The idea of this goes back decades. Amps and preamps (for the most part) are designed on chassis free breadboards, then voiced, THEN are packaged inside a chassis, which can be the weakest link to hearing what the designer intended. In most cases the chassis sidewalls and bottom are essential, but the top?
First off, beware that doing so will likely affect your mfg warranty, but, if you live in a pet-free, child-free home, then the benefits can more than offset concerns about something getting in that could harm the components. Case in point my Ric Schultz Class D EVS 1200, dual mono IcePower 120as2 modules. HOWEVER, unlike others using the same or similar modules, Ric then sprinkles many decades of modifying pixie dust all around them which are mounted inside an understated (sans bling) Italian sourced chassis.
When I ordered mine it was mandatory to purchase 2 Cubes ($200) which are to be butted up against each board, requiring the owner to remove the top. After doing so, I was anxious to put it in my rack so I could properly isolate it from bad vibes, when I should have listened with and without the Cubes and top.
Ric is also a proponent of weighing down components, but due to the unnecessarily large chassis, it barely fit in my rack, but I had a 5 pound divers belt lead weight that I squeezed in. Now, because RIc chose to put the mute toggles on the back I placed the amp on the first shelf from the rack's top (but out of sight out of mind: I never mute it when done listening), upon which was my CD player/Transport, which I raised up to provide ~ 2" of air space above the top of the 1200 and the bottom shelf of the player. Even though the rack is open on all sides with plenty of air space all around the rack, the amp ran warm
Fast Forward to yesterday. I was listening to Leonard Cohen Essential songs, mostly instrumentally sparse. I removed the weight; and found the music much more open sounding. Encouraged, I FINALLY removed the top. Honestly, I was not prepared for how HUGE doing so could be. It was like the music went from a confined space to an open air 3 dimensional venue. This is so amazing that I am going to get a handle on it via different music before removing the Cubes. Oh, and the amp is now cool as can be.
@cleeds Why do you need your eyes to listen to music? Why are you so against people confirming if they HEAR a difference by just using their ears and not knowing what changed ahead of time?
You realize that whatever you did to reach your subjective "conclusions" with your eyes open...you can do with your eyes closed...right???
Are you saying that the placebo effect doesn't exist? Confirmation bias?
Do any claims that have no justification in physics or engineering require no extra measures of verification?
Or do you just believe anything you read online and hide behind virtue signaling logic about "it's not my place to say anything".
It's clueless, gullible, and non science believing people that spawn snake oil salesmen in countless industries. You merely have to read it on a forum to believe it. Plus, you'll even run to your keyboard to defend the person if anyone asks for more scientific verification.
+ 1 Cleeds on both your posts. But you know some are demanding, and have a hard time accepting it when someone is enjoying their journey and wants to share it with others.
"If you thought about installing a electrostatic filter system then you could have both a topless and better sounding audio system and a house that was virtually dust free."
You are aware that dust is not electricity in any way?
CLICK BAIT!!! It did get me thinking as the title intended, tho. My 300B and 45 amplifiers may not be applicable to removal of the top plates and the tubes are already exposed. I WOULD enjoy seeing a nice pair of juicy Globes up there! Even my Preamp has eight tubes with exposed nipples!
If you thought about installing a electrostatic filter system then you could have both a topless and better sounding audio system and a house that was virtually dust free. Oh and add some UVC while your at it. All of the above works. Tom
If we don’t try to understand why then what’s the point? I guess we’re here to...read page after page of vague useless pabulum.
Based on participation on these forums, "we" seem to be fairly satisfied with the group, so please speak for yourself rather than pretend to speak for others.
If you’re not interested in what you read here, perhaps this isn’t the best group for you.
"...biases and placebo have been understood in science for decades."
They have been noticed and accepted, but not all have been fully understood.
At the same time, if someone feels there is a huge improvement in whatever they do to their amplifier, more power to them. I would not want to clean all the dust that settles on what used to be covered. That dust may negatively influence the sound and negate all the improvements gained by removing the cover.
I still do not understand why a person simply would not buy a better piece of equipment to begin with. Who has time to unscrew the cover, store the cover, clean the dust, and maybe something else?
Whatever. Different subject. Point is, the OP heard it. The question of why, of what exactly is responsible or the cause, is a completely separate issue from the fact a difference is heard.
djones is not saying prove to me its vibration control and not something else going on. djones is saying prove to me you heard a difference. Nobody can do that. How would they? Why would they even try? Least of all to him?!
@millercarbon It may not be all to do with vibration control. It may be caused by changes in the EM interaction between the electronics and the metal cover.
I’m here for real information not vague useless nonsense about removing case covers and hearing A HUGE improvement in my stereo.
Not thinking it through again. Do you even read what’s written? Or is that too inconvenient in your rush to deny and deride? Nobody said they heard a huge improvement in your stereo. They heard it in theirs. This is information. Good solid useful information. Which you then mock and deride. Because, reasons.
You require everyone prove it. Prove what? Their experience! Prove it to who? To you! But you have a record of being in denial of other people’s experience. So why would they waste their time?
The truth is people are lucky to have a place to come and learn. What do people learn? That changes make a difference, we can learn to hear them, and over time use this to improve our systems. You come along and say, "Prove it!"
No, djones, you prove it. You prove how it is that your constant denial has any value here whatsoever. You prove it. Until you can come back to us with a statistically valid peer reviewed double blind study showing the relevance of statistically valid peer reviewed double blind studies!
Hi, equipment cases do have a negative effect if not designed properly. Besides that some carry ferrous particles for a reason or not (easy to realise when placing a magnet on them). If too resonant, chassis resonance may be reduced by something like a sheet of EAR Soundcoat or similar. Vibration control is another topic and more elaborate to deal with.
They can post what they hear and I can post perhaps you heard it for a different reason. No one is obligated to test anything. I've had the top off amps before can't say it affected the sound, is that my test?
I'm here for real information not vague useless nonsense about removing case covers ...
This is a hobbyist's group, so it seems fair to me that that people are allowed to post the results of what they hear. Why should anyone be obligated to conduct tests to satisfy you? After all, you're free to conduct your own tests.
Really? Why? Could it be, because you don't understand the difference between someone relating their individual personal experience and the release of a statistically valid peer reviewed article in Nature?
I understand the difference between unsubstantiated subjective claims and verifiable objective phenomena.
I see. So you're here for all the.... lack of information. You would be content to come here and read page after page of vague useless pabulum.
I'm here for real information not vague useless nonsense about removing case covers and hearing A HUGE improvement in my stereo. If one says I believe there was a slight improvement then it could fly under the radar but to claim HUGE improvements should be fairly easy to quantify. Record a song with top on then off, Post a link the recording, HUGE improvements should be easily heard on my laptop.
Interesting subject. I'm from the "everything makes a difference"
camp...be that good or bad; but I do wonder about this. In particular,
over the years I have seen certain preamps with acrylic tops installed
to show the pretty innards. A Klyne pre comes to mind; and I've wondered
if that incidentally has any audible effect on the way that it sounds.
Of course it does. The reason is vibration control. The minute you start running a music signal through anything the whole thing starts vibrating. Its not only speakers, turntables- everything. This is why its so wrong to think of vibration control as isolation. Its not about isolation. Even somehow perfectly isolated you still have the problem of vibration generated internally within the component itself.
There are all different ways of controlling vibration. One is with mass. Adding dive weights literally results in a more tightly controlled presentation with greater bottom end foundation. You could call it weightier. If you wanted to be clever. Or accurate. Opening the component up by removing the top will, uh, open up the sound. Just like the OP heard.
This is not by the way conjecture. I've actually tried all this stuff. Heck you can see the blue dive weights on top of the Oppo player in my system. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367
They're there not because they're perfect, but because they're good enough. Its digital. Who cares? Never gonna sound good anyway. Good enough's good enough.
Long before the dive weights were on the Oppo they were on the Aronov. https://www.theanalogdept.com/c_miller.htm Notice the top and sides of the Aronov are removed. I listened to it both ways, it sounded better this way. Notice they are not on the Melody.
That's because its about vibration control. Like tuning a violin, no one can tell you what to do by remote control. Of course it will sound different with an acrylic top compared to metal. Or wood- or none. Which is better? You just have to try it, listen, adjust, listen, compare, and listen and tweak and listen some more. There is no substitute.
Roxy..my breaker box is in my audio room 40 feet from my transformer in the side yard. With 2 audio friends in attendance it was clear to me after them saying what ever I was doing is making a nice change..taking the panel off and then putting it back on as the music played. 10 years ago or there about that was. Tom
Interesting subject. I'm from the "everything makes a difference" camp...be that good or bad; but I do wonder about this. In particular, over the years I have seen certain preamps with acrylic tops installed to show the pretty innards. A Klyne pre comes to mind; and I've wondered if that incidentally has any audible effect on the way that it sounds.
Oh well your missing out on better sound before you enter the after life..maybe. There are other non ferrous materials that have vastly higher antistatic properties and are flame resistant that are used in food services and offer a sonic improvement. Tom
Why do manufacturers put products out that are not good enough, but require someone to pay the price and do it her/himself? Why just not buy a better product from the start?
What does it mean...
"When I ordered mine it was mandatory to purchase 2 Cubes ($200) which are to be butted up against each board, requiring the owner to remove the top."?
Why would $400 not be included in the price and factory pre-installed? Who sells this? LEGO? IKEA?
It puzzles me why anyone declares HUGE changes without taking into
account human biases.
Really? Why? Could it be, because you don't understand the difference between someone relating their individual personal experience and the release of a statistically valid peer reviewed article in Nature?
Now "I think there was a slight improvement but I
have no way to verify" , elicits no response from me.
I see. So you're here for all the.... lack of information. You would be content to come here and read page after page of vague useless pabulum.
Well that does explain a lot. Yes it certainly does. If only there were some way to verify....
I've done this for years. From my first phono amp in 1987. Absolutely makes a difference. Maybe it's the way my tubes are on their side but removing the steel lid opens up the sound. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/1593
It puzzles me why anyone declares HUGE changes without taking into account human biases. Now" I think there was a slight improvement but I have no way to verify" , elicits no response from me. Extraordinary claims and all, evidence beyond testimony would be a nice change.
It would be more interesting if this was all done blind to eliminate sight bias.
You must be joking. There's nothing at all interesting about conducting double-blind testing. It's a time-consuming, tedious process to do properly. That's the reason so few audiophiles have an interest in blind testing, and it puzzles me how often those who pretend to favor such tests suggest that it's others who should conduct them.
What about components designed and constructed with internal shielding to keep noise levels and distortion low? This strategy seems a bit counter to noise reduction if you inadvertently (intentionally?) are removing that part of the engineering.
I've been running one of my preamps without the top case on for a few days. I had a tube go bad and am waiting for the replacement, using the stock tubes for now. It's a pain to take off and on due to location. I don't notice any sonic difference, other than that the stock tubes sound really good and haven't had any of the issues I've had with NOS tubes.
It would be more interesting if this was all done blind to eliminate sight bias. Get some friends over who have good poker faces and have them do the deeds. If indeed the improvement is HUGE shouldn't matter.
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