDB650 to Definitive and they let me compare side by side with a $5k Wadia. Sounded the same to me. Another time about a week later same store a guy drove up from Portland to audition two CD players and was right there and we listened to both and he said sorry but they sound the same to me!
This went on for months, me struggling to figure out what it is people are hearing. Until one day I come home after having been to Definitive, put on a CD, and its Michael Ruff Poor Boy which is a superb Sheffield tube recording and it suddenly hits me THIS IS IT! Finally I make the connection!
From then on, in seemingly no time at all, it was easier and easier to hear differences between all kinds of things. Not just components and wires and cones but recordings.
Hand in hand with this improvement in listening skills was the ability to be able to say how the sounds are different. Looking back on it, the words actually came first. Reading Robert Harley has a whole section in his book. But its one thing to read about grain, how it can be coarse or fine, all gradations clear and pristine and then on to liquid and then on to syrupy, but its quite another to actually make the connection in your mind to realize what these things really do mean.
So I have said before and will continue to say until contrary evidence comes along that the people who think there's no difference, well they are right. For them there is no difference. Until they learn to differentiate there never will be. Because its not a matter of psychology, or opinion. Its a question of skill. And skills can be learned. If you want to be a good listener, its a skill you can learn. If you want to. But you do have to make the effort.
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millercarbon
Then again it may be due to nothing more than garden variety lack of listening skills. >>>>>Not to mention the garden variety of pseudo scientists. Like garden variety of snakes. 🤗 |
Nothing like a guy who sells "Magic Pebbles" ... Which are literally pebbles, probably of the aquarium variety in a bag as an audio tweak, and another guy who thinks cables will behave the same in all systems which is of course impossible (unless there is no audible difference). You two are like the negative of a call to authority. Call to ridiculousness? Perhaps if all cables matter proponents had even 1 .. just one spokesperson who could talk in any manner other than handwaving and "just trust me" sentences, you would have a better half leg to stand on.
Miller I will put my listening skills up against yours any day. This is what I do .... Except I listen and measure. I even have other people listen ... Lots and lots of people over many years. I have even written papers on critical Subjective listening. This tired argument about not hearing good enough is just that, tired, especially when coming from a group that as a whole has severely reduced hearing capacity.
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Miller, that you would even create this thread to me just shows insecurity about your position. If it was so obvious posts like this would never exist.
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Uh, he didn’t create this thread. Snap out of it, Mr. Smarty Pants 👖
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"Until one day I come home after having been to Definitive, put on a CD, and its Michael Ruff Poor Boy which is a superb Sheffield tube recording and it suddenly hits me THIS IS IT!
" Yes, good recordings may sound better than bad ones. Who would have known? |
Miller, that you would even create this thread to me just shows insecurity about your position.
Uh, he didn’t create this thread. Hilarious. |
Oh right, Miller's was the other triggered cable tread :-)
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Too late. Its simply not possible to ever recover from having so totally blown it. You might as well have said, "I’m Joe Biden’s husband, Joe Biden!" Just no possible way to ever recover from such a blunder. You can only go from hilarious to pathetic. Mission accomplished!
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It is possible to make an error, especially when multiple threads follow very similar ideas.
I would say that roberttdid's mistake was a silly mistake, but still just a mistake. It happens. |
One could say a broken record sounds the same on any player :-)
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roberttdid272 posts07-05-2020 4:18pmOne word Mahgister, religion.
And all the testimonies in this direction cannot be explained by an induced mass placebo effect taking place in several phases ...
Do you think that my work to increase my S.Q. at low cost by myself is religion? What do you think i think about your blinders? I think" religion"... A tech diploma or even a thesis in physics dont make someone immune to dogmas.... |
So I have said before and will continue to say until contrary evidence comes along that the people who think there's no difference, well they are right. For them there is no difference. Until they learn to differentiate there never will be. Because its not a matter of psychology, or opinion. Its a question of skill. And skills can be learned. If you want to be a good listener, its a skill you can learn. If you want to. But you do have to make the effort.
Good post.... Auditory hability are measured in Hertz perceived or not..... Listening hability are not measurable in this way.... All those debunkers are lazy or simplistic, when they equate perception of grain with illusion... :) |
Nothing like a guy who sells "Magic Pebbles" Before mocking someone try it.... Put a big shungite stone on your amplifier and after that put a big chunk of quartz.... Listen to the difference, and call that your first lesson in non conventional audio... I apologize, but i am tired of childish mockeries and games...
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I'd rather burn my money then waste it on shakti stones and other ridiculous tweaks.
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Wow, step away for a few hours to have some actual fun and it appears this thread has started to get interesting with believers and naysayers lining up like two dodgeball teams.
I am a little disappointed nobody ever has answered my question about the Finns. |
I'd rather burn my money then waste it on shakti stones and other ridiculous tweaks.
A woman who consult an astrologer is in the same boat that the professional debunker... They has faith, a positive faith in one case, a negative faith in the other case... I am a true sceptic, i study....And for Shakti stone and other tweaks i simply try with success at low cost to reverse engineering them.... Opinions without any studies or any experiments are not of any use .... Sorry.... |
Are we not all friends endowed with reason?
It is important to keep the humor and the "wit" without attacking anybody....
I apologize for my rant but.... |
mitch2, "I am a little disappointed nobody ever has answered my question about the Finns. " So it was not Nokia? With their "Connecting people" slogan? |
Nice try glupson but that is not the "connection" I was making. |
mitch2,
Ok, I will think some more. |
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For some reasons, people believe in engine break-in, but not in cable break-in ... like these two exist in different universe and obeying different laws of physics.
These threads all come to the same ... may I say happy endings lols.
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@andy2 That is weird! Especially with all those moving parts in cables. Just like a car engine. |
I haven't heard of engine break-in , in at least 25 or 30 years. They used to have break-in oil. That's really going back. |
That is weird! Especially with all those moving parts in cables. Just like a car engine.
The all have moving parts for sure. Also the are all made of the same stuffs - electrons, neutrons, protons ... which can all be affected by heat, frictions and so on. |
I haven’t heard of engine break-in , in at least 25 or 30 years. They used to have break-in oil. That’s really going back. One time I was test driving a brand new BMW M3, the car salesman sitting next to told me if I ever rev the engine above 4K, he would stop me immediately and would drive me back to the stealership. |
What is it today? Statements in all the threads became bizarre. I though full moon was last night. |
Dow Jones,
The last 5 motorcycles I've owned (3 BMW's, 1 Moto Guzzi, 1 Victory Twin) have all required break in.
Mitch2,
Is the answer they are all deaf?
robertdid,
"
I will put my listening skills up against yours any day. This is what I do .... Except I listen and measure. I even have other people listen ... Lots and lots of people over many years. I have even written papers on critical Subjective listening."
Weird... These are the same qualifications that "atdavid" had. Now go away.
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Weird, you seem triggered by anyone who dares question your world view. You seem rather fixated. Perhaps you should worry more about the lack of useful information in your posts and less about what others post. boxer125,006 posts07-05-2020 9:52pm
Weird... These are the same qualifications that "atdavid" had. Now go away. |
The last 5 scag zero turn mowers I had I didn't baby them they ran flat out from day one. Break-in myth still being peddled. |
^^^ So are you calling "engine break-in" is also a myth? |
All of this is subjective right? Is there any data that supports the gain or loss of quality? |
Chord company, Moon audio, Morrow cables, etc they all experience break-in for diverse electronic components and cables... I experience it myself... We are all deluded....Say those who dont experience it, dont want to experience it ,even if this could be possible, so strong is their faith in their "understanding" of electronics.... Fact cannot pierce blinders.... Debunker are tedious....No explanation can contredict a fact, that is at the basis of many working audio company.... Marketting tactic some say.... But there exist not only the testimonies of many people, customers or designers, but many reasons why break-in can be real ... https://hometheaterhifi.com/editorial/hi-fi-audio-component-break-in-burn-in-fact-or-fiction/This article explain some and the writer seems very competent scientist to me.... For sure this prove nothing, but i am a bit tired by the stupidity of cables threads, cables break-in threads and vinyl/digital threads, etc... A bit of common sense suffice to reach a conclusion....It is useless to create debates about these matters.... Sorry for my rant.... |
Is there any data that supports the gain or loss of quality? Another one who think that data completely replace reality.....Read the article i just post there is some data that go in the way of the break-in hypothesis....But there is no ABSOLUTE data that will replace reality and the experience of many people for the time being.... Ok i quit for the night... :) All of this is subjective right? No not all break-in are subjective experience only, amplifier or dac break-in exist base on the working cycles of some of their electronic components... Read the article.... Good night.... |
In engine break in there is a component (the rings) that literally moves to find the best spot. Care to tell me what "moves" in a cable during break in?
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Would it matter? Even if they did the naysayers will explain it away as they’re 10 percent nickel to iron, vs 5 percent. Or they’re gapped incorrectly, anything to keep it going. Why do they work so hard to try to convince anyone who will listen. I hear what I hear, and don’t care to convince anyone that they should also, whether i did or did not hear anything. Why should I care if someone can hear a difference, or not? If someone wants to spend because they feel it does make a difference for them, I have no objection to that. If you don’t hear anything, then there’s no need to spend. Everyone can be happy, so why is it that the some of the ones who can’t hear feel the need to rain on someone else’s parade. |
Care to tell me what "moves" in a cable during break in?
Electrons, copper molecules ... to name a few. And they move because of heat and friction ... just like the cylinder rings changing its property due to heat and friction. |
atdavid (robertwhatever),
This is audio, so hardly my "world view". Now why do you keep changing your name? |
Are atdavid and roberttdid the same dude? |
Robert, I hadn’t checked back for a while as noticed you gave a response to my first post on this thread. You know they barely have a meter how? You don’t know, and I’ve seen videos of some of their facilities, happened to see a lot of meters. As you’re well aware, I’m sure, they mostly claim they don’t say what they do, because they don’t want competition copying them. I have no idea how realistic that is, but I bet you don’t either, because you’re not in their industry to be in the know. Could it be an excuse they came up with so they wouldn’t have to say? Who knows. Despite what some have posted on the subject, turns out many of these guys are indeed electrical engineers, some of who got into the industry, or created their company after working for some time in other parts of the audio field. Don’t know a percentage, but have also seen interviews where this was brought up, unless they’re all lying about their past work history. How does each new generation of any audio product end up being “ improved”. Again, through interviews in magazines, or on video, seems most products go through some sort of audio tuning, where someone listens. And tweaks, unlit they’ve achieved what they were looking for. Before that some engineering went into what changes they were looking to make, and why, and what they were hoping to improve upon. I do find that many of them will talk about what improvements they were expecting to achieve, just are not as open with the techniques and materials in specifics they used to get there. Again, they claim it’s so that the competition won’t know, so hw come no one gives kfc grief for their secret recipe? Are the many millions of people who buy their daily being duped because it’s not posted? It must be another mass hallucination, lol. All fried chicken is really the same I suppose. All I know is that I don’t care for some, and I like others. And how would I be any better informed if I knew the secret recipe, or mcds secret sauce. Would that allow be to better tell my taste buds which one is better? Hearing is a sense just like taste, and just as subjective, which is why we can all,listen to the same mucus, but have different ideas about wether we like it or not. |
Speed bump, no one care if someone spends $1k or $10k on a cable. I do care when someone tries to convince someone else to spend $2k or $5k on a cable when that is a waste given the many other larger deficiencies likely in their system. Unless you have some pretty poor cables the cables are not the system bottleneck. $100 speaker cables that have no significant deficiencies or poor amp interactions on a $25k well designed speaker is always going to sound better than a $10k cable on a similarly designed $15k speaker.
Watch some videos posted by cable vendors. It's laughable the level of equipment many of them have. Don't take my word for it.
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Boxer and Andy, did this atdavid make you guys look a bit foolish too? I will have to read his/her posts. Maybe you two are the same person. Seem to hang around the same posts....hmmm
P.s. Andy electrons always move. Maybe not far but they always move. Interconnects do not really heat up ... So not much friction. Any idea of the current densities?
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No one is trying to force anyone to do any such thing. Come on. The guy who has 6k in his whole systems isn’t going to buy one cable for 3k, much less way more. That’s like saying Mercedes is trying to forces you to buy a maybach, or a black series amg. Their meat and potatoes are the lower models, and then there’s people who need a Chevy or Toyota price also. Let people make those decisions for themselves. You’re not protecting anyone anymore than if you were trying to tell someone not to buy a S series merc. |
robertwhatever,
It’s a "yes" or "no" question in regard to if you’re the same person as atdavid.
BTW, Andy & I are not the same person |
P.s. Andy electrons always move. Maybe not far but they always move. Interconnects do not really heat up ... So not much friction. Any idea of the current densities?
I forgot you "copy and paste" from the best so my hats off to you. P.S. Heat is measured on the Kelvin scale. So even at room temperature, there's heat, but ... ahem ... this is just science ... |
Ya gotta tip your hat to someone who actually uses the terms worldview and current densities. 🎩 😀
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I think Boxer and Andy are the same people. They both get offended when they don't understand the topic and they both make childish attacks when accurate statements are made that "offend them". Lots of posta, little added to the conversations.
I must say I love the childish "copy and paste" when you don't understand something. No one will ever see through that childish tactic ... Nudge nudge wink wink
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"Electrons, copper molecules ... to name a few. And they move because of heat and friction … "
If your interconnects get hot, you have a bigger problem than you thought. "And they move because of heat and friction …"
Was I misguided thinking that things may get hot because of movement and friction and not the other way around (like in the post I am quoting)?
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