Dear friends: This one works fine with the AT 20SS stylus replacement:
http://cgi.ebay.com/AUDIO-TECHNICA-AT15XE-STEREO-TURNTABLE-TONEARM-/140458706109?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20b3fdc4bd
Regards and enjoy the music, raul. |
Hello Raul ,
That combination works out to 220.00 approx. how does it compare to a Grado prestige with the 8MZ needle upgrade ?
same price ..... |
AUdio Technica AT140LC. I have one of these, and it appears that the AT155LC stylus fits this, which has been talked about here. It is also in the same series as the AR155LC.
I noticed the cartridge bodies though from the same series look different, and the AT155LC is 8.3g vs 6.2g for the AT140LC.
Is that stylus assy weight difference, or is it a better body on the AT155LC, meaning that performance wise, just adding the better stylus assy, does not make it an equal cartridge ? Thanks,
Wayne |
The Audio Technica cartridge naming system has to be the most arcane one ever devised by any manufacturer. It is impossible to guess the vintage, stylus type, or operating principle, unless you already know. Plus, they seem to have produced more different models of cartridges than anyone, ever. (I am sure some one of you will now enlighten me and show me how simple and logical it is.) For ambiguity, only Acutex can compete.
Anyway, I have an AT20SS, and that's it for me. |
Dear Weseixas: I don't know against that Grado ( I think Lewm could put some light here because he own that 8MS: I think? ) but for those 220.00 I can tell you that you will be nearest to the AT 20SS that's IMHO one of the best cartridges out there by any standard. 220.00 is IMHO a bargain because this quality performance could cost you in a today cartridge around 10K big dollars.
Regrads and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Of a half dozen NOS MM/MI that I've tried so far, AT20SS is probably the best.
In October TAS Harry Pearson praises seven "third- generation" MCs(ZYX Omega, Kubotech Haniwa, My Sonic Labs Eminent EX, Dyna XV-1T, Miyajima Shilabe, Clearaudio Goldfinger x.2, Benz LP S-MR). He also mentions that in a future review he will be looking at current production high-output MI/MMs that he has heard "now equal, maybe even surpass, the fabled strengths of MCs. Not one is an American design." Any thoughts as to what he might be thinking of? |
Dave, You like it better than the Pickering XSV3000? Raul, No, the only Grado I ever owned and still own is the TLZ. |
Lew, Pickering XSV3000 is a vivid & pyrotechnic performer but perhaps a little nervous. AT20SS is more "high-end" in terms of detail that doesn't call attention to itself and detail in balance with embodiment. There have been comments that AT cartridges sound bright, but this is not my experience. AT20SS is closer to the classic Empire sound but with better bass control. |
I have to confess that I enjoy the vivid presentation of the Stanton 981 LZS. Perhaps that is a family trait. Have not tried the AT20SS yet. |
I have Audio Technica AT20SLa in a Hadcock GH228 Super Arm. AT20SS it's so much better? Thank you ! |
Porto,
"Better" than the mentioned AT20 SLa, Stanton or Pickering?
Cheers |
Lewm said - Anyway, I have an AT20SS, and that's it for me Famous last words Lew, again? Frankly I don't beleive it :>) |
Dgob, Better than AT20SLa ? Thank you ! |
Porto,
Thanks. It sounds like fun.
Enjoy |
Dear Porto: I agree with Dgob, you only need to buy the AT 20SS stylus replacement. One source is this:
http://www.stereoneedles.com/audio-technica.html
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Dgarretson: ++++ " current production high-output MI/MMs that he has heard "now equal, maybe even surpass, the fabled strengths of MCs. Not one is an American design." Any thoughts as to what he might be thinking of? +++++ ".
Other than Grado and SS I think that almost all the MM/MI today cartridges comes from out side USA: Clearaudio, Ortofon, Audio Technica, Goldring, Audio Note, Reson, Garrot, Rega, Sumiko, Nagaoka, Cartridge Man, Shelter,etc,etc.
Hard to say which one he choosed.
regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
I absolutely agree with Dgarretson, that mirrors my experience exactly, he can also say it better. I have the AT 20SS from LP Gear, anyone have experience with the one from stereoneedles? |
Dear friends: Another good AT opportunity :
http://cgi.ebay.com/Audio-technica-AT-15SS-new-AT-20SLa-stylus-/140459645468?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item20b40c1a1c
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear friends: Another one:
http://cgi.ebay.de/Audio-Technica-AT-20SLa-Limited-Edition-Top-Ordnung-/190448183260?pt=Plattenspielerzubeh%C3%B6r&hash=item2c5798a7dc
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Just scored a NIB Sonus Blue Gold, which at 50 cu will be my highest compliance cartridge yet. A web search suggests that it wants very positive VTA and 1.25gm. Any thoughts regarding optimal set-up for this one? As there are reported cantilever failures I want to take care. |
Hey, DU. I can safely say that I seem to have lost the bug to buy ever more vintage cartridges, now that I own nearly 10 that I have not heard at all, not to mention the 4 or 5 that I have been listening to. The unheard cartridges include a few Acutex's, Empire 1000ZE/X and D4000/III, AT20SS, AKE P8ES and P8Evandenhul, B&O MMC1 and MC20CL, Pickering XSV3000, and Stanton 881 MkII. Not a bad lineup and one that makes me feel as if I have eaten a full 7 course dinner already. Meantime, I have a broken monoblock amplifier that so far has resisted all my thoughts on what could be wrong with it. And I cannot entrust it to anyone else, since I built it from an Atma-sphere kit about 10 years ago and have since modified it so many times that Ralph would barely recognize it. Thus my system has been out of commission for nearly 6 weeks. (I don't get too much time to work on the amp.) Plus severe illness in my family puts it all way on the back burner. |
Lew, your cartridges can live for another day. Even for your retirement if necessary.
Take care of your family first. Then get that amp working.
I realize you are wise enough not to need this advice, but a little friendly encouragement never hurts.
Best wishes with all these issues, and in the order suggested. ;-) |
Lewm,
All the best with the family matters. Your priorities seem unquestionable. |
Hi Lew
sorry to hear about the family illness. yes hifi takes a very long 2nd place on these occasions.
all the best |
Dear Dgarretson: This cartridge needs 20-30 hours to settle down ( especially the HF range. ), after that needs a positive VTA that I can't say " very positive " but this set up is on your own. Yes, 1.25 grs on VTF and I don't have any trouble with its suspension but I don't put many hours in any of my cartridges so I can't say for sure if that problem exist or was only a cartridge failure as many other cartridges has different kind of failures over time.
It is a good cartridge indeed.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Lewm: I hope God help for that illness in your family can solve in good shape for all of you.
Sincerely, Raul. |
Raul, Thank you for the food for thought. I don't post here very often. I spend most of my time over on two other forums but this thread was interesting.
I owned many models of MM cartridges years ago and never found them very fulfilling. In 1979 I tried a Denon DL-103D and that was that. It had the transparency, speed and balance of sound that I find attractive. Since 1979 I have only used DL-103s (103D, 103R and 103M) and have graduated to retipped versions of the 103D which sports a better cantilever and stylus.
Most of my problems with MM cartridges had to do with their lack of transparency or what I guess the reviewers call "air". I remember my favorite of all the MMs I tried and that was the old ADC XLM II Improved. I also owned an ADC XLM III but can't recall its sound other than it was also fairly good.
I also owned many different models from AT, Signet, Pickering, Stanton, AKG and quite a few Shures. From a standpoint of type of sound I would say its fair to say that ATs and Signets (which were the same company) tend to sound a but strident unless they are loaded down sufficiently.
The Shures that I owned were far from satisfying and the best of those was the V15III. They all fell short somewhere but the V15III had the most musical character and drew less attention to itself.
The AKG was pretty good (I think it was an 8es?) and the Pickering and Stantons never did anything that was objectionable. I am sure there were others but thats all I can remember.
If I understand electronics well enough there is a price to pay whenever we place a filter into a circuit. I believe there are effects on harmonics of the primary frequency. That is why tone controls are frowned upon and not in vogue in the design of modern preamps. Tone controls are either non-existent or there are specific switches to eliminate them from the signal path within modern equipment.
That is why I don't get why its not a bad thing when we start by loading down a MM cartridge. If analog filters do impart non-linearities on the signal then it seems reasonable to assume the same thing happens to the small signal exiting the MM cartridge.
The loading circuit for the MM cartridge looks like a low pass filter to me and don't those introduce some issues? I mean we are talking about the same sort of thing that makes tone controls undesirable. Except we are applying the filter to a very small signal.
Of course this is my understanding and I tend towards a purists point of view where less processing is better. It just seems like a bad idea to start the signal chain with a low pass analog filter...thats all.
Ed |
Hi Samski, I've been using the Emotiva XPA-5 with my HT/Stereo sys with great results, with my Salk Songtowers (I have the center and small surrounds as well) with a MFA-15 sub from AV123. My primary source for the stereo system (2 songtowers w/o sub) is a Garrard 401 with Sutherland phono stage. An Onkyo 885 controls the HT with a Pioneer Elite Kuro FD-151 plasma panel for movies & Verizon FIOS for cable feed. It's been great. -bird |
Guys, Thanks for all the sympathy. I really do appreciate it. |
Dear friends: IMHO is worth to try the B&O alternative before disappear, this is very good oportunity:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Vtg-BANG-OLUFSEN-MMC-2-PHONO-TURNTABLE-CARTRIDGE-MMC2-/280569076124?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item415338599c
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Hey Lew, hope all goes we'll for you.
Ed, I see your point. With MM you use the proper resistance and capictance at the input of your phono stage. The resistor is already there if you are using MC and capacitance can be achieved with your cables or with a capacitor. This seems simpliar than dealing with a low output cart like the Denon that would need additional gain with proper loading too, preferably without additional resistors involded.
Brad |
Ed, Would you care to expand on your point? I don't get it. Are you referring to adding or subtracting capacitance? No one here is talking about "loading down" an MM cartridge. There has been some discussion about optimal resistive load with preferences ranging from 33K to 100K ohms and occasionally beyond that. Raul and many others have often expressed a preference for the high end of that range, i.e., 100K ohms. Such resistances can hardly be described as "loading" in the sense that one loads down an MC cartridge. Messing with the capacitance would typically be done to comply with the recommendations of the manufacturer. |
I was wondering what everyone who has tried their cartridges at 100k instead of the normal 47k thought about the difference. Did it make a noticeable improvement or was it worse than before. I know Raul likes 100k on his system but I did not know what other people thought that has tried it. I would have to solder 100k resistors in my phono stage to try it and wondered if it would be worth the trouble. |
Seems to be cartridge- and capacitance-dependent. I will let others chime in. I can tell you that 100K with no added capacitance (i.e., just the capacitance of cables and the input stage, which is typically negligible) sounds best with the Grado TLZ. |
Greetings, Edainwestoc: You've made a statement that perhaps a quote from an informative thread at VE would help answer:
"Increasing the capacitance will lower the frequency of the resonant peak and start the high frequency roll off at a lower frequency. It is usually high inductance cartridges that need low capacitance the most. I know capacitance loading was used in the past to tame treble, but it doesn't work to good. It produces a peak closer to the midrange. It will eliminate very high frequencies, depending on the cartridge, but it's really not an ideal solution as a filter for a ringing preamp or to realize the high frequency capabilities of a phono cartridge. For high fidelity, the best filter is no filter. As stated previously, 47K is NOT a real standard. It's there by default."
From a (my) layman's perspective, adjusting loading and capacitance of MM cartridges is a requirement in matching the inductive and resistive qualities of a cartridge. Dismissing the electrical/mechanical parameters of a specific cartridge's design as irrelevent results in deviations from RIAA equalization and less than optimum cartridge performance.
Those interested might refer to:
http://www.vinylengine.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6674&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
Pages 14 through 17 are especially informative.
Edainwestoc, please be aware any loading or capacitive adjustments are effective prior to preamplification. Alternative capacitors or resistors simply offer a different value and do not act as "filters" or in any way serve to introduce additional circuits or connections contributing to further degradation of cartridge signal. As there are many who are more qualified to respond, any corrections or additional insight regarding the above are welcome.
|
Timeltel, Thanks for that interesting reference. If memory serves, MC cartridges with very low internal resistance (e.g., <10 ohms) typically also have a very low inductance, in the micro-Henry range (as you might expect given the low number of turns on the coil), as opposed to the mH values given in that thread for MM cartridges. Thus it is not surprising that the optimal loading of the two types of cartridge is also about 1000X different and proportional to inductance. |
After several hours break-in of Sonus Blue Gold on Trans-Fi arm fitted with my lightest carbon eggshell/foam core wand, Sonus surpasses AT20SS by any measure. There is more of everything coming through. I assume this owes to particularly good synergy between 50 cu compliance and the light 2" wand. However set-up is twitchy, requiring on-the-fly trimming of carriage level to correct tracking problems on some records, depending on the extent of dishing under pressure of the record clamp. In any case, for the moment high compliance rules... |
It is interesting to know that the performance of the Sonus Blue Gold, which I also own in NOS form, surpasses the AT 20SS. I think, I will try it either on an AT 1120 or AT 1100 to see how it would fare against some of my other MM cartridges such as the Technics P205 mk4, ADC TRX-2 and Ortofon M20FL Super etc in comparison. |
Dave's tonearm is very special at this point, so it might be misleading to rank cartridges based on their performance in his set-up. If someone else, such as yourself, were to report a similar observation, then we have a trend. |
Lew(m): Hope all is well with you, thanks for the response and yes, the VE thread answers most questions. Pages 14 through 17 are the "Cliff's Notes" portion but the development of the thread over a two-year span has been interesting to follow, the OP's initial proposition of lowest (capacitance) is always best is "soundly" refuted.
It seems most who frequent this thread tip-toe around the subject, one that enthusiasts should be aware of the effect of, if not the cause. Aparently the introduction of resistors/capacitors in ->series-> is the main contributor to disrupted signal. Without proper application to achieve needed res. (k Ohm) & cap. (pF), cartridge performance will not meet electrical criteria and the potential of the cartridge will not be heard. IMHO this is the source of so many descriptions regarding, for example, the AT440MLa as "ear bleedingly" shrill or the Shure V15-111 as sounding "dead". With proper resistance/capacitance neither is so.
A side-bar: Last night I enjoyed a mint first pressing of J. J. Cale, "Troubadore" using a Shure ML140HE, a N120HE stylus instaled. Smooth, relaxed, great blues inspired guitar and quirky lyrics. Later, Sadao Watanabe, "Rendezvous", a laid-back sax driven jazz influenced album. Roberta Flack performs vocals on three tracks, very torchy. Japaneese pressing and played with a Signet AM20, nude minature elliptical (me) stylus. Excellent recording and mastering technique with both albums, both performances are exemplary examples of artistry as opposed to commercial commodity. Each cartridge is well suited in timbre and harmonics for each Lp and each require a different capacitance value for cartridge optimalization. Those who dismiss MM cartridges as second-best should invest a little time and effort in examining their opinion for unwarranted industry implanted bias, plug and play MM's it ain't.
Edainwestoc, Ed: Is it possible you have made improvments to your rig since 1979, perhaps you might dig one of your old cartridges out and give them another spin?
Dgarretson, I enjoyed your comments, will they get a rise from (regards,) Raul? |
Timeltel & Lew, I am among the untouchables with only one turntable and tonearm, so for the purpose of addressing cartridges of varying compliance I am forced to the prosthetic of interchangeable arm wands of varying composition and weight. The lightest of my wands as used with Sonus BG has an effective vertical mass of several grams or less. I am going to fabricate a flat wand with thread-on weights both front and back. With that approach it should be possible to optimize effective vertical mass for each cartridge and to make apples-to-apples comparisons between MC and MM cartridges of widely varying compliance. |
Hi Timeltel,all
I have three MM phono preamps,a modified EAR 834P,World Designs WD Phono3(with premium parts Teflon V-caps,Takman resisters,etc.)and the phono stage that is built into my Symphonic Line main preamp.The WD Phono3 gets used the most.None of these have adjustable capacitance and resistance loading.Both the EAR and WD have 100K loading and the Symphonic Line is 47K.
I see some people mention how important capacitance loading is,but it seems a lot of phono stages simply don't have adjustable loading built in.I like all my MM cartridges,I own some TOTL models from Empire,Signet and Technics,plus two P-mounts mentioned on this thread, the Andante P76 and Azden YM-P50VL.Also bought a Technics P100C MKIV that is on its way to me.
Just looking at my cartridge spec sheets,most recommend 100pf except the Azden is 100-300pF and the Signet does not even list this spec.Why would I need to have adjustable capacitance to get the most from my cartridges when it seems all the models I own want to see lowish capacitance?What is the right way to add adjustable capacitance to a preamp? |
Hi, Travbrow. Why? Differences can be subtle, many cartridges will do fine at around 200pF, but (manuf. data): ADC XLM-11, 275pF. AKG P8E, 400pF. Empire 2000Z, 300pF. Orto. VMS20E, 400pF. Shure V15-111, 400-500pF. Stanton 680E, 275pF. It's pretty much that you don't know it's wrong until you've heard it when it's right. As Edinwestoc noted, it does function as a low pass filter, but dampit, IT'S ALREADY THERE. The only change is in value, this is what moves midrange resonance down and tames the hf's in the V15-111, making it more than just listenable.
An alternative: The Advent Model 300 reciever was traditionally used (Tom Holman designed the phono section) as a phono pre. It was designed to eliminate impedance interaction between preamp and cartridge, thereby assuring that RIAA equalization/frequency response is always that of the cartridge used. The tuner was legendary, too. Here's a link to a marvelous paper Mr. Holman presented to the AES convention, 1975, you'll be pleased you read it:
http://www.davidreaton.com/PDFs/Holman_AES_paper.pdf Trav, you also asked a technical "how" question, time now for me to bow out of this one. Peace. |
Travbrow,
Can I ask where you found the Technics P100c Mk4: only I have a friend who has been frantically searching to no avail?
Many thanks |
Thanks Timeltel,I see some models do call for high capacitance.Maybe this is why the Shure V-15IV I had didn't float my boat.Anyway,most of my models are rated at 100pf.The Technics 205CIIX and 205CII for example both have a frequency response graph,the loading used was 50kohms and 100pf.
Hi Dgob,I bought the EPA A505 armwand and P100MKIV set that is listed under tonearma. |
Kcc123, Look forward to your impressions of Sonus BG. Of all the cartridges I've tried this one has been the most finicky and revealing of problems of geometry, so be patient! |
Travbrow,
Many thanks. We're on it.
Cheers |
Timeltel, Do those recommended capacitance numbers assume 47K ohm resistive load? The $64 question is how to vary capcitance in relation to resistance. One would think that if R goes up, C goes down proportionately, to maintain the same frequency effect. |
Dear friends: An opportunity to own the Nagaoka MP-50 Super version:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Nagaoka-MP-50-phonograph-cartridge-10-hours-/250705687270?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a5f3932e6
not easy to find out only a few were made.
Regrads and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear friends: I want to " disturb "/take your attention all of you to read this thread:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1286160563&&&/Magic-on-Cleanse-Electrical-Power-quot;-
that I think has many subjects where we could " think " and where we could take some advantages to improve our system quality performance.
I really appreciate your contribution/comments and experiences on the thread subjects. Sharing your information could help to all of us.
Thank you in advance.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |